Did My Electrician Screw Up?

[D.P. Roberts]

My electrician just ran the electric for my spa yesterday. Our spa is 40 amp, but when talking to him he said he was doing a 50 amp installation, as that's standard with them.

I didn't think to ask him about the wire, as I know nothing about electricity. This is also the electrician that my dealer uses for most of his installations. However, in looking at his bill I noticed that he used 90' of 8/3 Romex. From the little research I've done, it looks like 8/3 Romex is only rated up to 40 amps.

1) Is this wrong? Could 8/3 romex on a 50 amp spa be a fire hazard? Is this against code?

2) If my spa is only 40 amps, am I okay?

[Bond]

1) Is this wrong? Could 8/3 romex on a 50 amp spa be a fire hazard? Is this against code?

2) If my spa is only 40 amps, am I okay?

1) 8/3 were I live will not pass code for 50 amp.8/3 is used for the most part in homes to wire up a range.Romex is a wrong term used by many electricians.Romex is not the correct name for this wire It came from the Rome Wire Company, which originally produced the wire so electricians gave it the name Romex.Its true name is NMD 6/3.This means non metallic sheath dry.To be used only in dry locations.

2) If your spa is name plate rated for 40 yes the wire is o.k. but were I live the Gfi and breaker must be changed to 40 amp.The breaker protects the wire fom melt down.The Gfi serves the same purpose but also protects the spa user rom electrocution.

[Bond]

I found this info on the web.

I've heard electricans mention "romex." What is it?

It's often used in a generic sense to refer to any type of non-metallic sheathed electrical cable. More to the point, it's electrical wiring sheathed in a plastic coating.

Then why is it called "romex"?

It comes from the Rome Wire Company, which originally produced the wire. Now the Romex brand is owned by Southwire and is an actual trademarked brand.

[Pathfinder]

Have him either change the breakers to 40 amp or run 6/3 wire. You cannot use 8/3 on a 50 amp breaker.

[avasicek]

If your spa mfg says your spa draws 40 amp at max capacity (all components on), then you can not step down to a 40amp GFCI without neusance tripping. You can only use 80% of the capacity of a GFCI or it wont meet code (which in most areas means, your liable if something happens, a service co. can refuse to work on it, and it may void your warranty with said manufacturer).

Not to mention that 90' is also a pretty respectable run at 40 amps, 8/3 wire. That alone should have had him consider stepping up the wiring to avoid voltage drop (depending on your climate) even if it was legal at 50amps.

If your manufacturer says your spa requires a 40amp gfci then the the spa likely requires only 30ish amps and the wire would work, but the gfci is to big.

[TinyBubbles]

This is one of those times when I'd trust my dealer. That's why you chose them right? If they have dealt with these spas and with this electrician for a long time, surely they know what to do. I'd call your dealer and run it by them and if they think it's wrong, then call the electrician back. If they say you are ok, then relax. I have a 60 amp spa, 50 amp gfci, 6/3 wire (I would have run 8/3, but since it's under my pavers we beefed it up incase there is a bigger spa in our future). We ran this by an electrician, my dealer and a brother-in-law that is an engineer. When my dealer told me to use a 50 amp gfci I was puzzled, based on the spa being 60 amp. He said to trust him, that it's more than enough for that spa. He's been in business 26 years and I chose to use a dealer, instead of buying online. So, I chose to trust him. My brother-in-law, the engineer, just moved and wired his spa (which is bigger than mine) with 70ft of 8/3, I'm not sure what size gfci. He does this all day long for a living, so I trust his judgement as well. Oh yeah, we haven't had the breaker trip so far and we've had the tub on with all pumps running, lights and heater on. I sent you a message about the subject, but then decided to throw it out here as well.

[biggz]

D.P. Roberts, I have a 60 amp breaker on the main panel with a 50 amp GFCI and a 50 amp tub. It has not tripped since being installed. If your not sure ask the dealer like "Tiny" said. He should know since he sells the tub.

[TinyBubbles]

Thought I'd share a quick tub wiring story. Our tub was delivered in the afternoon and my hubby was acting like a mad man trying to get the wire ran from the gfci to the panel. He accidently bought low voc "stuff" for the conduit and cussed all the way to home depot(a 45 min. drive from our house). He was determined to get in the tub that night. He was working in the dark with me holding a flashlight. We finally had everything finished and only had to to put the 50 amp service in the panel and wire it up. NIRVANA. So, he takes off the cover and oopsy, he had added all kinds of stuff to the panel for a home theater in the basement, but hadn't labeled the box. So those empty spaces he thought he had weren't there. Whoa, you want to talk about an angry man. He was even angrier because he has a detached garage with it's own service that has tons of empty space on the panel, but was farther away, so we didn't use it. Fortunately, I was calm enough to think of getting rid of something we don't really need. We built our own house and have all kinds of things wired on their own and extras for Christmas lights etc. So we got rid of a breaker for a deep freezer in the garage that we know longer have and moved up another wire to it's place, freeing the last 2 open spaces in the panel. PHEW!

[kengorman]

1) Is this wrong? Could 8/3 romex on a 50 amp spa be a fire hazard? Is this against code?

A few things:

According to the NEC 310.16 table, 8 AWG is rated to 50 amperes in the 75°C column. 8 gauge wire is not necessarily the wrong wiring. There are other factors to consider, including where the wiring is run (e.g. in a hot attic, you'd have to de-rate the wire for temperature) or the length of the run.

Some would go with a higher gauge if the run was long to compensate for voltage drops. You indicated he charged you for 90 feet. Was the run 90 feet?

Here is a voltage calculator to determine voltage drops.

Calculator

For a 90 foot run, with a 40-amp load, using 8-gauge the voltage drop is less than 2%. Many electricians don't upsize the wire for voltage drops unless the drop exceeds 3%.

Contrary to the other responses you've recieved, from what you wrote thus far, I don't necessarily think the electrician did anything wrong.

I'm a little confused - you indicate "Our spa is 40 amp" but then ask "Could 8/3 romex on a 50 amp spa"

Is your spa 40 amp or 50 amp?

I don't understand this statement:

Our spa is 40 amp, but when talking to him he said he was doing a 50 amp installation, as that's standard with them.

What does "a 50 amp installation" mean? Does that mean he installed a 50 amp breaker in your main panel and a 50-amp gfic spa disconnect?

Also, you indicated he charged for 8/3 Romex. Did he use the same wire both inside and outside? Did he use one type of wire from the main panel to the disconnect and then another type from the disconnect to the spa?

Also, what make and model spa do you have?

Regards,

Ken

[Bond]

I take it that the electrician took out a permit to wire up the spa?Ask for a copy.

Give a call to your local electrical inspection office and ask them what wire and breakers will pass code.They will tell your installation does not meet code.Then I would find another dealer and new electrician.

[bams10]

I recently installed a 8/3 wire with a 50A breaker with a 35' run and works fine.I questioned my dealer about the 8/3 not being heavy enough,and he explained that their is a 20A +30A breaker in HS sub panel, one for heat one for pumps and your not drawing 50A on any line. Made sense to me.

[D.P. Roberts]

I take it that the electrician took out a permit to wire up the spa?Ask for a copy.

Give a call to your local electrical inspection office and ask them what wire and breakers will pass code.They will tell your installation does not meet code.Then I would find another dealer and new electrician.

Some of this has been answered in my "SPARKS FLYING, TUB DEAD!" thread. Anyway, now that my mini-crisis is over:

1) My wife called our county engineer's office, & they said that 8/3 Romex would pass inspection in our case. She specifically told him a 90 foot run above our garage, a 50A breaker in our electrical panel, and a 50A disconnect by the spa. It sounds like it wouldn't pass inspection in most other parts of the country. Weird.

2) My spa is a 1998 Sundance Tango. The owner's manual gives the option of a 20A, 30A, or 40A installation. We chose 40A, as that would allow us to run the pump on high and the heater at the same time. I don't know how much the pump and heater actually draw.

3) It's probably more like 60-70 feet from the panel to the disconnect (over and across a 2-car garage), then another 10 feet in-ground in conduit to the spa. As far as I could tell it's all the same wire.

3) When the electrician arrived, he said that they do a 50A installation as standard, as most tubs are rated for a 50A installation. Being that our "new" tub is 10 years old, I'm hoping to get 3-5 years out of it before replacing it- probably with a larger tub rated for 50A. It sounds like what I should have asked him to do - and asked for a written estimate on - was to run 6/3 wiring and install a 40A breaker & disconnect. Instead, I have 8/3 wire and a 50A breaker & disconnect. So, if I want to install a bigger spa in a few years, I'll probably be able to keep the electric panel and disconnect box "as is", but run new 6/3 wire. Does that sound about right?

4) TinyBubbles, thanks for your message. I'm sorry I didn't respond, I was too busy trying to figure out what was going on, but I appreciate the effort.

5) You'd think I would have learned my lesson from my previous tub's installation. I bought a tub that was 50A or 60A: the 60A allowed both pumps and the heater to be on at the same time. The electrician didn't ask, and I didn't tell him, but I would have preferred the 60A install. Instead, they did a 50A installation, as that was "standard" back then too. You'd think electricians would ask these questions before giving bids or starting projects (or perhaps the lesson here is that I need to be more careful in finding electricians).

[kengorman]

1) My wife called our county engineer's office, & they said that 8/3 Romex would pass inspection in our case. She specifically told him a 90 foot run above our garage, a 50A breaker in our electrical panel, and a 50A disconnect by the spa. It sounds like it wouldn't pass inspection in most other parts of the country. Weird.

Not weird at all. I previously wrote:

Contrary to the other responses you've recieved, from what you wrote thus far, I don't necessarily think the electrician did anything wrong.

Your local authority is complying with the National Electric Code which allows 8 awg for your application. The length of the run isn't long enough where voltage drops wold be a factor. The cable isn't in any high heat areas (like an attic) where the cable would have to be derated because of temperature.

I'm glad you checked with the local officials for your own peace of mind. Best of luck with your spa!

Ken

[r1juice]

is the 30 amp breaker for the heater or pumps? (50a-1 20a-1 30a)