Foam Filled Or Partial Fill

[sharkman009]

If you think that is bad just wait for another to take its place.

I think he said he had replaced it with another brand and his operating costs were less.

[Brulan1]

I think he said he had replaced it with another brand and his operating costs were less.

We never had a complaint about the price of electric or the operating costs. I own 1 at each one of my houses and never made my bill more than 35 dollars a month in Long Island NY

[Guzz]

We never had a complaint about the price of electric or the operating costs. I own 1 at each one of my houses and never made my bill more than 35 dollars a month in Long Island NY

I think he was complaining about an older model.

[grahamtasia]

Using a close-celled polyurethane foam just makes the most sense. You insulate your house. Why not your hot tub. I will say it seems to me that Arctic is the only spa that I have seen that actually does the thermal pane correctly.

[Guzz]

Using a close-celled polyurethane foam just makes the most sense. You insulate your house. Why not your hot tub. I will say it seems to me that Arctic is the only spa that I have seen that actually does the thermal pane correctly.

Welcome to the forum Grahamtasia, sounds like your a FF guy.

[grahamtasia]

It just makes common sense. My house, refridgerator/freezer, and coolers all are insulated.

[Roger]

It just makes common sense. My house, refridgerator/freezer, and coolers all are insulated.

Thermal pane spa's are insulated on the cabinet walls. And they utilize the pump heat during filtration to create an even higher R-Factor than a FF insulated tub. The problem arises during the non run times as there is less insulation on a thermal pane tub. If you could actualy get a small pump that runs 24/7 and creates enough heat and has a long enough longevity, and cost very little to replace and operate. Thermal would be the ultimate insulation style as repairs are easier and you have a higher R-Factor because of said motor heat. But I am still going to side with a small circ pump (75 watt like a light buld) and full foamed. For now.

[drumstick]

So you're saying he's replacing it with another Coleman?

when i hear the name coleman i just shutter and hope no-one ever has to deal with that poor of quality in any tub as i had to with that name. two coleman tubs in 18 months and the same problems plagued both of them, cant be just a fluk, must be par for their quality standards. this was a march 2004 and a july 2004 tub both boat anchors for a navy ship. if you had a solar panel or wind mill for the electric bill it would be just ok. i looked and looked at tubs and sales lit. and i felt coleman was one of the top to pick from and the t.p. idea even sounded to make more sense. but as the old saying goes "there is a sucker born every min." i just happen to be one of them and will admit when i was wrong even tho it is hard and takes time for the scars to heal. especially when your wife and kids are counting on ole dad to make the right decision .

[Roger]

when i hear the name coleman i just shutter and hope no-one ever has to deal with that poor of quality in any tub as i had to with that name. two coleman tubs in 18 months and the same problems plagued both of them, cant be just a fluk, must be par for their quality standards. this was a march 2004 and a july 2004 tub both boat anchors for a navy ship. if you had a solar panel or wind mill for the electric bill it would be just ok. i looked and looked at tubs and sales lit. and i felt coleman was one of the top to pick from and the t.p. idea even sounded to make more sense. but as the old saying goes "there is a sucker born every min." i just happen to be one of them and will admit when i was wrong even tho it is hard and takes time for the scars to heal. especially when your wife and kids are counting on ole dad to make the right decision .

There has been some improvments in the Coleman line but I still see them as a lower end line. I just don't like there fit and finish compared to alot of other brands. If you look at a Marquis and a Coleman side by side you will also see it. If you get a good price on one then the value may be there depending on how much you payed. But if your expecting a top of the line tub when you purchase and you pay top dollar you Will be dissapointed.

[Canadian Kahuna]

Will the madness never end? So many threads on this subject and it's still such a debate, lol. I couldn't believe it when i saw yet another thread started on the FF vs TP. I'm not even putting in my opinion or experience with either since it's been stated enough before. Ugh.

[Guzz]

Will the madness never end? So many threads on this subject and it's still such a debate, lol. I couldn't believe it when i saw yet another thread started on the FF vs TP. I'm not even putting in my opinion or experience with either since it's been stated enough before. Ugh.

Oh, the insanity of it all! The madness, aghhhhhhh..........

[Brulan1]

Oh, the insanity of it all! The madness, aghhhhhhh..........

Yeah let the new comer look at the previous threads and make a decision on that area. Then let them determine which is more compfortable by shopping around.

[Altazi]

Hello All,

I realize that this may be a tired and well-hashed subject for many of you long-time users, but for someone who is in the process of researching a new spa, and hasn't spent a lot of time in these forums, this is a very interesting discussion. Please bear with people such as myself.

Having received some information, and looked through most of the posts, I have some comments and questions. I have no clear preference to TP over FF, but some of the ideas behind TP seem to make sense to me. Background: I am an engineer, with a degree in physics. Kindly note that I am not affiliated with the industry, and have "no dogs in the fight."

* In a TP spa, the waste heat from the motors that is not lost to the outside WILL be transferred to the water. How much temperature increase this causes in the water is dependent upon thermal transfer from the spa to the ambient, which is largely impacted by the quality of the insulation in the cabinet AND the insulation in the cover.

* The insulation effectiveness of the cover is critical, since heat rises.

* In the TP spa, may I assume that the pump & heater will run on an as-needed basis, dependent upon the water temperature and the themostat setpoint? If so, then then the waste heat from the motor operation will slightly reduce the amount of time the heater is called for. I would expect the motors to contribute a few hundred watts of heat at most. Realistically, I wouldn't expect any serious financial savings due to this relatively slight heat contribution the motors might make.

* In a TP spa, the motors & electronics are contained within the heated cabinet. This subjects the components to temperatures on the order of 100 degrees F, plus or minus. Assuming that the components are rated for continuous operation in these temperatures, isn't this a better environment than subjecting the components to the potential wild temperature swings when operating at cold environments, e.g., 8 degrees F? As an engineer, I would suspect the large variations in temperature could be worse in the long run.

* A thin styrofoam coffee cup protects my fingers from McDoodle's nuclear-hot coffee. At some point, additional insulation is unnecessary. In a FF spa, how much foam is necessary for proper thermal insulation?

* In a FF spa, one of the "5%" leaks not located in the equipment compartment MUST require the removal of the filled foam. How difficult are these types of leaks to locate and repair? What would be the typical cost?

* Complete access to all of the plumbing in a TP spa would seem to be beneficial for service. I have seen a number of folks comment on the TP spa's lack of proper support for the plumbing, which may result in leaks. Has this proven to be a documented problem?

* High-quality components, robust design, and good manufacturing processes outweigh the advantages and/or disadvantages of either TP or FF products.

Please feel free to comment, and correct any misconceptions I might have. At this point, I am considering Arctic and Marquis spas. Thanks in advance for your advice.

Altazi

[Chas]

I think there is some misunderstanding with regards to the sales pitch you heard, or more likely perhaps some misinformation from the sales person. It is not possible for the pumps to heat a 500 gallon spa to 97F unless the outide environment was about 92F. Water pumps generate a small amount of heat from the friction created from the impellers churning the H2O however not near enough to heat a 500 gallon spa...

I have seen many of our 500 gallon tubs heat up to the mid to upper nineties on just the small circ pump. Takes about two or three days, but it happens.

The spas I sell are FF, and very well designed at that. So the circ pump transfers enough heat into the water, and the insulation keeps it right there well enough that it works every time.

The moderator on another board even did a test to see how well it would work: refilled with fresh water, left the breaker for the heat off and ran just the circ pump. I don't recall what the ambiant temp was, but the tub hit 96 in a matter of days.

Keep in mind that pump runs constantly in a HotSpring, and can overheat the tub in hot weather. They have a summer mode for those times.

Further, I have seen plenty of our tubs overheat when the jet pumps are left running with the lid closed. They have a shut-off built into the software nowadays, but you can still elevate the temperature to a very uncomfortable level by just letting both pumps run with the lid down. This is now starting with a hot tub - say 102 - and it can run it right up to 108 which is where the safety shut off turns everything off and flashes the power light at you.

[Chas]

* The insulation effectiveness of the cover is critical, since heat rises.

This is a commonly held missconception. Heat will go in any direction, but always from hot to cold. Hot AIR does rise above cooler air, but that has no bearing on a spa since we are talking about water, and if you have a good spa, it will keep the water moving often enough to even the temp out in the water. The reason the cover on a spa makes such a big difference in the energy consumption is that it is usually the thinnest part of the insulation. The cover is often only 2" thick at the outer edges, so it is easily the thinnest part of the insulation scheme on a FF spa. So, you may lose heat through the cover more than the rest of the tub, but not because 'heat rises.'

Also, it is removable, and when it is off, that is the part of the spa giving off the most heat. If, by some trick, you could open up the bottom of the spa without the water falling out, THAT would be the part that lost the most heat. In fact, if you set a poorly insulated tub on an open deck and subject it to icy cold wind - lets say it has a better than average cover - you will lose more heat out the bottom than the top until the top is opened for use.

* In the TP spa, may I assume that the pump & heater will run on an as-needed basis, dependent upon the water temperature and the themostat setpoint? If so, then then the waste heat from the motor operation will slightly reduce the amount of time the heater is called for. I would expect the motors to contribute a few hundred watts of heat at most. Realistically, I wouldn't expect any serious financial savings due to this relatively slight heat contribution the motors might make.

I agree completely. I have heard sales pitches for TP spas where they say that you need 8 hours of filtration per day to keep the water clear, so you have quite a bit of waste heat going around the cabinet. Some TP designs have little or no insulation on the back of the shell, so the heat transfers easily. Other designs have thick insulation, and then an air gap, and then another thick layer on the cabinet. In those designs the idea is to let the motors provide a warm-air blanket which helps the insulation value, but may or may not directly transfer heat into the water. Either way, you are right that the effect is slight. And, if you go several days without using the spa, I sure don't see the point in running that filtration cycle eight hours every day!

Please feel free to comment, and correct any misconceptions I might have. At this point, I am considering Arctic and Marquis spas. Thanks in advance for your advice.

[Dr. Spa]

* In the TP spa, may I assume that the pump & heater will run on an as-needed basis, dependent upon the water temperature and the themostat setpoint? If so, then then the waste heat from the motor operation will slightly reduce the amount of time the heater is called for. I would expect the motors to contribute a few hundred watts of heat at most. Realistically, I wouldn't expect any serious financial savings due to this relatively slight heat contribution the motors might make.

Actually, in a case like this the pump and heater is only going to run a few hours a day. The majority of the time the pump/heater will be OFF, therefore not producing heat and. With no heat being produced the MAJORITY of the time, durring that time MORE heat will be lost through the lack of, or minimul, insulation.

* In a TP spa, the motors & electronics are contained within the heated cabinet. This subjects the components to temperatures on the order of 100 degrees F, plus or minus. Assuming that the components are rated for continuous operation in these temperatures, isn't this a better environment than subjecting the components to the potential wild temperature swings when operating at cold environments, e.g., 8 degrees F? As an engineer, I would suspect the large variations in temperature could be worse in the long run.

Motors are rated for a MAXIMUN ambient temp. A lower temp will generally extend their life.

* A thin styrofoam coffee cup protects my fingers from McDoodle's nuclear-hot coffee. At some point, additional insulation is unnecessary. In a FF spa, how much foam is necessary for proper thermal insulation?

ummmmmmmmmmm, kind of. Try putting some tape on the outside of the cup and hold it from there. There is a published report that does show a curve for insulation vs heat loss. HOWEVER (and this is the MOST important part), it's dependant on ABSOLUTE elimination of air infiltration. The "curve" shows a 70% reduction of heat loss at about R-7.5 and a 90% reduction at R-15 (what this relates to in $ I haven't a clue ). But again, air infiltration is, or can be, a MAJOR cause of heat loss. A VERY small opening or crack can easily cause a turnover of all the air beneith a TP spa in only a few minutes with a slight breeze.

* In a FF spa, one of the "5%" leaks not located in the equipment compartment MUST require the removal of the filled foam. How difficult are these types of leaks to locate and repair? What would be the typical cost?

For someone EXPERIENCED in this type of repair it usually isn't a big deal. I used to have a service tech that was an ex teck of a "major" FF manufacturer. He could generally find and repair a leak in that paticular brand of spa in about an hour. For the unexperienced, yup, it can be a nightmare......... But, so can brain surgery

* Complete access to all of the plumbing in a TP spa would seem to be beneficial for service. I have seen a number of folks comment on the TP spa's lack of proper support for the plumbing, which may result in leaks. Has this proven to be a documented problem?

Yes, but unfortunatly I lost the report on this . It was published by a home warrant company comparing the number of leaks in a FF spa compared to TP. The report is about 6 or 8 years old, and as I recall, TP leaked 6 to 8 times more frequently than FF.

[Altazi]

Thank you, Chas & Dr. Spa. This is just the kind of information I was hoping to receive.

I agree that air infiltration in a TP design can reduce or eliminate any thermal savings in capturing the motor's waste heat.

Interesting that someone did a report on TP spas has being more prone to leakage. Any thoughts on whether this is still the case? Or have the TP spa manufacturers done something to alleviate this problem?

I can understand that keeping a motor running cool can help lengthen its service life, but what about motor starts when the motor is cold. Come to think of it, how cold can the motor get, assuming the spa is powered? Any troubles due to wide temperature swings on the components?

Are there any questions that I SHOULD be asking, or thinking about?

Thanks!

Altazi

[Dr. Spa]

The report is so old, and had had relitivly little interest in it at the time, I don't recall a whole lot of it. I do seem to remember though that only a small part of it was on leaking spas, and the "report" as a whole covered quite a few different things (other than spas).

"Or have the TP spa manufacturers done something to alleviate this problem?"

Yes and no. Plumbing connections have changed, and are claimed to be better.......... BUT, every thim the pump turms on, and off, the plumbing is prone to flexing. Reduce, or eliminate the flex, and you reduce the stress and lower the possibility of leaks.

"I can understand that keeping a motor running cool can help lengthen its service life, but what about motor starts when the motor is cold. Come to think of it, how cold can the motor get, assuming the spa is powered?"

Really the ONLY part of a motor effected by movement is the bearings (and the shaft seal in the pump). Typically they're grease filled, sealed bearings. I'm not aware of any possible problems till you get to temperatures so low the grease actually freeezes. You live in the antarctica by any chance?

"Any troubles due to wide temperature swings on the components?"

Nothing I've ever heard of.

[Trigger]

'Altazi' date='Aug 22 2006, 05:56 PM' post='11785'

Having received some information, and looked through most of the posts, I have some comments and questions. I have no clear preference to TP over FF, but some of the ideas behind TP seem to make sense to me. Background: I am an engineer, with a degree in physics. Kindly note that I am not affiliated with the industry, and have "no dogs in the fight."

Hi Altazi,

You're right it's been hashed over to the point of ad-nasuem. However, I can sympathize with you that as a new consumer to the market, it's a valid question to ask. I'm not involved in the industry, but can offer my insight.

Full foam is the industry standard. It's been suggested that a quality TP design can be just as efficent as FF. I think if you are looking at quality brand name tubs, like the ones you mentioned, the insualtion is not as important and should not be a deciding factor.

But since you asked

As a consumer and user, I beliver the FF is a better solution than a TP cabinet for the needs of a hot tub, in so much that it works, and is a proven solution.

Hundreds of thousand of folks in extreame cold temperatures use FF and are very happy with it. I don't believe leaks are an issue, and are not the nightmare that TP sales folks (not engineers) claim it to be. I find the TP design interesting and perhaps even novel, but when it comes to spending real dollars from my wallet, I look at real world results and realiabilty for my appliances. (ie I went with what was tried and true).

I like TP in so far that's its interesting and a clever design. However I don't like TP for a consumer product. it's a neat idea, but it strikes me as poor engineering. (it's more "advanced" and complicated, but it's not a better soultion. ie; Think mousetrap engineering.) I believe over use of the pumps and less structual support for the plumbing introduce many potentail faults that offset the few (if any) benifits that TP claim.

Full foam works without electricity. A TP deisgn is inherently dependent on the heat from the pumps to maintian it's insulation abilitites. TP designs therefore favor over aggresive and numerous filter cycles to produce the "extra heat" that it then proports to be reclaiming. It's unnecessary.

Expereince has shown that aggresive filter cycles that many of the TP tubs are programed to run are not needed to maintain clean water. This is demonstrated by the hundred of thousands of folks who have a quality FF tub, and simply run a circ pump and ozinator and have exceelent water quality. If running the pumps that much were needed, TP would seem a bit more attractive, but since they are not needed, I personaly see it as a limiting factor.

I'd belive spa technolgy will see more success in more efficenent pumps, better heating elements and advanced solid insulation materials. Not a system dependent of reclaimation of heat produced by unnesarry running of the pumps.

Yup. Heat from the cabinet will transfer to the colder water, however, it works both ways. Heat from the water will also rapidly transfer to cooler air in the cabinet. Air heats quickly and cheaply, BUT it also cools just as quickly. Air in volume is not an efficent insualtor. I see the paritially filled cabinets on TP tubs as another liablitiy.

If ANY product or industry introduces a new technoligy, as a consuer I ask What new benifits will I have? Better features, quality or alower price? TP doens't offer any benifits over the existing proven technolgy. At best, it's just as good as, and as i stated can introduce new fualts. TP is different, but I do not see it as better.

anyhow, just some quick remarks to add fuel to the fire as I think at the end of the day, a quality brand name tub is the goal.

time for some coffee.

[Stevie]

Both systems work well and it shouldn't be a factor in the buying process. There are far too many other key factors and most salespeople will attempt to deflect those by injecting their marketing views on you to gain the sale.

I too have been involved in many FF/TP debates and have also sold both with a very ardent understanding of the designs. FF people will suggest it's the best and vise versa. It's all about positioning and marketing and nothing more sorry to say...

I do find it interesting that the most heated debates on spa forums revolve around a design feature that means very little at the end of it all. Truth is that most major, well known manufacturers whether FF or TP will all operate within a few bucks a month of each other. That's a reality that few will admit to.

Areas to consider long before you get to the insulation aspect;

- Comfort

- The dealer

- Therapy

- Low maintenance

- After sale support

- Configuration of the spa

- Overall value

- Warranty

Steve

[Brulan1]

Both systems work well and it shouldn't be a factor in the buying process. There are far too many other key factors and most salespeople will attempt to deflect those by injecting their marketing views on you to gain the sale.

I too have been involved in many FF/TP debates and have also sold both with a very ardent understanding of the designs. FF people will suggest it's the best and vise versa. It's all about positioning and marketing and nothing more sorry to say...

I do find it interesting that the most heated debates on spa forums revolve around a design feature that means very little at the end of it all. Truth is that most major, well known manufacturers whether FF or TP will all operate within a few bucks a month of each other. That's a reality that few will admit to.

Areas to consider long before you get to the insulation aspect;

- Comfort

- The dealer

- Therapy

- Low maintenance

- After sale support

- Configuration of the spa

- Overall value

- Warranty

Steve

FF and TP are very close in terms of operating costs however TP allows better access and FF allows for whispering (less noise). You are exactly right about other area's to consider.

[Tom]

BUT, every time the pump turms on, and off, the plumbing is prone to flexing. Reduce, or eliminate the flex, and you reduce the stress and lower the possibility of leaks.

Doc, this may be true of some TP spas, but is not true of an Arctic Spa. It's easy to check--just put your hand on the hose near a pump, and have someone turn the pump on.

Not all TP spas are built the same way!

Tom G.

[Jim_The_Jim]

I am about to purchase a new hot tub, but so far, I have gotten very mixed answers, regarding insulation. Arctic Spas for one, say that their system of insulation is the best-which is the floor and tub are sprayed but that there is a cavity open around the plumbing and motors. They claim that it makes it alot easier to work on and the heat off the motor heats the water as well, which cuts down on power. They also claim with a power failure at -20F, that their pipes and motors won't freeze for 5 days.

When you go to another dealer they claim the only way to go is full insulation.

What do you guys think?

Mike

I think you need to use your brains. The only reason for full foam is to cheapen the cost to manufacture.

It takes a stronger shell, and better construction to build a good spa.

Five days is close to what we can get. When some company takes an idea from 1977 and brings it into 2006, don't you doubt what is going on. When I ask consumer how much they know about spas, the answer is normally "not much" or "nothing". If you don't know what you are buying, then you are going to be at the mercy of sales people.

Study as much as you can before you learn to regret.

FF and TP are very close in terms of operating costs however TP allows better access and FF allows for whispering (less noise). You are exactly right about other area's to consider.

I beg to differ on the noise. Our spas are designed with acoustic engineering to stop the noise.

The foam is not going to stop the noise in the equipment compartment. There is a lot to it.

[tumbleweed]

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/erik_journal.html

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/fi...sage-boards.htm

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/fi...ory/factory.htm

http://www.poolandspa.com:8080/upload/spa%20specialist.jpg

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

[Altazi]

Altazi here. I have been looking at the various manufacturer's websites for information, and found this on the Arctic Spas site. It is a link to a thermal performance report comparing some of the Arctic spas against some of the major brand competitors.

http://www.arcticspas.com/downloads/perfor...20of%20Spas.pdf

Of course, no company is going to promote a study that makes their own product look bad, but this report was done by a third-party laboratory, and as such, should be objective in it's conclusions. I noted that one of the less-expensive Arctic brands (Coyote) didn't perform as well as some of the FF spas.

I would be interested in seeing this kind of information from other manufacturers.

Kindly note that I am not associated with the spa industry in any way, and am in the process of trying to decide which spa to buy.