Bacqua Spa Vs Clorine Based Products

[riley]

We are new spa owners and the sales people where we purchased it recommended Bacqua Spa. We have been using it for approximately 6 weeks when another spa company told my sister that Bacqua is bad for your system and can cause corrosion and seal rotting on the pump!

Does anyone have any long term information about this product? We sure could use some good advice.

Thanks, Riley

[Private Shrink]

We are new spa owners and the sales people where we purchased it recommended Bacqua Spa. We have been using it for approximately 6 weeks when another spa company told my sister that Bacqua is bad for your system and can cause corrosion and seal rotting on the pump!

Does anyone have any long term information about this product? We sure could use some good advice.

Thanks, Riley

I've heard that, but we've been using Bacqua Spa for well over a year now (didn't want chlorine smell or some of the problems associated with Bromine) and it's been wonderful. Very easy, very clean feel. I really try hard to keep pH and other variables in the desired range, and hopefully that will help. I certainly hope that we don't have corrosion and rotting seals someday, but given all the problems so many others have achieving clear, refreshing, stable water as compared to my once a week attention, I feel very lucky.

[tony]

We are new spa owners and the sales people where we purchased it recommended Bacqua Spa. We have been using it for approximately 6 weeks when another spa company told my sister that Bacqua is bad for your system and can cause corrosion and seal rotting on the pump!

Does anyone have any long term information about this product? We sure could use some good advice.

Thanks, Riley

I've heard that, but we've been using Bacqua Spa for well over a year now (didn't want chlorine smell or some of the problems associated with Bromine) and it's been wonderful. Very easy, very clean feel. I really try hard to keep pH and other variables in the desired range, and hopefully that will help. I certainly hope that we don't have corrosion and rotting seals someday, but given all the problems so many others have achieving clear, refreshing, stable water as compared to my once a week attention, I feel very lucky.

Baqua certainly has its issues, but there are many who love it and it is the most expensive of the three sanitizers. Do a search here and at the other forums and you should get more than enough information regarding the pros and cons of biguanides.

Biguanides have been known to damage certain plastics, but I believe this is more an issue with older spas.

[NorthBayHiker]

We are new spa owners and the sales people where we purchased it recommended Bacqua Spa. We have been using it for approximately 6 weeks when another spa company told my sister that Bacqua is bad for your system and can cause corrosion and seal rotting on the pump!

Does anyone have any long term information about this product? We sure could use some good advice.

Thanks, Riley

Hi Riley,

I was ALSO told that Bacqua Spa causes corrosion of the seals, (by a hot tub sales person who doesn't carry their products) however, what I learned with more research was EXCESSIVE USE OF SANITIZER *MAY* CAUSE CORROSION. I've been using Bacqua Spa products for the past 3 years and I LOVE them!!!

They are clean, no smells, no chlorine, no burning eyes or skin irritation, and I CAREFULLY apply just enough of the sanitizer to keep my hot tub in compliance with recommendations and I haven't had any problems whatsoever!

Hope this helps!

Jeff from Sonoma's Wine Country

[chem geek]

The biggest problem with Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB (other than cost) is the tendency to get white water mold, usually after 2-3 years (this is a tendency, not a certainty). This can be mitigated by using ProTeam System Support which is essentially (when in water) a combination of pH Up with hydrogen peroxide (essentially a higher dose for shocking) or you can use BioGuard SoftSwim Assist which is essentially (when in water) chlorine dioxide with this latter product ONLY to be used in Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB pools or spas and is the stronger and more effective of the two products. At least with the regular water change in a spa (which reduces the likelihood of Baqua-goo) and the use of products to avoid white water mold (probably just before every other refill or so), you can avoid the problems normally associated with Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB pools as described by the many frustrated users here and pool users successfully using Baquacil here where the key was an annual change of the sand filter. Generally speaking, Baquacil works better for hot tubs/spas than for pools due to the frequent water change and the lower volume of water makes the extra cost not as big a deal. Some comments on Baqua on this forum are here and here and a long thread here and more comments here and here.

As for chlorine smell, many of the users of chlorine don't report this as a problem because they 1) dose with chlorine after they get out of the spa so that when they get in the next day the chlorine level is lower (not zero, however), 2) maintain sufficient chlorine levels and leave the cover off briefly after dosing to not build up combined chlorines that smell and 3) they uncover their spa at least 5-10 minutes before getting in which reduces any chlorine odor buildup. The biggest issue with chlorine is having to add it every day, though one can automate chlorine addition by using The Liquidator talked about here though I haven't heard of anyone trying to use it for a spa (yet -- it's way oversized for a spa so the flow rate would need to be set very, very low and you could use diluted bleach in it). Bromine can be convenient with weekly addition of tabs but that has a different smell and some people are sensitive to it. Different choices and none is perfect so one has to decide what works best for them.

Richard

[blake]

Chemgeek-would you add or change any comments on using Bacqua on a spa equiped with an Ozonator?

[chem geek]

Chemgeek-would you add or change any comments on using Bacqua on a spa equiped with an Ozonator?

I don't think the ozonator would necessarily eliminate the white water mold problem as this can develop on surfaces including piping and is not just free-floating in the water where it would get killed by the ozonator. The ozonator probably helps, but isn't perfect insurance against this, but I can't find enough users with that combo to know with more certainty. If you use some of the products I mentioned that specifically kill white water mold (such as the SoftSwim Assist) then I think this problem can be avoided regardless of whether an ozonator is used.

At least with Baqua, I don't see the side effects that an ozonator causes with chlorine or bromine in terms of these getting oxidized to chlorates and bromates. However, it's quite possible that ozone breaks down the Baquacil so that more needs to be added to maintain proper levels. I don't know what the byproducts of such breakdown are, but I'm guessing they aren't as harmful as bromate (the Baquacil compound, PHMB, only has carbons and nitrogen in a polymeric straight chain so probably does not produce harmful by-products -- in some ways, it's similar to PolyQuat algicide).

As for Baqua-goo issues, again I don't know if the ozonator would take care of that. The claim from pool stores and happy owners is that Baqua-goo (a sticky film or clumps that form along the edges) is due to improper chemistry and it is certainly true that if you add chlorine to a Baqua system you will end up with multi-colored goo (that's what happens when using chlorine to convert from Baqua to chlorine so you do NOT want to add chlorine to a Baqua system unless you are trying to get rid of it), but there have been too many reports of Baqua-goo with users that didn't seem to be using chlorine at all for me to be convinced that it only occurs from improper chemical maintenance.

Richard

[going2baja]

Geek - I'll let you know how it works for me. I'll be starting w/ baqua and an Ozone system and we'll see how things work out.

BTW - Great posts on the chem stuff!

Baja.

[tony]

Geek - I'll let you know how it works for me. I'll be starting w/ baqua and an Ozone system and we'll see how things work out.

BTW - Great posts on the chem stuff!

Baja.

My dealer does not recommend the use of ozone with Baqua. I am not sure why as I have never been a biguanide user. Five years ago they were great supporters of Baqua, but today dissuade its use except to those who are allergic to bromine and chlorine because of water mold issues with their customers. Almost everyone I know that used biguanides has stopped with most switching to a chlorine plan.

[SmilinBare]

Two great years of outdoor tubbin' with BaquaSpa and an ozonator. Easy to apply. Delightful to soak in.

[Private Shrink]

Two great years of outdoor tubbin' with BaquaSpa and an ozonator. Easy to apply. Delightful to soak in.

I agree wholeheartedly, although my tub is in a sunroom. It has been suggested that the overuse of sanitizer may be the culprit in corrosion, but I use as little as possible while maintaining the proper level.

[waterbear]

[

As for Baqua-goo issues, again I don't know if the ozonator would take care of that.

It won't!

The claim from pool stores and happy owners is that Baqua-goo (a sticky film or clumps that form along the edges) is due to improper chemistry and it is certainly true that if you add chlorine to a Baqua system you will end up with multi-colored goo (that's what happens when using chlorine to convert from Baqua to chlorine so you do NOT want to add chlorine to a Baqua system unless you are trying to get rid of it), but there have been too many reports of Baqua-goo with users that didn't seem to be using chlorine at all for me to be convinced that it only occurs from improper chemical maintenance.

Richard

Biguanide works by causing bacterial cells to 'explode'. The 'baquagoo' is actually the remains of the cell wall and other stuff. Biguanide is not an oxidizer so these bacterial remains do not get 'burned off' like they do with chlorine and bromine. The peroxide oxidier that is used with biguanide does help burn them off to an extent but it is not as strong an oxidizing agent at the concentrations used. Higher concentrations are out of the question because they would cause bather discomfort, to say the least!

This goo gets collected in the filter where it is, hopefully, removed by frequent filter cleaning (MUCH more fequent than is needed with either chlorine or bromine.)

This is just the nature of the beast, so to speak, when using a biguanide system.

Also, since it is basically a biocide like the antibiotics our doctor's prescribe it has been found that bacteria do develop an immunity to it over time much like they can do with antibiotics, which is why both pink slime and white water mold, which are both bacterial, are a problem with biguanide system.

Biguanide is also used as a medical preservative and there has been a case in recent years where it was used in a popular contact lens solution that let to the outbreak of a corneal amoeba infection that led to blindness in several cases. There was a large recall of this well known contact lens solution just a few years back because of this. Once again this seems to be more evidence of it's limited effectiveness as a biocide. Also, it is not registered for use in Canada. What do they know that we don't?

Add to this the known fact that biguanide will destroy certain plastics that have been used in spas and are suspected of affecting pump seals makes this, IMHO, a sanitizer of last resort for those who CANNOT use either chlorine or bromine (rare but it does happen!)

[tony]

This is just the nature of the beast, so to speak, when using a biguanide system.

Also, since it is basically a biocide like the antibiotics our doctor's prescribe it has been found that bacteria do develop an immunity to it over time much like they can do with antibiotics, which is why both pink slime and white water mold, which are both bacterial, are a problem with biguanide system.

This is exactly the reasons. The biguanide system works great for a couple of years but then starts to have problems.

[Private Shrink]

This is just the nature of the beast, so to speak, when using a biguanide system.

Also, since it is basically a biocide like the antibiotics our doctor's prescribe it has been found that bacteria do develop an immunity to it over time much like they can do with antibiotics, which is why both pink slime and white water mold, which are both bacterial, are a problem with biguanide system.

This is exactly the reasons. The biguanide system works great for a couple of years but then starts to have problems.

I've heard similar "warnings" many times on this site, and having used BaquaSpa for about 1 1/2 years now, I am concerned. But I also read about SO MANY problems with chlorine and bromine that I don't see a clearly preferable choice. Yes, I know that waterbear and chemgeek are always saying that, when done correctly, these methods (especially chlorine) don't cause any problems, but then I guess there are a lot of numbskulls around, because everyone seems to be having problems maintaining their tubs with these approaches. At this point, I suppose one day I'll be wrestling with pink slime or white water mold (I don't get goo) and I'll have to switch to bromine or chlorine, whichever is more appropriate for an indoor hot tub, but for now I can't see an advantage to switching quite yet when I'm so pleased with BaquSpa.

[waterbear]

I've heard similar "warnings" many times on this site, and having used BaquaSpa for about 1 1/2 years now, I am concerned. But I also read about SO MANY problems with chlorine and bromine that I don't see a clearly preferable choice. Yes, I know that waterbear and chemgeek are always saying that, when done correctly, these methods (especially chlorine) don't cause any problems, but then I guess there are a lot of numbskulls around, because everyone seems to be having problems maintaining their tubs with these approaches.

There is a learning curve in how to do it properly but it's really not rocket science. It just takes a good test kit and the desire to learn how to test the water and dose the chems. It becomes pretty automatic after only a short time!

At this point, I suppose one day I'll be wrestling with pink slime or white water mold (I don't get goo) and I'll have to switch to bromine or chlorine, whichever is more appropriate for an indoor hot tub, but for now I can't see an advantage to switching quite yet when I'm so pleased with BaquSpa.

The only thing to fear is fear itself. It's just a spa, not rocket science!

[wireman]

Chlorine doesn't smell when you use it properly. I never smell much of anything in my tub. Testing, treating and shocking keep the water perfect.

[billy sharpstick]

. . . Almost everyone I know that used biguanides has stopped with most switching to a chlorine plan.

I've now decided to do just that. I've had too much trouble keeping my spa clear with Baqua.

I think I'm going back to Bromine. Are there any notes on converting back? Seems like I saw a link to something like that here a while back but I can't find it now.

I'm concerned that traces of Baqua will remain and react with chlorine or bromine and make another mess. How much do I need to flush it out to prevent this? All those hollow spaces inside the shell hold a lot of water.

My spa is now pretty murky and it has a musty smell like frogs died in it. (They probably did a while back when it sat almost empty before I fixed the broken plumbing but it should have flushed out by now)

And if I decide to go to chlorine later on, are there any compatibility problems?

Thanks

[poolyeti]

. . . Almost everyone I know that used biguanides has stopped with most switching to a chlorine plan.

I've now decided to do just that. I've had too much trouble keeping my spa clear with Baqua.

I think I'm going back to Bromine. Are there any notes on converting back? Seems like I saw a link to something like that here a while back but I can't find it now.

I'm concerned that traces of Baqua will remain and react with chlorine or bromine and make another mess. How much do I need to flush it out to prevent this? All those hollow spaces inside the shell hold a lot of water.

My spa is now pretty murky and it has a musty smell like frogs died in it. (They probably did a while back when it sat almost empty before I fixed the broken plumbing but it should have flushed out by now)

And if I decide to go to chlorine later on, are there any compatibility problems?

Thanks

The way that my company recommends switching over from Baquacil is to use a product called Oxy-brite, which is a MPS sanitizer. You keep shocking with that until the Bacquacil levels are below 15 ppm. At that point it's safe to start using chlorine. Of course, since you're wanting to switch your spa over, it's probably just better to dump it and start with fresh water. You'll still want to test the water once the tub is filled to make sure the Baqua level is below 15 ppm.

[watersentinel]

[

As for Baqua-goo issues, again I don't know if the ozonator would take care of that.

It won't!

The claim from pool stores and happy owners is that Baqua-goo (a sticky film or clumps that form along the edges) is due to improper chemistry and it is certainly true that if you add chlorine to a Baqua system you will end up with multi-colored goo (that's what happens when using chlorine to convert from Baqua to chlorine so you do NOT want to add chlorine to a Baqua system unless you are trying to get rid of it), but there have been too many reports of Baqua-goo with users that didn't seem to be using chlorine at all for me to be convinced that it only occurs from improper chemical maintenance.

Richard

Biguanide works by causing bacterial cells to 'explode'. The 'baquagoo' is actually the remains of the cell wall and other stuff. Biguanide is not an oxidizer so these bacterial remains do not get 'burned off' like they do with chlorine and bromine. The peroxide oxidier that is used with biguanide does help burn them off to an extent but it is not as strong an oxidizing agent at the concentrations used. Higher concentrations are out of the question because they would cause bather discomfort, to say the least!

This goo gets collected in the filter where it is, hopefully, removed by frequent filter cleaning (MUCH more fequent than is needed with either chlorine or bromine.)

This is just the nature of the beast, so to speak, when using a biguanide system.

Also, since it is basically a biocide like the antibiotics our doctor's prescribe it has been found that bacteria do develop an immunity to it over time much like they can do with antibiotics, which is why both pink slime and white water mold, which are both bacterial, are a problem with biguanide system.

Biguanide is also used as a medical preservative and there has been a case in recent years where it was used in a popular contact lens solution that let to the outbreak of a corneal amoeba infection that led to blindness in several cases. There was a large recall of this well known contact lens solution just a few years back because of this. Once again this seems to be more evidence of it's limited effectiveness as a biocide. Also, it is not registered for use in Canada. What do they know that we don't?

Add to this the known fact that biguanide will destroy certain plastics that have been used in spas and are suspected of affecting pump seals makes this, IMHO, a sanitizer of last resort for those who CANNOT use either chlorine or bromine (rare but it does happen!)

Great info. In my experience, I have seen no reason to use these products over dichlor or bromine unless there is an allergy and you just can't use them. I'm not a dr. but the chance of someone being allergic to dichlor and bromine seems slim. They are more expensive and I don't believe they are as effective. Occasionally you do have a customer that has read something about them and just has to try it. I warn them and let them do what they want. I don't know anyone that has stayed on the system for long. At the risk of offending someone that sells the products, I think they are cash cows.

[billy sharpstick]

The way that my company recommends switching over from Baquacil is to use a product called Oxy-brite, which is a MPS sanitizer. You keep shocking with that until the Bacquacil levels are below 15 ppm. At that point it's safe to start using chlorine. Of course, since you're wanting to switch your spa over, it's probably just better to dump it and start with fresh water. You'll still want to test the water once the tub is filled to make sure the Baqua level is below 15 ppm.

i guess i didn't mention that i am draining it first. so all i need to do is purge, clean and make sure it is pretty well flushed out. i was just concerned about any residual Baqua causing problems.

[poolyeti]

i guess i didn't mention that i am draining it first. so all i need to do is purge, clean and make sure it is pretty well flushed out. i was just concerned about any residual Baqua causing problems.

Yeah, after draining the spa, there shouldn't be enough to hurt anything - just test it to make sure.

[waterbear]

change your filter and shock the spa with a large dose of bleach=about 2-3 oz per 100 gallons. If any biguanide is present you will see the water discolor...just keep the FC level up to about 10-12 ppm until the water clears. The biguanide in the water will consume the chlorine pretty fast so you will need to add it a few times a day to maintain the level. Once the water is clear and the chlorine is holding you are done! Let the chlorine levels drop and then start your bromine by adding your sodium bromide!