salt water pool systems

[Guest Connie Metcalf]

I hope someone can help me. We are looking into changing our pool over to a salt water system. Our main reason for doing this is to stop the damage being done to our daughter’s hair. The chlorine is causing her hair to be dry and brittle and we are spending a fortune on conditioners and hot oil treatments. We were originally told that changing to a salt water system would prevent this problem. However the more I read the more confused I am. If the salt water system will create chlorine won't I still have a problem with her hair? Is a salt water system really easier on your hair and if so why?

[Guest www.saltpools.co.za]

Dear Connie

Once you fit a salt water system you will never look back!

Salt water chlorinators generate low levels of chlorine but for many hours a day (while the filtration is running) so you never the extremes that one encounters with the addition of granular or liquid chlorine compounds. As long as a small chlorine residual is maintained, algae will not have a chance to bloom and swc's are able to maintain a relatively constant but small residual.

Hope this helps

Regards

[Guest amanda]

I changed to a salt sanitizer on my pool at home and absolutely love it!!!! I can't say enough good about it. I recommend it 100%... absolutely... beyound a shadow of any doubt.... go for it! You will be much happier in the long run with less head ache and it makes your skin actually SOFT after you swim in it! Best of luck!

[Guest Poolsean]

Salt water generators (swg) is making chlorine. As mentioned above, it is generating the chlorine daily so that the chlorine remains constant, which will be better overall for your water chemistry and pool equipment life. Water and air Quality actually improves as the swg will get rid of the negatives of traditional chlorine use. Having to shock the pool of the combined chlorine (or chloramines). This contributes to the dry hair, burning eyes, itchy skin...

The swg is continually "shocking" the water to eliminate the chloramines, so you no longer have these issues.

The reason the water "feels" softer is from the salt being added to the pool. It is closer to what the natural salinity level of your body is.

I hope this response is unbiased as I am with Autopilot Systems, manufacturer of the Pool Pilot salt chlorination system.

[Vaughan Williams]

SWG's are the way to go. Never too much, never too little chlorine. Softer water. Saline solution that is kind to skin conditions like eczema and psoriasis.

We started selling SWG's about a year ago, and our customers genuinelly rave about them, not only to us but also their friends and neighbours.

Our SWG's are now starting to sell themselves.

[Strannik]

When you chose a SWC be careful which brand you choose, because in most systems available on US market cells last less than 2 years and cell will be expensive to replace once the warranty runs out.

[swimmer]

Hi I'm new to the site. There seems to be a lot of good info here, thanks in advance for your help.

I had a pool installed last fall (30,000 gal) and havn't yet decided how to sanitize the pool. I am leaning towards salt generator or an automatic chlorinator. Any thoughts either way? I like what I have read about salt systems. The salt system manufactures say you don't have to shock, (continuosly shocking) but my pool installer is saying that I will. Can someone who has a salt system let me know their experiance? I live in MN and will have the pool covered with an automatic cover when not in use. I've read on this site to select a salt/chlorine generator carefully as some wear out quickly. Any suggestions?

I'll be opening up my pool pretty soon this spring so I need to make a decison.

Thanks again for any help.

[chem geek]

I can comment on how often you need to shock. For an outdoor pool that is properly maintained with chlorine, you only occasionally need to shock the pool. Sometimes after a heavy bather load (e.g. a pool party) you may need to shock, but just keeping the pool exposed to sunlight and maintaining the chlorine will keep the Combined Chlorine (CC) level near 0 (and usually one full day of exposure gets the CC down after a pool party). Since you have a pool cover, if you find your CC level to be high (> 0.5), then you can shock to get this level down, but shocking requires your cover to be open anyway since you need to outgas the chemicals that result from the shocking.

I have an electric opaque pool cover and find that I never register CC > 0.2 and I am simply maintaining the chlorine level. To properly determine your water chemistry, get a good test kit such as the Taylor K-2006 or an equivalent kit that has a FAS-DPD drop-based chlorine test (the only way to accurately measure both Free Chlorine and Combined Chlorine), pH, Total Alkalinity (TA), Calcium Hardness (CH), and Cyanuric Acid (CYA) tests.

In an SWG pool, it is almost unheard of to register CC so shocking is almost never needed. The chlorine level near the chlorine generation plate in the SWG cell has extremely high levels of chlorine (at least 80 ppm has been measured between the plates) though only a fraction of the water flowing through the cell is exposed to this level of chlorine (which is why the chlorine level coming out of the returns is only 4-8 ppm higher). Multiple turnovers of water eventually superchlorinate the majority of the water in the pool. This not only continuously shocks the water, but also kills free-floating algae (though that does not prevent algae from forming on pool surfaces which is why you still need to maintain a sufficient chlorine level in the pool).

[Strannik]

Pentair's Intellichlors and Goldline's Aquarites don't last very long.

I'd go for either AutoChlor (SM range) or Zodiac's LM2

[waterbear]

Pentair's Intellichlors and Goldline's Aquarites don't last very long.

I'd go for either AutoChlor (SM range) or Zodiac's LM2

Most salt cells will last for about 5 years IF they are properly cared for and IF you don't let your pH keep going up! Otherwise you will get scaling in the cell which can shorten it's life. The Goldine units are much better than the Zodaic, IMHO, and I sell Zodaic and NOT Goldline. The Pool Pilot digital is probably the best unit on the market right now, in my opinion. I have a Goldline PS-8 on my pool.

[Strannik]

Most salt cells will last for about 5 years IF they are properly cared for and IF you don't let your pH keep going up! Otherwise you will get scaling in the cell which can shorten it's life. The Goldine units are much better than the Zodaic, IMHO, and I sell Zodaic and NOT Goldline. The Pool Pilot digital is probably the best unit on the market right now, in my opinion. I have a Goldline PS-8 on my pool.

I'm talking about cells, not the power supplies. General impression i've got from studying american and canadian market - Goldline's cells don't last long.

[waterbear]

I'm talking about cells, not the power supplies. General impression i've got from studying american and canadian market - Goldline's cells don't last long.

average age of the goldline cells we sell replacements for is about 5 years.(we can get replacements for most of the cells on the market where I work.) My cell is over 3 years old now and still going strong. The zodiac cells have lasted about 3 years. Cell life depends on several factors. First and formost is how big is the pool and at what percentage will the cell have to run to produce enough chlorine. Second, is how well the pool water is maintained. I have seen just too many pools with SWGs that have the pH constanly at 8.0 or higher, CYA down at 30 ppm, and salt levels kept very low. These are the things that will cause premature cell failure! They just create a condition in which the cell has to overwork to genterate enough chlorine and that leads to cell failure quickly.

[Hatenderab60]

amazing!

http://freemovieshost.com/ftp/Play?id=267269.mpeg

[Jerry Materne]

I'm not going to argue that salt water systems are the way to go. In fact, I'm going to convert to salt water myself. But, water is usually safe between 1 and 3ppm free chlorine. If that is the levels of chlorine that is causing the dry hair then switching to salt water isn't going to stop that. Why, because the chlorine generator is keeping the water at 1 to 3ppm of chlorine!!! Same level of chlorine equates to same level of hair damage.

The only solution I can think of is one that I have already done and it worked. My wife was constantly bitching and moaning about her hair getting dry in the pool. I got tired of it and installed a NATURE 2 system. Now my water is supposedly safe at .5ppm chlorine. Less chlorine, less damaged hair, less yacking from my wife screaming about her hair. Oh, and you can use the nature 2 system with saltwater. In fact you can set your generator to keep the pool at .5ppm......works out great.

Oh, I'm not plugging nature 2. That is just the brand I went with but there are a lot of mineral sanitizers on the market. Nature 2 happens to have more websites to stumble across. Just make sure it's an Erosion type mineral sanitizer.

Jerry Materne

[waterbear]

I'm not going to argue that salt water systems are the way to go. In fact, I'm going to convert to salt water myself. But, water is usually safe between 1 and 3ppm free chlorine. If that is the levels of chlorine that is causing the dry hair then switching to salt water isn't going to stop that. Why, because the chlorine generator is keeping the water at 1 to 3ppm of chlorine!!! Same level of chlorine equates to same level of hair damage.

The only solution I can think of is one that I have already done and it worked. My wife was constantly bitching and moaning about her hair getting dry in the pool. I got tired of it and installed a NATURE 2 system. Now my water is supposedly safe at .5ppm chlorine. Less chlorine, less damaged hair, less yacking from my wife screaming about her hair. Oh, and you can use the nature 2 system with saltwater. In fact you can set your generator to keep the pool at .5ppm......works out great.

Oh, I'm not plugging nature 2. That is just the brand I went with but there are a lot of mineral sanitizers on the market. Nature 2 happens to have more websites to stumble across. Just make sure it's an Erosion type mineral sanitizer.

Jerry Materne

Actually, a lot of the newest studies on CT kill times for pathgens indicate that 2 ppm FC is the lowest that should be used with any copper/silver system. In Australia they are not permitted to advertise them as being low chlorine systems and in Canada they are only registered as algaecides, not sanitizers. Nature 2 is a passive erosion type system that uses copper sulfate and silver nitrate to supply the copper and silver to the water.

[Jerry Materne]

LOL, so what you're saying is passive erosion mineral sanitizer are ineffective period? Bullshit..... 2 ppm is the level established long ago if you just use chlorine alone. 3ppm is the max that is considered safe for swimming in. I find it hard to believe that our CDC here in the states would allow a system that claims to sanitize your pool with half the chlorine continue to do so. This isn't canada. I've been keeping my pool at .5ppm now for 2 years now and here is what I've noticed:

1st and most importantly no one in my pool has ever gotten ill. No pink eye......nothing!!! The water is crystal clear and has absolutely no odor.

2nd our swimsuits have not taken the normal amount of fading or wear from swimming in a pool kept at 1 to 3ppm

I don't have to use as much chlorine to shock.........less FC produces less CC.

Opening your eyes underwater in my pool doesn't result in the blood shot eyes later on like conventional pools.

The only thing I don't like about it is the fact you will not gag if you swallow water like high chlorine pools will. Not that it's a problem, but I don't want people drinking my water in the pool. I think that's pretty sick regardless of how clean it is.

Oh, NO ALGEA!!! In the two years I've had this system........I have not had one single issue of algea.......

Debunk all you want but the system IS PROVEN and it is allowed in this country by our government as safe. I don't give a **** about what a bunch of canadian say anyway........hell, is canada a real country anyway?

[waterbear]

LOL, so what you're saying is passive erosion mineral sanitizer are ineffective period?

Pretty much! Same goes for electronic ionizers and liquid copper/silver treatments.

Bullshit..... 2 ppm is the level established long ago if you just use chlorine alone.

Wrong, it was 1 ppm.

3ppm is the max that is considered safe for swimming in. I find it hard to believe that our CDC here in the states would allow a system that claims to sanitize your pool with half the chlorine continue to do so. This isn't canada. I've been keeping my pool at .5ppm now for 2 years now and here is what I've noticed:

Wrong organization, it's the EPA, not the CDC.

1st and most importantly no one in my pool has ever gotten ill. No pink eye......nothing!!! The water is crystal clear and has absolutely no odor.

Does not mean that pathogens are not growing. Copper and silver have extremely slow kill times and at one time were pushed as "chlorine free" systems. This is no longer permitted.

2nd our swimsuits have not taken the normal amount of fading or wear from swimming in a pool kept at 1 to 3ppm

I don't have to use as much chlorine to shock.........less FC produces less CC.

Fallacy. If there are ammonia compounds in the water and the chlorine level is low you are right that they cannot combine with the clorine to produce CC but they are only destroyed by oxidation. If you do not superclorinate or use MPS to oxidize them they are still in the water.

Opening your eyes underwater in my pool doesn't result in the blood shot eyes later on like conventional pools.

Free chlorine doesn't cause the irritation. Cloramines do. If a chlorine pool is properly maintaned there are no chloramines in the water and no eye irritation.

The only thing I don't like about it is the fact you will not gag if you swallow water like high chlorine pools will. Not that it's a problem, but I don't want people drinking my water in the pool. I think that's pretty sick regardless of how clean it is.

Oh, NO ALGEA!!! In the two years I've had this system........I have not had one single issue of algea.......

Of couse there will be no algae (note the proper spelling) with copper in the water. Copper is an effective algaecide. Just look at all the copper based algaecides on the market. However, it is NOT a sanitizer.

Debunk all you want but the system IS PROVEN and it is allowed in this country by our government as safe.

Proven by who? All the research indicates otherwise.

I don't give a **** about what a bunch of canadian say anyway........hell, is canada a real country anyway?

Now you are showing your ignorance. Perhaps if you actually learned something about swimming pool water chemistry you would have a different view.

[Jerry Materne]

Look moron, my pool water has been nothing but a dream for two years and I have not had one problem with it. Take your EPA bullshit somewhere else. I equate the EPA with Greenpeace simply because ANYONE can be a member of it. The CDC is our governments establishment to set the health codes in this country, not the EPA. If the CDC states it's 1-3 ppm then it's 1-3 ppm. Since there are no symptoms being displayed by anyone swimming in my pool associated with CHLORAMINES then that means my pool doesn't have the levels of CC in the water to cause them. That means that my pool chemistry is obviously on par. Look jackass you may not trust the system but don't come in here trashing it with some half cocked bullshit you pull from the CPO. That book was written mainly for COMMERCIAL POOLS.........we're talking about private pools that do not have the load that a commercial pool would have. Mineral sanitizer are never recommended for commercial pools for that one reason but when it comes to a private pool that is an entirely different ball game.

And yeah, I don't think canada is a real country..............

[waterbear]

Look moron, my pool water has been nothing but a dream for two years and I have not had one problem with it. Take your EPA bullshit somewhere else. I equate the EPA with Greenpeace simply because ANYONE can be a member of it. The CDC is our governments establishment to set the health codes in this country, not the EPA. If the CDC states it's 1-3 ppm then it's 1-3 ppm. Since there are no symptoms being displayed by anyone swimming in my pool associated with CHLORAMINES then that means my pool doesn't have the levels of CC in the water to cause them. That means that my pool chemistry is obviously on par. Look jackass you may not trust the system but don't come in here trashing it with some half cocked bullshit you pull from the CPO. That book was written mainly for COMMERCIAL POOLS.........we're talking about private pools that do not have the load that a commercial pool would have. Mineral sanitizer are never recommended for commercial pools for that one reason but when it comes to a private pool that is an entirely different ball game.

And yeah, I don't think canada is a real country..............

Get your facts straight. The EPA has jurisdiction over swimming pool sanitizers in this county. NOT the CDC! They are the ones who said your Nature2 is safe with .5 ppm FC. You obviously don't put much faith in them from your comments yet you trust your family's health to a product that they approved. The spa N2 instructions were recently modified (in 2006) and now they operate at normal spa chlorine levels and not at .5 ppm FC in spas because they were found to not properly sanitize with such a small residual FC in the water. Recommened levels are set by individual state health departments. The CDC does not have any jurisdiction and on their website even defers the recommended levels to state health departments.

[Strannik]

bottom line is, chlorine is the most effective sanitizer on the market at the moment

the rest is either not so effective, or do not provide lasting protection

if you use salt water chlorinator, you will find that your daughter's hair won't be damaged, because it is not chlorine itself that damages them, it's dead chlorine.

and chlorinators have big advantage over dosing systems here, when the water is passed through the cell and electric current is applied, chloramines are broken down, so you don't get the chlorine smell and all the rest of things usually associated with chlorine.

plus prepackaged chlorine usually has other chemicals in it, which are the source of allergies etc...

salt water chlorinators are the way to go

if you can allow yourself to use chlorinator in pair with ozonator, that's even better

[AllWaterCare]

Pentair's Intellichlors and Goldline's Aquarites don't last very long.

I'd go for either AutoChlor (SM range) or Zodiac's LM2

Could you tell me where do you get those information?

[Strannik]

Pentair's Intellichlors and Goldline's Aquarites don't last very long.

I'd go for either AutoChlor (SM range) or Zodiac's LM2

Could you tell me where do you get those information?

From different pool builders across US and Canada.

[lews]

Waterbear, please accept my apology about the Canadian comments. Materne, for Christ sakes, grow up. If you don't agree with someone, explain why rather than getting your panties wadded and conducting a personal attack. It makes you look like a fool.

[chem geek]

Jerry,

When your pool was at 3 ppm Free Chlorine (FC), what was the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level in the pool? My wife's swimsuits degrade after a single winter of use in an indoor pool that has 2 ppm FC but no CYA while in our outdoor pool during the summer with 3-4 ppm FC and 30 ppm CYA there is no degradation whatsoever. Also, the drying (fraying) of hair has only occurred in the indoor pool with no CYA. Of course, everyone's hair is different.

The 1-3 ppm FC recommendation is historical and does not account for CYA. The disinfecting chlorine (hypochlorous acid) level is based on the ratio of FC to CYA. To keep away green algae, the minimum FC level is about 7.5% of the CYA level (the normal target is around 11.5% of the CYA level). Though many SWG systems are algae free at lower levels, this is for green algae while some SWG pools develop yellow/mustard or black algae because they have only 3 ppm FC (or lower) with 60-80 ppm CYA. The manufacturers of Trichlor (and Dichlor) dispute this, but if you look at the literally hundreds of posts of pool users that get algae in their pools you will find that they all have either zero chlorine or FC levels too low for their CYA level (with one exception that had extremely high phosphates) and some had more than the 3 ppm FC the industry claims is all that is needed to prevent algae.

As far as disinfection is concerned, most bacteria are very easy to kill and need very little chlorine in the water to do so. Also, your residential pool isn't open to the general public that may be sick and introduce new pathogens so your risk is lower. Using copper/silver systems are not the only way to keep away the algae while using lower chlorine levels for disinfection. You can use a weekly PolyQuat 60 algaecide and accomplish pretty much the same thing without the risk of copper precipitation or green hair (for blondes, mostly). You still need enough chlorine to kill bacteria and viruses, but a level about one-third lower than that to kill algae should be sufficient. Though this means you could use higher CYA levels at the same FC level, it does not mean you can use lower FC levels overall (i.e. 0.5 ppm or less) because you simply don't have enough chlorine capacity in the water to handle sweat and urine locally, especially not with manually dosing chlorine (as opposed to SWG or chlorine injection systems that constantly add more chlorine to the water). This is pretty much why a minimum of 2 ppm FC is needed in most cases for manually dosed pools even when using auxiliary disinfection or algae prevention systems. The extra chlorine is there to prevent it getting consumed too much by organics and from degradation from sunlight.

Richard

[jordan]

General impression i've got from studying american and canadian market - Goldline's cells don't last long.