Slightly Cloudy

[E2Grunt]

Hey I have an AGP that is about 12,000 gallons. The PH, TA, and CA were reading low. I brought the CA back up. Then added 5lbs of soda ash to help with the PH. It only showed a small increase and the water was just slightly cloudy. After 24hrs I added another 5lbs of soda ash. Now all of the chemicals are reading in the proper ranges but the water is cloudy. What do I need to do? Run the pump some more for longer duration? Vaccum?

[imnay]

Hey I have an AGP that is about 12,000 gallons. The PH, TA, and CA were reading low. I brought the CA back up. Then added 5lbs of soda ash to help with the PH. It only showed a small increase and the water was just slightly cloudy. After 24hrs I added another 5lbs of soda ash. Now all of the chemicals are reading in the proper ranges but the water is cloudy. What do I need to do? Run the pump some more for longer duration? Vaccum?

If all levels read in the good range then I would shock thoroughly and then run the filter a bit longer than normal. Over the 20 plus years we have had a pool we have NEVER tested for nor worried about cyuranic acid (stabilizer) levels - it just never mattered.

If we test and have good chlorine levels then all is well. If we can't get good chlorine levels we assume too much stabilizer (chlorine is "bound") and we use liquid chlorine to shock - the more the chlorine is "bound" the more it takes to achieve a thorough shock - once a good shock achieved the problem is solved.

I don't claim to be a "pool chemist" - I can only share our personal experience of over 20 yrs with our pool.

If PH and Alkalinity are in optimum range via your test kit then do a thorough shock and filter, filter, filter. Things easily become out of whack until the water is perfectly stabilized at good levels and then all should clear up and be easy to keep that way.

Good Luck

[chem geek]

If all levels read in the good range then I would shock thoroughly and then run the filter a bit longer than normal. Over the 20 plus years we have had a pool we have NEVER tested for nor worried about cyuranic acid (stabilizer) levels - it just never mattered.

As noted in this post of yours, you regularly add (copper-based as you noted here) algaecide to your pool. That's one reason the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level doesn't matter because you are preventing algae growth through regular use of an algaecide. This little piece of information is critically important so you should include it in your advice rather than just waving off CYA as an issue. Otherwise, people won't look at CYA and won't be adding algaecide (at extra cost) either and in many cases they will get algae in their pools. If you look at posts about algae in other pool forums (say here or here) you will find that the #1 reason is too low a Free Chlorine (FC) level relative to the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level and that the CYA has typically gone very high through continued use of stabilized chlorine without a lot of dilution and they do not use an algaecide.

You also have been fortunate not to have copper metal staining, given that you never measure such levels, but your pH does not get too high due to use of Trichlor and you have a vinyl pool that wouldn't stain as readily as a plaster pool. Nevertheless, many pool users using copper-based algaecides report staining, especially in plaster pools, or have reported blond hair turning greenish (is anyone using your pool a blond?).

Also, as you noted in this post you let rains overflow the pool so between that and filter cleaning you are getting significant dilution that helps keep CYA levels lower. This is another critical piece of information you do not consistently mention. Not everyone lives in that sort of climate nor has such water dilution as I describe below.

[EDIT] As noted in this post you use an inline chlorinator (with Trichlor pucks/tabs). In some posts you claim you've never had a problem in 20 years (this one, for example), but in this post (and this post) you talk about 3-4 times where the chlorine got so bound up that you had to use extreme shock measures and in this post you describe algae in the water upon your spring opening and in this post you describe having to shock the pool to get rid of cloudiness around every 4-6 weeks. This is all in spite of using a copper-based algaecide. Though the cloudiness could be nascent algae, it could also be organics in the pool that are getting oxidized too slowly because your CYA level is too high. People who maintain their pools with a proper FC/CYA ratio and don't let the CYA keep climbing are able to keep their pools clear without shocking. [END-EDIT]

The advice to never look at Cyanuric Acid (CYA) levels in spite of using stabilized chlorine (e.g. Trichlor) as a primary source of chlorine can lead to problems in some pools in addition to just algae if no algaecide is used. In my own pool 6 years ago using Trichlor pucks in a feeder, it only took 1-1/2 years (11 months of "in-season" use) for the CYA to climb from 30 ppm to 150 ppm at a low 0.8 ppm FC per day chlorine usage. I used (linear and PolyQuat) algaecide every other week and started to get unusual chlorine demand and dull water (an impending algae outbreak), but lets say I had followed your advice and diligently used algaecide regularly (I should have used it weekly). I would have put off algae and my CYA would have continued to climb at the rate of 100 ppm per season. Remember that I have an opaque electric safety cover that had a pool cover pump so no rain overflow and I have an oversized cartridge filter so no backwashing and only needed cleaning about once a year so minimal water dilution. After 3 years, getting to a CYA of 300 ppm and assuming I just maintained the Total Alkalinity (TA) at 120 ppm, then at a pH of 7.5 and CH of 300 ppm my calcite saturation index would have been -0.55 which would have started to dissolve or pit my plaster and it would have only gotten worse after that. If one lets the CYA rise, then one needs to let the TA rise as well in order to protect plaster/grout since one-third of TA is from CYA that does not protect plaster (i.e. is not carbonate). Of course, you have a vinyl pool so that is not an issue for you, but would have been an issue for me with my pool as well as others with pools that have plaster/grout. As I wrote in another post, you should not project your personal experience onto everyone else's pool.

By the way, did you ever decide which you use to raise the TA -- is it baking soda (see your post here) or is it soda ash (see your post here and many other of your posts)? Soda ash raises both pH and TA while baking soda mostly raises the TA with less of an effect on pH. Most pH Up products (such as this one) are sodium carbonate (soda ash) while most Alkalinity Up products (such as this one) are sodium bicarbonate (baking soda).

[chem geek]

Hey I have an AGP that is about 12,000 gallons. The PH, TA, and CA were reading low. I brought the CA back up. Then added 5lbs of soda ash to help with the PH. It only showed a small increase and the water was just slightly cloudy. After 24hrs I added another 5lbs of soda ash. Now all of the chemicals are reading in the proper ranges but the water is cloudy. What do I need to do? Run the pump some more for longer duration? Vaccum?

I'm unclear as to whether your "CA" means "Cyanuric Acid (CYA)" or "Calcium Hardness (CH)". Which is it? You can input numbers into The Pool Calculator and if the saturation index is > 0 then you have a combination of pH, TA and CH that is too high and that may be the cause of cloudiness since soda ash will raise both pH and TA. You can then lower the parameter that is too high or if it's only a little high then the pool may clear after more thorough mixing.

If, on the other hand, the cloudiness is algae growth, then you will need to shock the pool with chlorine.

[waterbear]

If all levels read in the good range then I would shock thoroughly and then run the filter a bit longer than normal. Over the 20 plus years we have had a pool we have NEVER tested for nor worried about cyuranic acid (stabilizer) levels - it just never mattered.

As noted in this post of yours, you regularly add (copper-based as you noted here) algaecide to your pool. That's one reason the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level doesn't matter because you are preventing algae growth through regular use of an algaecide. This little piece of information is critically important so you should include it in your advice rather than just waving off CYA as an issue. Otherwise, people won't look at CYA and won't be adding algaecide (at extra cost) either and in many cases they will get algae in their pools. If you look at posts about algae in other pool forums (say here or here) you will find that the #1 reason is too low a Free Chlorine (FC) level relative to the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level and that the CYA has typically gone very high through continued use of stabilized chlorine without a lot of dilution and they do not use an algaecide.

You also have been fortunate not to have copper metal staining, given that you never measure such levels, but your pH does not get too high due to use of Trichlor and you have a vinyl pool that wouldn't stain as readily as a plaster pool. Nevertheless, many pool users using copper-based algaecides report staining, especially in plaster pools, or have reported blond hair turning greenish (is anyone using your pool a blond?).

Also, as you noted in this post you let rains overflow the pool so between that and filter cleaning you are getting significant dilution that helps keep CYA levels lower. This is another critical piece of information you do not consistently mention. Not everyone lives in that sort of climate nor has such water dilution as I describe below.

The advice to never look at Cyanuric Acid (CYA) levels in spite of using stabilized chlorine (e.g. Trichlor) as a primary source of chlorine can lead to problems in some pools in addition to just algae if no algaecide is used. In my own pool 6 years ago using Trichlor pucks in a feeder, it only took 1-1/2 years (11 months of "in-season" use) for the CYA to climb from 30 ppm to 150 ppm at a low 0.8 ppm FC per day chlorine usage. I used (linear and PolyQuat) algaecide every other week and started to get unusual chlorine demand and dull water (an impending algae outbreak), but lets say I had followed your advice and diligently used algaecide regularly (I should have used it weekly). I would have put off algae and my CYA would have continued to climb at the rate of 100 ppm per season. Remember that I have an opaque electric safety cover that had a pool cover pump so no rain overflow and I have an oversized cartridge filter so no backwashing and only needed cleaning about once a year so minimal water dilution. After 3 years, getting to a CYA of 300 ppm and assuming I just maintained the Total Alkalinity (TA) at 120 ppm, then at a pH of 7.5 and CH of 300 ppm my calcite saturation index would have been -0.55 which would have started to dissolve or pit my plaster and it would have only gotten worse after that. If one lets the CYA rise, then one needs to let the TA rise as well in order to protect plaster/grout since one-third of TA is from CYA that does not protect plaster (i.e. is not carbonate). Of course, you have a vinyl pool so that is not an issue for you, but would have been an issue for me with my pool as well as others with pools that have plaster/grout. As I wrote in another post, you should not project your personal experience onto everyone else's pool.

By the way, did you ever decide which you use to raise the TA -- is it baking soda (see your post here) or is it soda ash (see your post here and many other of your posts)? Soda ash raises both pH and TA while baking soda mostly raises the TA with less of an effect on pH. Most pH Up products (such as this one) are sodium carbonate (soda ash) while most Alkalinity Up products (such as this one) are sodium bicarbonate (baking soda).

Chen geek, this person just goes to Ace Hardware and dumps in whatever they tell him. You can tell by his posts you linked to that they are clueless about pool care and their 'advice' is more than suspect! I particularly like the two where they cannot decide if baking soda raises TA or pH!

One thing I can tell you. I would NEVER swim in a pool they were caring for!

[Jedi John]

My pool was cloudy at the beginning of the summer. Some pool clarifier from Wal-Mart cleared it right up.

[quantumchromodynamics]

If pH, calcium and alkalinity are low, first add the calcium by dissolving a maximum of 1 pound in 4 gallons of water in a 5-gallon bucket and pouring it in the pool. Repeat until you have added the total amount. Only use calcium that is equal to or greater than 94 % pure. Calcium chloride is available in two forms. Regular flake calcium chloride (ASTM D 98 Type 1) contains a minimum of 77% CaCl2; concentrated flake, pellet, or granular calcium chloride (ASTM D 98 Type 2) contains a minimum of 94% CaCl2

Then wait 12 hours to let the calcium become fully accepted into the water. Then raise the alkalinity with baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and wait 12 hours before retesting the alkalinity, calcium and pH. You will find that in almost every case there is no need for pH increaser (sodium carbonate).

Never add any calcium-containing product within 12 hours of adding pH increaser (sodium carbonate) or alkalinity increaser (sodium bicarbonate).

Never add pH increaser (sodium carbonate) or alkalinity increaser (sodium bicarbonate) within 12 hours of adding any calcium-containing product.

If your pH is dangerously low, address that first with baking soda. I almost never use pH increaser. I find that using baking soda to raise the alkalinity will almost always bring the pH into perfect balance.

If I really want to avoid raising the alkalinity, then I will use pH increaser. The primary time that I would want to avoid raising the alkalinity is when the pool has a SWCG (Salt Water Chlorine Generator) and the increased alkalinity could cause the pH to rise too much and it could also cause the S.I to be too high.

Note about cyanuric acid: It is very important to test for and maintain a proper level for cyanuric acid.

Note about copper: Copper will get in your hair, fingernails and possibly even your teeth. Hair, fingernails and possibly teeth, will become blue or green. Copper should not be added to your pool.