Tom Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 ... posting...rumors is wrong, even if they do turn out to later be true. For example, I could post that your company, Arctic Tubs, is on the verge of bankruptcy even if I don't have any factual information about that. That doesnt' make it right later if you do end up filing for bankruptcy. In fact, it would be even worse because the very act of spreading vicious rumors might have weakened sales of Arctic tubs, accelerating the plunge into bankruptcy. See how that works? And no, you have no obligation to research every rumor to see if it might turn out to be true. Hmmm. This kind of post I enjoy, because it is a reasoned argument with no name-calling. ("Arctic Tubs" is okay by me.) I agree with you about the potential impact of rumours; that was why I jumped in with a post saying, in effect, "Hey, until we know otherwise, this is just rumour and hearsay!" It is still far from a proven fact, IMO, but I'm almost convinced. We've probably all coped with our share of rumours. For Arctic Tubs, have you heard the one about how all our tubs leak? (Absolutely true. Open the drain and all the water runs out. A few, being eager to please, don't even wait for you to open the drain...and those we fix, under warranty) our tubs burning up houses in Alaska? (Challenged to provide evidence, the guy who made this claim was never heard from again!). how the "Free Heat" demo is faked? This demo is that under certain conditions, the spa will maintain temperature with the heater disconnected. The rumour is that we first heat the spa as hot as it will go before any customers can show up, then crank the setpoint down just before the store or homeshow opens. (Highly creative, totally unnecessary.) jets popping out? (No, wait, ugh, don't bring that up, not that one, that's true. Like most manufacturers, we've had our share of jets popping out. And we've replaced every last one of them under warranty! Sometimes it seems to take some dealers a long time, and for that we work to improve.) However, it seems to me that if one has been badmouthing the people who are saying that a thing is so, and it turns out indeed to be so, one ought to apologize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East TX Spa Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 Of course, maybe those former costco tub owners would come and buy new tubs from you but again, not likely, since they would look at your tubs and see how much more they cost than the tub they could buy at Costco and would instead go back to Costco and buy...another new hot tub from the NEW costco hot tub supplier! See how that works? Either way, you lose. Enjoy. ________________________________________________________________________________ http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?...&pos=11#Top BWAAAAHHHAAAHHHAAAAAAAA! No, my young spadawan learner, if Costco sells a spa in East Texas or NW Louisiana from their SOLVENT spa supplier, I still win! HawHawHawwwwww! Terminator (layin' low and chucklin' in my stomach wif da fidgets) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 The easiest way to find out how long Hydro's run will be is to find out from Lucite if they are still buying sheets or if they've been cut off. No Acrylic No Spas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New NW tub owner Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 I would suggest you check you parts catalogue for what the pack truly is. M7 big deal all Balboa packs are M7 now the last pack that wasnt was used by Beachcomber Exclusively but now they have changed over.An if Hydro had a special pack made for them the price would go up on the tub. Some different decals doesnt make it better. The change will improve flow into the the heater thus more water passing over the element more frequently thus improving your heat transfer time. 1 bend in place of 3 wont improve flow??? It really shows what an uneducated person you are when it comes to spas and a few other things. I told you what the controller isn't as well as what it is. It's a Balboa controller that works well and is very similar to the one Balboa sells directly. I own one. You don't. I don't know if it costs more or less than a 'standard' controller but I would expect it would be less, based on a volume deal. No, the effect of the 180 or 90s is insignificant. Here's why. On my tub, the water enters two filter cartridges, then flows directly to the circ pump intake, then flows out of the pump, through the heater, then out of the heater to a tee where some of the flow goes through the ozonator venturi and most of the rest goes to three nozzles around the tub. I've never measured it but the total flowrate is probably about 30 gpm which is about right for the size of my tub. The flowrate is determined by the flow resistance of ALL of the piping components. The filter, the bends to the suction, the bends out of the suction, the flow resistance in the heater (probably the most significant), the total length of pipe from the filter to the nozzles, the bends on the way to the nozzles, the flow resistance in the pipe fittings and valves, etc. The increased resistance of two 90s is trivially small compared with the flow resistance of the entire system so eliminating those 90s would have an insignificant effect on the flowrate. Moreover, the flow resistance of the entire system is not significant and is part of the overall design. All centrifugal pumps REQUIRE a certain amount of flow resistance in the system piping just to operate at the proper part of their pumping curve. No, passing a slightly larger flowrate through the heater will not reduce the heat time. The heat time is affected only by the heat input of the heater. If the flowrate were low, the outlet water would just be at a higher temperature. If the flowrate were high, the outlet water would be at a lower temperature but the heat input would be the same. In fact, this idea is part of the basis for the Balboa M7 technology which monitors the inlet and out temperatures through the heater along with the heater input to determine the flowrate without needing to actually measure the flowrate directly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.P. Roberts Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 NewNW, you have logic on your side, but why not try a little tact as a garnish? The crow will be no softer, but at least a little more tasty, should you have to eat it in the future. That was great, Tom! Have you ever considered a career in corporate communications? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengorman Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 I previously wrote: Dr. Spa may in fact be correct, but at this time, I'm going to sit on the skeptical side of the fence along with "New NW Tub owner" until some more substantial information is posted. and then unhappyHYDROSPAowner posts this: Hi Ken and NW. Here is some info on Hydro operating in bankruptcy. HYDRO SPA PARTS AND ACC INC (doing business as: "(Debtor-In-Possession)") SAINT PETERSBURG , FL LINK: http://partners.dnbsearch.com/cgi-bin/dand...TNERS&R=HL0 Thanks for the update. I think it's better for the board in whole if we deal with reliable reports rather than rumor and innuendo. btw, keep us posted on your progress with respect to your tub. I've been reading your other threads. It's unfortunate the hassles you've had to deal with with your tub. The pics you posted with your tub sunken into the deck looked great. I'm definitely interested in hearing whether you go forward and return your tub or attempt to get it fixed. If you return it - let us know if you purchase another tub and your experience with it. Good luck. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 I would suggest you check you parts catalogue for what the pack truly is. M7 big deal all Balboa packs are M7 now the last pack that wasnt was used by Beachcomber Exclusively but now they have changed over.An if Hydro had a special pack made for them the price would go up on the tub. Some different decals doesnt make it better. The change will improve flow into the the heater thus more water passing over the element more frequently thus improving your heat transfer time. 1 bend in place of 3 wont improve flow??? It really shows what an uneducated person you are when it comes to spas and a few other things. I told you what the controller isn't as well as what it is. It's a Balboa controller that works well and is very similar to the one Balboa sells directly. I own one. You don't. I don't know if it costs more or less than a 'standard' controller but I would expect it would be less, based on a volume deal. No, the effect of the 180 or 90s is insignificant. Here's why. On my tub, the water enters two filter cartridges, then flows directly to the circ pump intake, then flows out of the pump, through the heater, then out of the heater to a tee where some of the flow goes through the ozonator venturi and most of the rest goes to three nozzles around the tub. I've never measured it but the total flowrate is probably about 30 gpm which is about right for the size of my tub. The flowrate is determined by the flow resistance of ALL of the piping components. The filter, the bends to the suction, the bends out of the suction, the flow resistance in the heater (probably the most significant), the total length of pipe from the filter to the nozzles, the bends on the way to the nozzles, the flow resistance in the pipe fittings and valves, etc. The increased resistance of two 90s is trivially small compared with the flow resistance of the entire system so eliminating those 90s would have an insignificant effect on the flowrate. Moreover, the flow resistance of the entire system is not significant and is part of the overall design. All centrifugal pumps REQUIRE a certain amount of flow resistance in the system piping just to operate at the proper part of their pumping curve. No, passing a slightly larger flowrate through the heater will not reduce the heat time. The heat time is affected only by the heat input of the heater. If the flowrate were low, the outlet water would just be at a higher temperature. If the flowrate were high, the outlet water would be at a lower temperature but the heat input would be the same. In fact, this idea is part of the basis for the Balboa M7 technology which monitors the inlet and out temperatures through the heater along with the heater input to determine the flowrate without needing to actually measure the flowrate directly. As a licensed plumber for 25 years I can honestly say most of this is correct. One detail missing though, the use of 1 single 180 degree bend is an indication of a poor plumbing design. How many other design flaws are in the system I don't know and neither does NW. So this fact is enough for me to speculate on the entire design or lack there of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unhappyHYDROSPAowner Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 keep us posted on your progress with respect to your tub. I've been reading your other threads. It's unfortunate the hassles you've had to deal with with your tub. The pics you posted with your tub sunken into the deck looked great. I'm definitely interested in hearing whether you go forward and return your tub or attempt to get it fixed. If you return it - let us know if you purchase another tub and your experience with it. Good luck. Ken Thanks for the comments. I love the look of the tub sunken into the deck but it sure will make it a you know what to get it out and a new one put in! The local Catalina guy seems to have his screwed on straight and he is willing to come by tomorrow to pick-up my Hydro Spa and return it to Costco's receiving area while I follow in my vehicle with my receipt. Then they will install our new Catalina Spa. I'm looking forward to getting back to 104! P.S - I looked at Arctic, Sunspa, Beachcomber, Coast Spa, Dynasty and finally Catalina. Previous to these "dealer spas" I was looking at the Costco Infinity's and Pilates. Basically it came down to getting a tub with a stereo, that would be reliable and cheaper than 10 grand, and one that I could get installed before winter. Most dealers were backed up 3 - 4 weeks or more and their prices were higher on similar models. Also, the Cat dealer was willing to help with the removal and return on my Costco tub which most other dealers didn't want a part of. As mentioned I will be taking pics to update the board of my progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepchillie Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 WOW! You guys are AWSOME! Who needs Day Time Soap Opras! I come here two times a day just to read all the fighting and bickering! Honestly! Who needs TV! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsallgood Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 I went to the dandb website( Dunn and Bradstreeet) to verify the bankruprtcy filing. I don't see any reference to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soakerman Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 chaptrer 13 is a reorginization not a liquidation so settle down boys! I think they perhaps grew to fast with the Ocola plant? Who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104 Degrees Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 Wheres Mr willared??????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East TX Spa Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 Wheres Mr willared??????? Mr. Willard always appeared to me to be the brightest of the Costco Gang. I imagine he is probably headed to Costco as we speak with a spa loaded on his trailer. It would be the smart move at this point, I only hope the rest of the gang seizes the initiative before the portal closes. Terminator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unhappyHYDROSPAowner Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 chaptrer 13 is a reorginization not a liquidation so settle down boys! I think they perhaps grew to fast with the Ocola plant? Who knows. Chapter 13? Where exactly did you find that? Chapter 11 is what's happening. A link was provided. Where's your source?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104 Degrees Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 Wheres Mr willared??????? Mr. Willard always appeared to me to be the brightest of the Costco Gang. I imagine he is probably headed to Costco as we speak with a spa loaded on his trailer. It would be the smart move at this point, I only hope the rest of the gang seizes the initiative before the portal closes. Terminator TURN ON THE NEWS!!!!!! The highways and byways are Jammed with suv's and trucks pulling trailers. they appear to have large square items on the trailers and on the roofs of the suv's. They think it could be an evacuation of some sorts????? 104 degrees John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted September 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 heresay for the moment Well, I've been in touch with "someone" that has a copy of the bankruptcy filing. It's 40 pages and I'm trying to get a copy. Looks like the debt is between 10 and 12 million $ Regardless of what anyone out there may think, I do know the credibility of my sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestallion Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 It appears all of the hydrospa apologist have slithered away, what burns my a@$ is how so many people feel it is fine to come in and slander any and all who are in the Spa Industry without are repercussions or accountability. They feel it is perfectly OK to make slanderous remarks, most of which demonstrate their total naivety about spas and the industry and most of this seems to be based on that they saw a spa which to them appears to be the same as what a dealer may carry for less money at a big box store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East TX Spa Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 It appears all of the hydrospa apologist have slithered away... Their ISP accounts were probably terminated for non payment. Terminator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soakerman Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 It appears all of the hydrospa apologist have slithered away... Their ISP accounts were probably terminated for non payment. Terminator If in fact Hydrospa goes under. Costco will honer the warranty! No dealer offers that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestallion Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 It appears all of the hydrospa apologist have slithered away... Their ISP accounts were probably terminated for non payment. Terminator If in fact Hydrospa goes under. Costco will honer the warranty! No dealer offers that! Why do people want to make these assumptions, how do you know what they will do and why the jab at the dealer, it appears the Costco spa buyers are "cult" like in their devotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East TX Spa Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 ...it appears the Costco spa buyers are "cult" like in their devotion. It's pretty obvious these "buyers" are feeding somewhere in the trough. There's just too much squealin' going on to believe otherwise. I make my living from selling HotSpring Spas, I own a HotSpring Spa, and if some misguided soul were ever to voice a negative opinion about HotSpring Spas, my panties would remain unbunched (if in fact I wore panties). I certainly wouldn't spend every day on the internet whining about someone's opinion. Disinformation, subterfuge, obfuscation is the world in which these "buyers" operate. Terminator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104 Degrees Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 If in fact Hydrospa goes under. Costco will honer the warranty! No dealer offers that! There are other dealers. are there other Hydro spas to go to??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spa God Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 For all wondering - it is true, Hydro Spa has filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy but will remain open as mainly a spa parts outlet and will continue to build spas for some local and out of state dealers. I have been dealing with them for over a decade and have close ties with some of the employees who are still left there. Many of them have been let go but they are still operating in attempt to restructure and restart the business back to what it used to be - a small family owned business that deals with individual hometown dealers. The reason for this downfall comes down to one word - COSTCO. When Hydro Spa started its relationship with Costco in 2005 they opened up a can of worms that just got out of control. They started building a tub strictly for them and were selling it them dirt cheap, making hardly any profit from it what-so-ever. But the lure of going nationwide suckered them in and now they have paid dearly for it. The tubs made for Costco, the Platinum 1, 2 and 3 (the Legend) were top of the line spas, using the same equipment and parts used in their Mark III line of spas which they sold to their local dealers for almost double the price they were selling the Platinum ones to Costco for. But Costco was selling so many of them they fiqured that the quantity they sold would make up for it. What they failed to realize what would kill them is the service end of it. When they sold the spas to the small mom & pop dealers they would usually service it themselves, sending in their labor bills to Hydro for anywhere from $55- $100 a call which would get either credited to their account or trade off for parts. But with Costco, all the service had to be outsourced to local service techs who Hydro had to find via internet or resort to calling the same local dealers that sold their other brand of tubs, which pissed many of them off knowing that they were selling tubs in their area at almost half of what they were selling a comparable tub for. Needless to say that caused them to lose many of those dealers. Well the service bills started piling up with Hydro having to payout double, triple and even quadrupal the amount of service bills that they had to pay for the small dealers. With Costco selling these tubs all over the country, places like Canada, Hawaii and the west coast, the labor was not cheap. The root of most of the Hydro Spa problems were leaks, many of these that were caused by either transportation or storage. Yes there were also some equipment failures, but that is normal with any spas, as I said they use all the same equipment as their other line of spas as well as everyone else in the industry. The only other main problem was stereos and speakers, which I feel have no place in a spa. But anyway back to the leak problems -Costco would store these spas on their end in frozen storage rooms and all the water that may have been left in the spa from Hydro's water testing (Yes, they did water test them!), would settle in the front equipment area and would freeze causing the plumbing to crack. Although some of the blame could be blamed on Hydrospa for not getting all the water out but it is nearly impossible to drain every drop of water out of a spa. Anyway Hydro Spa had to foot the bill for all these techs to go out to all the northern Costco stores and inspect them for damages as well as all the customers who already received them. Costco had no responsiblities with the spas other than to sell them. Even if a customer wanted to return a spa to Costco for any reason, whether it was actually defective or they just did not like the color, Hydro spa would sometimes have to foot the bill for the customer to return it as well. All this added up over their 3 year relationship making Hydro unable to pay all these techs and also some of thier parts suppliers. So they have now cut all ties to Costco and come next week all warranties for spas purchased through Costco will most likely be null and void. Anyone who calls in for a warranty part will be given the option to pay for the part either COD or credit card and get reimbursed when the bad part is returned, or they can just return the spa to Costco or thier local dealer or be given a number to call where they can attempt to get their money back for any parts or services rendered that they have to pay out of pocket to get it fixed. So if any one calls in to Hydro be preapred to have your credit card out because that is the only way your are going to get anything. Also if calling try to take it easy on any of the customer service reps that answer the phone, I know many of them personally and they are going through a rough time right now, many fearing for their jobs and it is not their fault it is COSTCO'S!!! Hopefully they can rebuild and go back to the way they were and at least sell parts. Many of us local Florida techs rely on them for parts instead of having to call out of state to get them, So bon voyage and good luck to Hydro Spa! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unhappyHYDROSPAowner Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 that post hits the nail on the head! I just returned my Hydro Legend 3 to Costco in Edmonton, Alberta Canada. I asked the Manager what they do with the returned tubs. He said they throw em in the landfill! How crazy is that!! I understand their situation though. They can't re-sell the tub. And to re-ship it back to Florida would cost more than it's worth. It's a write-off basically. Anyways, it's been a long day getting my Hydro out of my deck and returned and my new Catalina put in my deck. I will post pictures of the whole ordeal tonight or sometime this weekend. But I definitely will post pictures!! If anyone wants to check me for accuracy please call Costco in Edmonton, Alberta. Call the store on 91st street. Ask a manager or a receiving person if they had a hottub returned. That was mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spa God Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 Where's this landfill??? It might be worth it to drive an empty flatbed up and pick a few of them up, fix them and sell them on E-Bay (no warranty of course)!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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