Aroma Therapy

[TinyBubbles]

Ok biggz, the spa crystals by spazazz are indeed magnesium sulfate (epsom salts), aloe vera(hadn't thought of that one) and essential oil fragrances.

[biggz]

Ok biggz, the spa crystals by spazazz are indeed magnesium sulfate (epsom salts), aloe vera(hadn't thought of that one) and essential oil fragrances.

'TinyBubbles', Yes tiny, It's the same ingredients used though out the bed bath industry in their bath produces. Try Calgon. The fact is the Manufacturers of these so called spa safe products are marketing at inflated price points simply because Hot tub or Spa is on the bottle. The same product can be had for a fraction of the cost and may offer true medical benefits so when you're sitting in the tub relaxing the thought of how little you pay for Aroma Therapy will be more enjoyable. If you don't like what's out there make it yourself.

[Dr. Spa]

[interesting discussion of epsom salts here

Apparently I don't have clearance to read that one. I'll make up my own story about Epsom Salts. I'll share it with you all later.

Sorry, I missed part of the link. Try again.

Anyone else find it odd that at the top of the page it says;

recommended by a licensed physician

but than at the bottom of the page, in little itty bitty tiny letters it says;

Nothing contained in this site is or should be considered, or used as a substitute for, medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. We advise users to always seek the advice of a physician.........

[biggz]

[interesting discussion of epsom salts here

Apparently I don't have clearance to read that one. I'll make up my own story about Epsom Salts. I'll share it with you all later.

Sorry, I missed part of the link. Try again.

Anyone else find it odd that at the top of the page it says;

recommended by a licensed physician

but than at the bottom of the page, in little itty bitty tiny letters it says;

Nothing contained in this site is or should be considered, or used as a substitute for, medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. We advise users to always seek the advice of a physician.........

'Dr. Spa', I don't find it odd at all. What you are partially quoting is the websites disclaimer. It is a normal practice for websites that offer advise to post a disclaimer. Particularly medical advise. This protects the site and the physician from potential litigation. I doubt many physicians would write articles offering their recommendations without a disclaimer in place. What's odd? Here's a link giving a historic perspective on aroma therapy See link:

http://www.aromatherapypoint.com/history-of-aromatherapy

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that sitting in a tub of hot water is not enough. Apparently throughout history soaking with various herbs (salts) and scents have been a normal part of health retention. Knowing this reinforces my purchasing a tub in the first place. But what's more exciting is that I have alternative choices regarding the products poured into the tub and not be handcuffed to buying a so called spa specific product.

[TinyBubbles]

My hubby and I were soaking last night and discussing the use of "products" in the tub. Damn him, he said something that made sense and now I don't know about adding them. My statement "We use them in our bathtub, so why not in the hot tub". His response "Yeah, but you drain the bathtub every time you use it". So what do you think? Are you at all worried about the products building up over time? I kinda think they might wear out the filters quicker. On the other hand, they are considered organics and we are shocking and using ozone to gobble those up. Argh, my brain hurts.

[chem geek]

There is a big distinction between the minerals (salts) that get added, such as Epsom salt, regular salt, borates, calcium, baking soda vs. oils and fragrances. Only the latter are organic and I recommend avoiding them -- especially the oils. The fragrances are in low enough concentrations and are volatile so that they should outgas and dissipate and breakdown readily. It's the oils that are of more concern (i.e. products with "essential oils").

As for the mineral salts, you would NOT add them every time you get in. They do build up so once you get to the level you like, you stop adding them until the next refill. The water just stays at the desired level of mineral content. The mineral salts will not clog up anything except for the case of over-saturation of calcium carbonate -- so be careful adding calcium or baking soda or Spa Up (sodium carbonate) though the latter is rarely added to a spa since most spas tend to rise in pH. Measuring the TA and adding baking soda if it gets too low is fine since the carbonates from the baking soda essentially outgas into the air when you aerate the water.

Richard

[lindal]

I bought a 10 pound bag of Dead Sea Salts to use in the Aqua Glass whirlpool tub in the house.

I was wondering if I could use them in the spa.

They are actually dead sea salts, no additives, no perfumes, etc. I know that the place I buy them from sells 30 and 50 lb bags. I thought that they use them in commercial spas but I wasn't sure so I have not tried it in our tub.

From what I am reading here it would take at least a half a bag to make a difference in the water. I don't use very much in the large tub inside. I have psorasis and it helps if I soak in the dead sea salt water some times.

[chem geek]

From what I could find about Dead Sea Salts here, it is mostly magnesium and potassium chloride with some sodium chloride and a small amount of calcium chloride, but also has bromide and sulphates. The amount of calcium seems small enough that even getting to a total 1000 ppm or so of salt content the calcium added would be < 10 ppm so that's fine. What concerns me the most is the bromide since that is 0.5% by weight in the salt so if you added enough salt to get to 1000 ppm total, then 5 ppm would be bromide and this would roughly correspond to 10 ppm bromine (as ppm Br2). In effect, this turns your spa into a bromine spa -- not a terrible thing, but something you might not have otherwise expected. Eventually, the bromine should dissipate (mostly through outgassing) and your spa will return to being sanitized by chlorine.

By the way, from this link it would seem that bath salts should be at a concentration of 2% to be effective (according to them). However, that corresponds to 20,000 ppm which can be corrosive over time. This is approaching the salt concentration in the ocean (around 3.5%). I would not expose pumps and other metal parts to that level of salt for extended periods of time. Doing this in a bathtub that is mostly not metal and then draining it is one thing, but putting this much into a hot tub or spa is far riskier to the equipment. When you eventually drain and refill the water after 3 months, you'd also be adding a lot of very salty water into your sewage system. Municipal water districts have a hard time dealing with high levels of chloride in the water as it's not easy to remove inexpensively so unless you live near an ocean where such processed water can be released, then you've given the water utility a problem.

Richard

[RickJ]

When you eventually drain and refill the water after 3 months, you'd also be adding a lot of very salty water into your sewage system. Municipal water districts have a hard time dealing with high levels of chloride in the water as it's not easy to remove inexpensively so unless you live near an ocean where such processed water can be released, then you've given the water utility a problem.

Richard

I guess I wouldn't want to water my lawn with it either. I was reading this, and thinking of trying salts since it's almost time for a water change anyway. But I just realized that the saltwater could kill my grass, and possibly any other plants near the end of my drain hose.

[chem geek]

I guess I wouldn't want to water my lawn with it either. I was reading this, and thinking of trying salts since it's almost time for a water change anyway. But I just realized that the saltwater could kill my grass, and possibly any other plants near the end of my drain hose.

People on other forums have reported mixed results when dumping salt water onto their grass, though most had no problem. It probably depends on the frequency and concentration of the salt as well as the quality of drainage and amount of watering with non-salty water that is done. If you go with 1000-1500 ppm, this probably is not a problem. Most people were talking about their 3000 ppm saltwater chlorine generator (SWG) pools. However, if one went with the 2% 20,000 ppm (which has other corrosion issues as I mentioned), then I would expect that to be far more serious. It's all a matter of degree.

Richard

[lindal]

I use bromine not chlorine anyway. I may try it since I am ready to change the water.

Thanks!

[biggz]

I guess I wouldn't want to water my lawn with it either. I was reading this, and thinking of trying salts since it's almost time for a water change anyway. But I just realized that the saltwater could kill my grass, and possibly any other plants near the end of my drain hose.

People on other forums have reported mixed results when dumping salt water onto their grass, though most had no problem. It probably depends on the frequency and concentration of the salt as well as the quality of drainage and amount of watering with non-salty water that is done. If you go with 1000-1500 ppm, this probably is not a problem. Most people were talking about their 3000 ppm saltwater chlorine generator (SWG) pools. However, if one went with the 2% 20,000 ppm (which has other corrosion issues as I mentioned), then I would expect that to be far more serious. It's all a matter of degree.

Richard

'chem geek', Richard how much dead sea salt could be used in 300 - 400 gallons of water safely? Please explain in terms of ounces.

[chem geek]

1000 ppm is parts per million which is equivalent to milligrams per liter. 1000 mg/l = 0.134 ounces weight per gallon so in 350 gallons that's 46.7 ounces weight (almost 3 pounds). You could probably go to 1500 ppm, or 50% more, without a problem, but I wouldn't go too much higher than that, especially if you have a copper heat exchanger. We're not talking about fast corrosion, but it's best to minimize the risk.

[biggz]

1000 ppm is parts per million which is equivalent to milligrams per liter. 1000 mg/l = 0.134 ounces weight per gallon so in 350 gallons that's 46.7 ounces weight (almost 3 pounds). You could probably go to 1500 ppm, or 50% more, without a problem, but I wouldn't go too much higher than that, especially if you have a copper heat exchanger. We're not talking about fast corrosion, but it's best to minimize the risk.

'chem geek', So lets say for example if the user of DSS (Dead Seas Salts) applied 1 oz of salt each day over a 30 day period the user would still have a 16.7 oz latittude before potentially seeing problems? Maybe we can use a more realistic time period. Say the user over a 90 day period ( the recommended tub water replacement point) applied DSS every other soak, say 45 soaks (if used daily) the user still wouldn't reach the point that they would potentially see problems? I'm getting dizzy.

[chem geek]

No, salts don't work the way that chlorine and MPS do as salts don't get used up. So you don't add them daily. Instead, you add a whole bunch -- all 3 pounds or so, at once and then leave it that way until the next time you change the water at which point you need to add another 3 pounds to the fresh water.

The claim about the body absorbing the magnesium and sulfate from the Epsom salt is not something where your body is going to be absorbing pounds or even ounces of this stuff. I doubt very much that even after 3 months the salt level is measurably different (at least not less). Technically, the continued use of chlorine will add salt (as sodium chloride). All chlorine sources add, for every 1 ppm FC, about 0.8 ppm salt while bleach adds about double that or 1.6 ppm salt. So after 3 months of adding 4 ppm FC with bleach, you add 576 ppm salt and I'm sure that makes up for any splash-out.

Richard

[TinyBubbles]

Just something else to throw into the mix....what about the salt precipitating out of the water? Anyone that's ever had a saltwater aquarium knows what I mean. You end up with salt crusting around the top of the tank, filters, wall behind it, etc. With salt water pools anything metal left in the pool (toys, lawn chairs, etc.) rust quickly. Limestone or other soft stones will etch. I'm curious if the diverter valves, control panel, cover, and skirt of the tubs are going to do well with this. The way the water in the hot tub is aggitated(for lack of a better word), the water is splashed around on everything and the water will dry up, leaving the salt behind. What do you guys think?

[TinyBubbles]

I should have added this info: the salt in saltwater tanks is measured by specific gravity. I'm not sure how this translates to hot tubs. If I remember correctly, on start up, I added anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 cup salt per gallon. Clearly, they have a much higher salt concentration then someone would be adding to their spa. In my freshwater tanks I would add salt to help the fish fight disease. I would only add a tablespoon or 2 in a 50 gallon tank and it would still leave a salty crusty on surrounding areas. Chemgeeks post about bromide is definately something to consider. I thought that I had seen bromide listed as bromide salts or salts of bromide. Chemgeek, I had heard that once you put bromide in a spa, it will stay there until you drain tub. You mentioned it would dissapate and return to a chlorine spa. I've, also heard that chlorine is converted to bromide in a bromide tub. Can you expound on this? I wonder if adding large amount of salt to the tub would void a warranty. I would think that it would be hard to disguise the fact that it had been used, if someone examined your equipment. Right now Biggz is rolling his eyes, saying warranty schmarranty. I get the idea your a "roll the dice" kinda guy.

[biggz]

Just something else to throw into the mix....what about the salt precipitating out of the water? Anyone that's ever had a saltwater aquarium knows what I mean. You end up with salt crusting around the top of the tank, filters, wall behind it, etc. With salt water pools anything metal left in the pool (toys, lawn chairs, etc.) rust quickly. Limestone or other soft stones will etch. I'm curious if the diverter valves, control panel, cover, and skirt of the tubs are going to do well with this. The way the water in the hot tub is aggitated(for lack of a better word), the water is splashed around on everything and the water will dry up, leaving the salt behind. What do you guys think?

'TinyBubbles', Tiny, If Spazazz is putting the same ingredients in their "mineral fragrance" product and selling it as a spa safe product, I don't see the danger of using 1oz of product to help mask the smell of a sanitizer and add a therapeutic benefit although small at that measurement. Richard said the use of 3lbs would n't have any adverse effects if I read him correctly. Either way it's still an alternative to using "Cool" or "Energy" and spending $10 per bottle ($8 on the web) when I could buy a salt based product that's less expensive and has a history of awarding healing to me the user.

[TinyBubbles]

No, I wouldn't worry at all about using the less expensive product. I was worried more about the suggestion of adding "pounds" of salt or dead sea salts to the spa.

[chem geek]

Adding pounds of salt to get to 1000-1500 ppm is not without side effects. I had already talked about the increased risk of corrosion, but also said that this was less than half the salt level found in 3000 ppm saltwater chlorine generator (SWG) pools. So if you have a copper heat exchanger in your gas heater, then it is safer not to go with this extra salt route (in the large quantities described). The corrosion risk to stainless steel or to corrosion-resistant materials is very low (but still higher than not having that much salt). Obviously, if you have a warranty that says you shouldn't use salt or that it voids the warranty, then you are taking a risk if something goes wrong. I'm just trying to give out facts as best as I know them -- you have to decide for yourself what makes sense to do in your situation.

As for precipitation -- I think you mean evaporation since the salt won't fall out of solution in the tub itself (i.e. won't just form at the bottom). It will, however, build up if there is splash-out and evaporation, especially if done over and over again. However, the amount of salt is rather low. So yes, if you have coping or other stone outside of your tub and there is a lot of splash-out and the weather is always hot without summer rain (to dilute the salt), then this could damage your coping. This is most especially true for Epsom salt and to a lesser extent to the Dead Sea Salt since Magnesium Sulfate is the worst for "salt crystallization pressure" that fractures stone (it's worse compared to ordinary table salt, sodium chloride).

As for the "once a bromine spa; always a bromine spa", that's pretty much true until you next refill. There is some loss of bromine over time if you don't add any. Otherwise, you would never need to add any sodium bromide or a feeder with BCDMH that continues to add bromide/bromine to the water -- instead you would only add chlorine or MPS to convert the bromide to bromine. So there is some loss of the bromine atom, but the only way I see that loss is through evaporation into the air, probably as hypobromous acid. After all, you do smell a bromine smell in a bromine tub. I just can't quantify the rate of loss -- it might be very slow. I've read here that the use of BCDMH may make it more difficult for the bromine to go away. It would appear that the DMH portion may act somewhat like CYA does for chlorine and reduce the effective bromine concentration and therefore it's rate of loss. If anyone has tried both bromine methods -- sodium bromide (plus chlorine or MPS to shock) vs. BCDMH in a feeder, then if the former has more bromine smell than the latter, then perhaps what I wrote is what is going on.

As for chlorine getting converted to bromide, that is not true. What happens is the following, both in formulas and in words:

HOCl + Br- --> Cl- + HOBr

Chlorine + Bromide --> Chloride + Bromine

That is, the chlorine converts (activates) bromide into bromine while the chlorine gets converted (inactivated) from chlorine into chloride. MPS does something similar as follows, where "persulfate" is the active portion in the MPS product.

SO5(2-) + Br- + H2O --> SO4(2-) + HOBr + OH-

Persulfate + Bromide + Water --> Sulfate + Bromine + Hydroxyl

So the activation of bromide to bromine from MPS is an alkaline process, but MPS itself is acidic so these partially cancel each other out -- there is still some net acidity to the MPS even after the above.

Richard

[biggz]

No, I wouldn't worry at all about using the less expensive product. I was worried more about the suggestion of adding "pounds" of salt or dead sea salts to the spa.

'TinyBubbles' , You're right. I'm not going to put pounds in either. Just a little occasionally.

[biggz]

No, I wouldn't worry at all about using the less expensive product. I was worried more about the suggestion of adding "pounds" of salt or dead sea salts to the spa.

'TinyBubbles' , You're right. I'm not going to put pounds in either. Just a little occasionally.

I recently came across some additional salts I wanted to share with the board. It may be of interest. Hopefully this new information will help what ails ya.

http://www.queenhelene.com/batherapyhome2.php

I tried the "Sport Batherapy Salts" and WOWWWWWWWW that's some good stuff.

[TinyBubbles]

I actually use that brand in my bathtub. You put them in your spa?

[B0Darc]

I prefer the warm smell of Cohiba or any other fine hand selected smoke out of the humi.

I think this is another "Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus" situation. See? Men prefer a cigar and a snifter of Remy whilst the women prefer lilac and peppermint. Hmmm so lets devise some of our own solutions... since were broke from spending so much money on an outdoor bathtub. I think we can mostly agree that aroma therapy works on a pleasure level via the olfactory sense... uh your nose. Delivering scent to your nose should be simple enough, candles seen like an obvious winner... but the question is how to get YOUR favorite scent or range of scents to your nose while in the tub? ...and not damage or reduce the functioning of the tub?

Adding stuff to the water also seems obvious, but you can feel the resistance (!) Also the prohibitive costs of over-the-counter solutions begs for a solution. Let's try some stuff! Most scents can be purchased in concentrated form... what about just good old fashioned perfume? I would have to guess the solvents in these WILL melt acrylic and we certainly would not want that. So a delivery system to make our own aromatherapy solution for the hottub? Using custom scents or perfumes? Don't want it in the water or ON the plastic shell of the hottub? Can't be breakable (no glass) Personally non-toxic, and otherwise safe (oops fell on the ground and the puppy found it first!)

hehehe just occurred to me the driest place in the spa is my wife's head... so like a shower cap with a little spongy thing on top you could put a few drops of concentrated scent on? So aromatherapy shower caps? <patent pending!~> hmm just some kinda absorbent spongy thing that is totally protected from the bottom (affect the plastic shell) but allows scent to ~waft? See how this works? I'll let you guys give it a shot.

The basics of aromatherapy aren't too voodoo and someone above has laid it out in good basic terms... like peppermint is wakeful and lavender is relaxing etc. You should be able to get these in concentrated form locally... type in "peppermint oil" and your city's name into google... you know the drill. I bet a some may even be available at your drug store. I say avoid the artificial scents which are not from the original source as these will also likely be the most chemically corrosive if they somehow got spilled/contacted your hottub's acrylic shell. Most of the over the counter scents we didn't like anyway as they just smelled like a certain brand of soap. Ladies for your husband you might try using a small amount of HIS favorite perfume on our as-yet-to-be-perfected safe spa aromatherapy delivery system. Hey could be as simple as a paper towel in a coffee cup, but hopefully I have inspired someone enough to share their own good idea... as opposed to thinking they could start their own whole new business selling aromatherapy shower caps (don't make me hunt you down!)

Hey I can't do the whole thing I'd have to charge ya

Oh and for the MEN... just go grab ya a nice Maduro and a Glenfiddich and call it a day.

[standard disclaimer] Never follow any of my advice. While I may be my brother's keeper I am NOT the keeper of his hottub. If you damage your hottub because you spilled that Hi Karate you bought at that yard sale back in '82 all over the cover and it instantly melted... don't have your people try and contact my people... I don't have any "people" ... just good smelling ASCII hugs {{{Bo}}}

[Dr. Spa]

Man you type a lot, and make it all confusing. AND still haven't solved the Mars Venus problem though.

Lets just go the easy routs. A rubber band and a ball of cotton.

1. Put rubber band around head, resting on upper lip

2. Put a few drops of fragrance on cotton ball.

3. Insert cotton ball under rubber band on upper lip.

4. Enjoy smellie stuff.

No patent required, no charge, and safe for kids and animals.