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m3722

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Altazi here. I have been looking at the various manufacturer's websites for information, and found this on the Arctic Spas site. It is a link to a thermal performance report comparing some of the Arctic spas against some of the major brand competitors.

http://www.arcticspas.com/downloads/perfor...20of%20Spas.pdf

Of course, no company is going to promote a study that makes their own product look bad, but this report was done by a third-party laboratory, and as such, should be objective in it's conclusions. I noted that one of the less-expensive Arctic brands (Coyote) didn't perform as well as some of the FF spas.

I would be interested in seeing this kind of information from other manufacturers.

Kindly note that I am not associated with the spa industry in any way, and am in the process of trying to decide which spa to buy.

There have been three independent tests performed but paid for by thermally closed spa companies.

All state the thermally closed is superior.

In full winter in Colorado it is about 1/3 the cost to run a Haven vs your typical so cal full foam spa.

Arctic is a similar design but we use an even tighter design with themal foil and thermal foil boards so that the total insulation is equivelent to R-31 in insulation and in dynamic using heat from the motors it is equivelnt to R-90 in compared to full foam. Most of the heat loss is out the top, so a good cover and thermal blanket is recommended. Air is about 800 times less dense than water, and about 1341 times less costly to heat, so using warm air that is warmer than the water will stop all the heat losses out the sides of the vessel. And the total cost to run with out use, the time the spa is sitting there is 300 watts per hour for a 450 gallon spa. So at sub zero weather the inside of the cabinet is like tropical heat. You can adjust this energy use to less than 100 watts per hour in warmer times.

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In Connecticut, Tp(dead air space spas: as long as the wind isn't blowing) spas cost about $100-$150 per month to operate in the winter, especially those with pumps that have stickers on them claiming 6hp.

Full-foam spas on the other hand, cost about $35-$40 per month to operate.

We know, we've hooked electric meters(like what the electric company uses) and tracked them with the homeowner.

No opinions or hot air there.

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this report was done by a third-party laboratory, and as such, should be objective in it's conclusions.

I would be interested in seeing this kind of information from other manufacturers.

Many companies hire labs to do reports like that one. I like that report because they did eight spas, from different makers. But there is no mention of use of the spas, nor is there any mention of the simple fact that the Arctic cover is much thicker than the others. I wonder if the Vanguard would have moved to the top position if it had been fitted with a cover as thick as the Arctic? That's not a big deal: if you want to buy a HotSpring and order a thicker cover you certainly can.

Here is another test, run at the request of Watkins MFG corp, on HotSpring tubs. This is also a test run under controlled conditions: just like the ARC study mentioned above. They put the tubs in a chamber and controlled the temp and humidity. They also used a 110 volt spa, and they appear to have run open/closed cycles, but it doesn't specify people actually getting in the spa - which is also the same as the ARC study.

Energy test on HotSpring spas

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In Connecticut, Tp(dead air space spas: as long as the wind isn't blowing) spas cost about $100-$150 per month to operate in the winter, especially those with pumps that have stickers on them claiming 6hp.

Full-foam spas on the other hand, cost about $35-$40 per month to operate.

We know, we've hooked electric meters(like what the electric company uses) and tracked them with the homeowner.

No opinions or hot air there.

You have never seen a properly made spa. We have customers out there. I don't know if I would ever want a friggin Hot Spring sales person's evil vibe around my customers.

I don't know if you are aware of this or not but we have plenty of ex-hot spring spa onwners and they would beg to differ wiht you on the electric bill and just about everything else you believe.

Most people in the spa industry have never seen a Haven Spa. There are two reasons, one is that they don't break down much so we don't need to hire a lot of even independent service people and two they never shop the rip off stores for chemicals. We take care of that. They don't like the vibe of spa stores.

Many companies hire labs to do reports like that one. I like that report because they did eight spas, from different makers. But there is no mention of use of the spas, nor is there any mention of the simple fact that the Arctic cover is much thicker than the others. I wonder if the Vanguard would have moved to the top position if it had been fitted with a cover as thick as the Arctic? That's not a big deal: if you want to buy a HotSpring and order a thicker cover you certainly can.

Here is another test, run at the request of Watkins MFG corp, on HotSpring tubs. This is also a test run under controlled conditions: just like the ARC study mentioned above. They put the tubs in a chamber and controlled the temp and humidity. They also used a 110 volt spa, and they appear to have run open/closed cycles, but it doesn't specify people actually getting in the spa - which is also the same as the ARC study.

Energy test on HotSpring spas

That is the most concocted test I have ever examined. A 115V spa with no users and no running of the pumps after the users get out, inside of a box with no wind and not side by side against any other spa, and they don't tell you the ending temperature of the spa in the cold run. A 115 v spa will not stay hot for 20 minutes in Colorado winter and if there is wind about 5 minutes before you have to leave. Was there an ozonator on the spa to draw the 30 or 40 watts. I don't remember Chas, can you tell us the watts on your ozonator?

You need to stop being a pupet for those greedy liars.

All of the other tests were done side by side with other brands of spas.

And comparing a Hot Spring with a 115 V 1.5 HP pump against a real spa is a joke. The energy efficeincy you get is at the cost of haveing a hot tub that you can soak in for more than 10 minutes and having almost no therapy. Then they insult the intelligence of people with that chart that is basically bull crap. Using that spa to determine the cost to operate a 240 V heated spa is just a lie and you know it.

That is why I came up with the Spa Challenge to put and end to all this bull crap.

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I love all the business people like JIM send my way!

The two spas we delivered today were to families who liked the fact "We were the only company who didn't badmouth another."

Keep drivin' em in! THANK YOU, JIM!

I just hope dealers, internet wizords, and the like keep bad mouthing the competition, IT'S GREAT FOR BUSINESS!

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In Connecticut, Tp(dead air space spas: as long as the wind isn't blowing) spas cost about $100-$150 per month to operate in the winter, especially those with pumps that have stickers on them claiming 6hp.

Full-foam spas on the other hand, cost about $35-$40 per month to operate.

We know, we've hooked electric meters(like what the electric company uses) and tracked them with the homeowner.

No opinions or hot air there.

What kind of winter conditions do you experience that results in these type of spa electricity bills? Which TP spas were these? Which FF spas? I would be FRIED if I got hit with $100+/month for the spa electricity. At $150/month, I'd surely experience marital problems. . . Were any of these Arctic spas? If so, do you know the models?

So far, I have identified local dealers for the following brands: Arctic, Hot Springs, Dimension One, Sundance, and Marquis. It seems more appropriate to buy a spa from a local dealer to me. Any other brands I should consider? Recommendations?

FYI, my location is central Oregon, where the winters can get pretty cold and snowy.

Thanks!

Altazi

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What kind of winter conditions do you experience that results in these type of spa electricity bills? Which TP spas were these? Which FF spas? I would be FRIED if I got hit with $100+/month for the spa electricity. At $150/month, I'd surely experience marital problems. . . Were any of these Arctic spas? If so, do you know the models?

So far, I have identified local dealers for the following brands: Arctic, Hot Springs, Dimension One, Sundance, and Marquis. It seems more appropriate to buy a spa from a local dealer to me. Any other brands I should consider? Recommendations?

FYI, my location is central Oregon, where the winters can get pretty cold and snowy.

Thanks!

Altazi

We have spas in Central Oregon and you are perfetly welcome to contact those customers.

This guy is a Hot Spring Salesman. What sales people are trained to do is to imply things.

A typicaly thermal pane or so called can have an open bottom and some foam on the shell with not much insulation on the walls. These sales people are trained to imply that the worst spas on earth that could possibley and barely be called thermal pane are used as an example of all thermal pane spas. It is a sales trick. It is typical of sleazy sales people.

Then they take the best electric bills they have heard from their customers, with no meters on the spas, and use that as "typical". I have ex hot spring owners (Now Haven Owners) who told me their electric bills were over $100 in New Jersey with their old Hot Spring. If you want to talk with a customer with personal experience, I can put you in contact with them. Real consumers and not sales people are your best hope against all this BS.

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There have been three independent tests performed but paid for by thermally closed spa companies.

All state the thermally closed is superior.

In full winter in Colorado it is about 1/3 the cost to run a Haven vs your typical so cal full foam spa.

Arctic is a similar design but we use an even tighter design with themal foil and thermal foil boards so that the total insulation is equivelent to R-31 in insulation .

DO YOU EXPECT ANYONE TO BELIEVE YOU JIM PLEASE

SHUT UP

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We have spas in Central Oregon and you are perfetly welcome to contact those customers.

This guy is a Hot Spring Salesman. What sales people are trained to do is to imply things.

A typicaly thermal pane or so called can have an open bottom and some foam on the shell with not much insulation on the walls. These sales people are trained to imply that the worst spas on earth that could possibley and barely be called thermal pane are used as an example of all thermal pane spas. It is a sales trick. It is typical of sleazy sales people.

Then they take the best electric bills they have heard from their customers, with no meters on the spas, and use that as "typical". I have ex hot spring owners (Now Haven Owners) who told me their electric bills were over $100 in New Jersey with their old Hot Spring. If you want to talk with a customer with personal experience, I can put you in contact with them. Real consumers and not sales people are your best hope against all this BS.

As you can see, I do not respond to undocumented implications. While I welcome opinions, I always try to dig down for objective facts wherever possible. I must say, that in this industry, it seems to be quite difficult to get to the bottom of things!

What I would like to see is something like a Consumer Reports automotive issue for spas, where each manufacturer's products are rated for a number of categories (shell, pumps, plumbing, controls, cover, etc.) AND frequency of repair, over a period of several years. THAT would be a helpful document!

Regards,

Altazi

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As you can see, I do not respond to undocumented implications. While I welcome opinions, I always try to dig down for objective facts wherever possible. I must say, that in this industry, it seems to be quite difficult to get to the bottom of things!

What I would like to see is something like a Consumer Reports automotive issue for spas, where each manufacturer's products are rated for a number of categories (shell, pumps, plumbing, controls, cover, etc.) AND frequency of repair, over a period of several years. THAT would be a helpful document!

Regards,

Altazi

Most of my customers are extremely smart people. They had the advantage of reading, our web site and going out to verify everything that is written. When you put yourself in the position of educating consumers with the truth, you better have all of the truth because if they find one lie, you are not going to impress a multiple PH. D. engineer or a professor of Medicine at one of the most prestigious universities in the country.

There is no consumer reports on spas, because they are not important enough, and no spa company is going to submit a free sample for testing, just as they will not submit to my independent testing that I was going to pay for with the entry fee.

Maybe you need to take more time and find out like anyone who is getting confused by a bunch of sales people with an agenda. Find out for yourself, because nobody is going to lay it out for you on a silver platter. This is a cut throat business and if you can't see that now, by seeing how I am treated for speaking the truth about engineering, then you never will.

DO YOU EXPECT ANYONE TO BELIEVE YOU JIM PLEASE

SHUT UP

Read the test of the Arctic spa in Colorado Mountains.

Then you can shut up.

What has got you so angry? What did I say to offend you?

What brand of spa do you sell?

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Hey Jim, I thought you said you dont come on here to try and sell spas

Why would anyone believe that Arctic study in Colorado as most in the Industry know

that was a bullshit study and it was made up by Arctic if you look in the Arctic books 2years ago it said the study was conducted by Loveland Utility Company of Loveland Colorado Which does not exsist. If you look on that very same page now its not there bc they were made to take it off. So you should research these things before you start misleading people ONCE AGAIN or are you going to next say it was you that made Arctic fix their brochure or you would expose them

oh yeah one more thing once you do your research with my information and find out its true

you then need to

SHUT UP

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ya dat gie is jus a nutter ideut salspearson

I agrea wit ju jimmi

The Arctic Spa performance report (link shown in my previous post) was done by the Alberta Research Council, which at least is a real entity. Is there any reason to doubt the veracity of the information in this report?

I find it distressing that a company such as Arctic Spas (which certainly appears to be reputable) would post a false study on their website. I'd like to know more about this - and any other shady dealings by spa manufacturers in general.

Regards,

Altazi

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The Arctic Spa performance report (link shown in my previous post) was done by the Alberta Research Council, which at least is a real entity. Is there any reason to doubt the veracity of the information in this report?

The ARC is a reputable government agency. http://www.arc.ab.ca/

I find it distressing that a company such as Arctic Spas (which certainly appears to be reputable) would post a false study on their website.

We wouldn't. Nor do we need to make up data.

Why would anyone believe that Arctic study in Colorado as most in the Industry know that was a bullshit study and it was made up by Arctic if you look in the Arctic books 2 years ago it said the study was conducted by Loveland Utility Company of Loveland Colorado. Which does not exsist. If you look on that very same page now its not there bc they were made to take it off.

Loveland does indeed exist, and has a very nice web site at /www.ci.loveland.co.us. It has a utility company, officially titled Loveland Power & Water. That study was before my time at Arctic, but I am told that it was a parking lot promotion organized by a local dealer (who may no longer exist!) and the Loveland utility company installed the meters.

While it may have entertained visitors to the store, it certainly does not have the scientific validity of the ARC study; and its data, while likely accurate, is suggestive rather than conclusive.

Tom

Arctic Spas

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Tom, Im not disputing about the ARC study If I can find that old brochure in the stacks of competing material I will indeed send you a copy.

But if it was a dealer who made it up for a promo why would it be in the brochure I got from the dealer in Ontario. Care to spin that one????? or you may want to ask your bosses to tell you the real answer.

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That study was before my time at Arctic, but I am told that it was a parking lot promotion organized by a local dealer (who may no longer exist!) and the Loveland utility company installed the meters.

While it may have entertained visitors to the store, it certainly does not have the scientific validity of the ARC study; and its data, while likely accurate, is suggestive rather than conclusive.

Thank you Tom. That certainly answers some questions.
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Tom, Im not disputing about the ARC study If I can find that old brochure in the stacks of competing material I will indeed send you a copy.

But if it was a dealer who made it up for a promo why would it be in the brochure I got from the dealer in Ontario. Care to spin that one????? or you may want to ask your bosses to tell you the real answer.

Part of your problem is in your belief system. Arctic has a much better insulation system that is well proven.

Welcome to the new century.

I can't do this anymore. Foam is a better insulation.

All this stuff I've been posting about my DIAT tub? Yea, it's bullshit. I mean come on guys, you must have known that! Half the stuff I write I make up on the spot! You guys were taking me seriously? Wow.

Anyhow, I think I'm going to start a new business, Training the local mentaly retarded children to wipe their behinds. For some reason this seems to me to be the right direction for me.

Wish me luck!

Oh yea, sorry to all my customers who bought my tubs!!! Ha ha! Sorry about that! Hey....you might want to double check the wiring on some of them, I was pretty out of it when I put a few of those babies together!!!! IF any of you find a Mickey Mouse watch inside your cabinets, could you send that back to me? I might have left a baloney sandwich in a Falsburg I shipped to Newark. If anyone in Newark has a strange smell when they turn on the air blowers, you should check inside the cabinet. Sorry.

Just so you know, criminal impersonation has a 5 to 10 year minimum in a federal penitentiary. And because it is done on the Internet it now has some new Internet laws as well, for Internet fraud. It is also across country lines, so that no matter what country you live in or where you are the investigators will find you and arrest you.

I have notified the owners of the forum as well.

DIS IS HOW YOU MAKE A SPA I SHER WISH I WERES AS SMART AS jim_thw_jim

The improvements in this DAIT system are many in function, but the synopsis is as follows:

DAIT equipped spas have the highest effective insulation of any spa ever made to date in winter. There are six layers of effective air barrier foil and foam insulation in these spas.

DAIT allows an automatic reduction in the effective insulation as the thermal conditions warrant. (DAIT Level 2 has multiple levels based upon interior and exterior thermal conditions)

DAIT allows for control over the ambient air around the motors affecting an increase in the motor longevity by keeping the frame of the motor cooler than any portable spa in current production. It moves the heat away from the motors.

DAIT allows a decrease in the winter electric consumption that rivals summer use energy consumption, while the spa is not in use.

DAIT gives the spas an increase in the heat transfer into the spa water in winter and less or very little in summer.

DAIT soundproofs the cabinet even more because of the additional layers and air chambers added to the walls of the cabinet.

DAIT allows even better use of the warm air into the blower than was ever achieved before and the use of higher horsepower air injection for more air features than have ever been available with low energy consumption.

DAIT allows the warm air in front to be brought to the rear of the spa.

DAIT ALLOWS YOU TO TAKE FULL ADVANTAGE OF LABOTOMY

DAIT MEANS YOU NEVER HAVE TO THINK FOR YOURSELF LET JIM DO IT FOR YOU

Just so you know that it is a federal crime to do internet fraud, impersonation, aganst any company or any person. You might want to call your lawyer, now, because you are going to need one real soon.

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And because it is done on the Internet it now has some new Internet laws as well, for Internet fraud. It is also across country lines, so that no matter what country you live in or where you are the investigators will find you and arrest you.

That is probabaly the dumbest thing you have ever typed.

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Tom, Im not disputing about the ARC study If I can find that old brochure in the stacks of competing material I will indeed send you a copy.

But if it was a dealer who made it up for a promo why would it be in the brochure I got from the dealer in Ontario. Care to spin that one????? or you may want to ask your bosses to tell you the real answer.

Thanks, Pathfinder; just scan the cover and email it to me. If it was a corporate brochure, I can probably find a copy. If it was one of ours, we may have removed the material ourselves (brochures change annually, as you know), but I've been involved in doing copy and proofreading the brochures for the past three years and don't recall the material you mention in any I've worked on.

If it was something a local dealer put together, I may not be able to find out. But sure, I'll ask the head guys and get back to you. You've got me curious.

Others reading this thread who are curious can find the document in question at www.arcticspas.com, the North American site, left hand menu, "Performance Reports".

Tom

Arctic Spas

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The Arctic Spa performance report (link shown in my previous post) was done by the Alberta Research Council, which at least is a real entity. Is there any reason to doubt the veracity of the information in this report?

I find it distressing that a company such as Arctic Spas (which certainly appears to be reputable) would post a false study on their website. I'd like to know more about this - and any other shady dealings by spa manufacturers in general.

Regards,

Altazi

While I am not disputing the legitimacy of the study by ARC or Arctic using it as a marketing tool, as they rightly should. I find it hard to believe anyone would put much into a report that clearly showed Arctic as using less hydro to power there spa. Pennys less than the next nearest competitor that had a 1 inch thinner cover on it.

I can only wonder what the results would be, and if they would even be used by Arctic if the second place tub had a cover of equal R-Value?

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Jim don't you know that impersonation is the sincerest form of flatery

The name, exactly as it is spelled; TheSpaSpecialist is a trademark and we own it.

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