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Foam Filled Or Partial Fill


m3722

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ROGER What are you trying to say here??????? A thermopane spa will not heat without a heater?????? Should that not include a full foam can not heat without a heater!!!!!! Think about it in a full foam the pumps can run till he#l freezes and it would not make a difference. Remember their pumps are inclosed in a little plastic box. { The pumps only need to run 4-6 hrs. aday what about the other 18hrs.} Please your not serious are you???????? In normal weather {60 or above] we have found that with the filter cycle set to run 4 times aday that our tub {ARTIC] will stay within a degree up or down of where we have it set. In a full foam disconnect the heater and see what the water temp. does. You can check it today, tomorrow or the next day and the temp. is only going one way DOWN!!!!!!!!!! And I don't care how many hrs. your little cir. pump runs. Let's put it this way. If my heater went bad and a new one could not be installed for 4 days I sure would hope I have a quality thermopane spa period!!!!!!!! Last question====== If my tub is sunk into a deck . What is the procedure to fix a full foam tub?????? In our case [ thermopane type] we simple open up one of 8 side panels look and see the leak and repair it. I'm not trying to flame you, but I think it's important to have complete information out there for folks to make a educated decission on. steve

Yes a full foam spa won't heat without a heater also your right! But you are wrong a certain amount of heat is generated from all tubs even FF when they pump. I'm glad you added the 60 degs. above because that is about the cut off point for a FF also, the friction heat will almost maintain set temp above 60...balmy. If a heater went bad on a FF tub it would be fine also until it could be replaced as long as you ran the circ pump. Your scare tactics are failing. If a FF tub is sunk into a deck and it has a leak, you do the same thing you open up the equipment side and fix the leak, as 95 percent of them are going to be there and not in the foam. Unless Arctic has found that more of there leaks are on the other 3 sides I don't know? But if this is true maybe they ought to fix this problem by supporting the plumbing. Another scare tactic that's not going to work. I'm not trying to flame you either as a proponent to TP style insulation, I just think that you are right, people should not make there decision based on partial information. And anyone who bought a TP style tub because they were decieved into thinking it would be easier to fix a leak or it could heat without a heater should know its....BS....sales pitch. And if you look back you will see I own a TP style tub and I make no preferance to either. Both will work as long as the TP is done correctly. And both FF and TP have advantages over the other, with IMO no clear better style. Except for those brands that use a combination of the 2 styles for that 3rd style. And this 3rd style having an advatage over both.

And don't worry about flaming me......my feelings won't be hurt because you think differently than me. In the real world I am surrounded by mechanical systems with both water flow and insulation. I have almost seen it all and find Hot Tubs to be a very simple product to diagnos.

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It's nice to know your feelings are not hurt. As far as trying to scare people I assure you that was not my intent. I simple gave m.o. on a statement you made in this thread.[ tp tup cannot heat water without a heater. [ dead wrong and I expressed why. As far as my question about the sunken tub again not trying to scare anybody. I have a co worker that is the only person I know who owns a spa. He has a leak and it's in the 5 percent . I know what he has gone through to try and fix it and so do you. I simple ask someone with knowledge to please explain the procedure on how they fix this type of problem. steve

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Yes a full foam spa won't heat without a heater also your right! But you are wrong a certain amount of heat is generated from all tubs even FF when they pump. I'm glad you added the 60 degs. above because that is about the cut off point for a FF also, the friction heat will almost maintain set temp above 60...balmy. If a heater went bad on a FF tub it would be fine also until it could be replaced as long as you ran the circ pump. Your scare tactics are failing. If a FF tub is sunk into a deck and it has a leak, you do the same thing you open up the equipment side and fix the leak, as 95 percent of them are going to be there and not in the foam. Unless Arctic has found that more of there leaks are on the other 3 sides I don't know? But if this is true maybe they ought to fix this problem by supporting the plumbing. Another scare tactic that's not going to work. I'm not trying to flame you either as a proponent to TP style insulation, I just think that you are right, people should not make there decision based on partial information. And anyone who bought a TP style tub because they were decieved into thinking it would be easier to fix a leak or it could heat without a heater should know its....BS....sales pitch. And if you look back you will see I own a TP style tub and I make no preferance to either. Both will work as long as the TP is done correctly. And both FF and TP have advantages over the other, with IMO no clear better style. Except for those brands that use a combination of the 2 styles for that 3rd style. And this 3rd style having an advatage over both.

And don't worry about flaming me......my feelings won't be hurt because you think differently than me. In the real world I am surrounded by mechanical systems with both water flow and insulation. I have almost seen it all and find Hot Tubs to be a very simple product to diagnos.

roger you are right on. i was decieved and led on by a coleman dealer that repair is easier and the heat from the motors cut down the electric bill. shame on me, for falling for that one.

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It's nice to know your feelings are not hurt. As far as trying to scare people I assure you that was not my intent. I simple gave m.o. on a statement you made in this thread.[ tp tup cannot heat water without a heater. [ dead wrong and I expressed why. As far as my question about the sunken tub again not trying to scare anybody. I have a co worker that is the only person I know who owns a spa. He has a leak and it's in the 5 percent . I know what he has gone through to try and fix it and so do you. I simple ask someone with knowledge to please explain the procedure on how they fix this type of problem. steve

So a TP style tub can heat with out a heater? From 49 degrees like my water is here to 102? How long exactly would this take? I spose friction heat would do that on a FF tub but I wonder how long it would take? On a TP style you have the added advantage of the pump motor but ya gota wonder if the pump would burn out before the water became usable temp??? I have fixed FF tubs, I have dug through foam to find a leak and repair it. I have done it 2 ways, tipped a tub on it's side after locating the general area and diagnosing the likely spot. And also removing a side panel after locating a likely spot and going for it. 3 times last year in a couple hundred repairs. None of the 3 FF repairs in the foam was that big of a deal nor took days or weeks, but a few hours. All 3 were over 7 years old. If your friend is close I will gladly fix his problem I get 65 bucks an hour. How old is his tub? Because theres a certain point where a leak in the foam on a FF tub is no longer cost affective to repair. Personaly I feel its sooner than most folks but that's just me. If a 18 year old FF tub has a leak in the foam, the tub is only worth a few hundred to a grand then the 2-3 hours nessesary to find and repair the leak if it's only one may not be worth it. Again most FF leaks are because of age. In my opinion 10 years is about the life expectancy of any brand and anything after that is a bonus, Then with updates to pumps and effieciency and shell designs if your into the tub lifestyle you should be thinking about updating. Mine is almost 6 years old and I am thinking about updating.

Your friend, does he have considerations built into his decks or sunken area for this type of repair? All my deck panels are removable around my tub, but all 4 sides are actualy easiely excessable under also and all 4 panels are removable. But alot of FF tubs have removable side panels, what brand is it are they not remomable?

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I'm not sure how you came up with going from tp tub can not heat without a heater to scare tactics to raising the temp. from 49 to 104 degrees ,but I'll try one more time. My point is in a tp style tub because of the open cavity the transfer of heat from the motors can directly effect the temp. in the tub water. With a ff tub I.M.O.you can gain nothing from the created heat. The motors in the tubs we looked at have a small cavity that house the motors and are directly vented[ in newer style] to the outdoors with no direct effect on the water temp loosing any gains from this bonus heat that is a by product of the motors. Does this mean it's better or less costly to operate I could not tell you that is up to the experts to decide. My point is that it's simple not true that a tp tub can not create heat without the heater. Now can it go from 49-104 I hope not, but I.M.O. it makes sense to see that it would be easier to create heat in the tub [without the use of a heater] with a QUALITY tp tub than in a ff tub. This is just M.O. maybe I'm wrong or maybe I'm right we'll let the folks out there come to their own conclusions as they reseach their purchase. On to the second point. I ask how to repair the other 5 % of repairs. I agree 100% with you that all products have a life span and once that point is reached that it simple makes no sense to spend additional funds to repair. In marks case his tub[ not sunken] started leaking water so he went to the local dealer about getting it repaired. I don't remember exactly what the hourly rate quoted was but I do remember that the quote was pretty high. Now maybe they just did not want to do the work I don't know, but as we all read the post on this forum about people worrying about a swing in energy use between tubs and a swing in chemical cost between tubs that they should consider all types of repairs also and the installation of their tub. Maybe I should keep M.O. to myself, but I know with all the info. thrown at a person it's very easy to forget some of the simpless things. I hope we can put this to rest and move on. I do thank you for sharing your experiences and knowledge with all of us and I hope you can consider M.O. on this subject and I hope the folks out there who are considering the purchase of a tub will do their own reseach and draw their own conclusions. steve

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In this case I would look at which dealer lied to you less in there sales pitch......LOL

A full foam spa with a small circulation pump will run all day on less power than a jet pump will use in 4 hours of filtering. And a circulation pump will be so quiet you can hardly hear it.

A thermopane spa will not heat with out a heater. The pump has to be running in order for the insulation to work as it is suposed to. The pump only needs to run 4-6 hours a day. How about the other 18-20 hours or majority of every day?

A full foam spa will be more difficult to repair.......... But for an experienced service tech, no biggy. 95 percent of all repairs are in the equipment bay, which won't be any different on either style.

A thermopane style tub will last longer in a power outage before the plumbing freezes..........But you had better have a plan in 20 below no matter what the insulation style because they will both freeze and if one freezes in 4 days and the other in 5, who cares, fix it.

ROGER What are you trying to say here??????? A thermopane spa will not heat without a heater?????? Should that not include a full foam can not heat without a heater!!!!!! Think about it in a full foam the pumps can run till he#l freezes and it would not make a difference. Remember their pumps are inclosed in a little plastic box. { The pumps only need to run 4-6 hrs. aday what about the other 18hrs.} Please your not serious are you???????? In normal weather {60 or above] we have found that with the filter cycle set to run 4 times aday that our tub {ARTIC] will stay within a degree up or down of where we have it set. In a full foam disconnect the heater and see what the water temp. does. You can check it today, tomorrow or the next day and the temp. is only going one way DOWN!!!!!!!!!! And I don't care how many hrs. your little cir. pump runs. Let's put it this way. If my heater went bad and a new one could not be installed for 4 days I sure would hope I have a quality thermopane spa period!!!!!!!! Last question====== If my tub is sunk into a deck . What is the procedure to fix a full foam tub?????? In our case [ thermopane type] we simple open up one of 8 side panels look and see the leak and repair it. I'm not trying to flame you, but I think it's important to have complete information out there for folks to make a educated decission on. steve

Now here is what I said and here is what you said. Something in my statement pissed you off? Tell me what it was so I can be carefull next time when I post. You seem to like Arctic and that's OK they are a fine tub, a bit noisy for me and to high priced IMO. I think there are other brands that will give you a better value and will cost you less to operate. But my post was regarding TP style of insulation and the fact that IMO it is no better than FF or no worse if it's done properly, and Arctic is one of those that does it as close to right as possible. And it should not make one iota of difference in your tub buying experience.

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Now here is what I said and here is what you said. Something in my statement pissed you off? Tell me what it was so I can be carefull next time when I post. You seem to like Arctic and that's OK they are a fine tub, a bit noisy for me and to high priced IMO. I think there are other brands that will give you a better value and will cost you less to operate. But my post was regarding TP style of insulation and the fact that IMO it is no better than FF or no worse if it's done properly, and Arctic is one of those that does it as close to right as possible. And it should not make one iota of difference in your tub buying experience.

But roger we all have great points about both but I will have to agree with a thermal pane type insulation like Artic, Coleman and thermo spa it just makes more sense, not to say it makes the other tubs uncompfortable or a main reason why to choose one over the other, to go that route.

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But roger we all have great points about both but I will have to agree with a thermal pane type insulation like Artic, Coleman and thermo spa it just makes more sense, not to say it makes the other tubs uncompfortable or a main reason why to choose one over the other, to go that route.

I don't see less insulation as making more sense. I think either method can be said to make more sense. But if you were convinced that one method makes more sense than the other you were decieved into thinking one way is substantialy better than the other. Not true.

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I don't see less insulation as making more sense. I think either method can be said to make more sense. But if you were convinced that one method makes more sense than the other you were decieved into thinking one way is substantialy better than the other. Not true.

Roger,

Although I agree with much of what you have to say, obviously you are pretty savvy when it comes to spas, However I don't think this is true at all, there isn't always deception involved in one developing an opinion about something such as spa designs. Brulan believes that the thermal foam insulation design is the best and you believe that full foam designs are superior. You both have personal reasons to favor one design over the other based on your own knowledge and preferences. I am by no means a spa expert myself, so I am in a fact gathering mode and will eventually develop my own opinion based on my research. Think about it, you are both right and justified in your own minds and that's all that really matters. Time will tell on these spa designs, maybe ten years from now both of these will prove to be inferior based on future designs. Just my 2 cents worth, I appreciate all the knowledge I have gained from gentleman such as yourselves by reading all the posts and opinions.

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Roger,

Although I agree with much of what you have to say, obviously you are pretty savvy when it comes to spas, However I don't think this is true at all, there isn't always deception involved in one developing an opinion about something such as spa designs. Brulan believes that the thermal foam insulation design is the best and you believe that full foam designs are superior. You both have personal reasons to favor one design over the other based on your own knowledge and preferences. I am by no means a spa expert myself, so I am in a fact gathering mode and will eventually develop my own opinion based on my research. Think about it, you are both right and justified in your own minds and that's all that really matters. Time will tell on these spa designs, maybe ten years from now both of these will prove to be inferior based on future designs. Just my 2 cents worth, I appreciate all the knowledge I have gained from gentleman such as yourselves by reading all the posts and opinions.

Good points but I think the key to Roger's post were the words IF and SUBSTANTIALLY.

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It also depends on what type of "full foam" insulation is used. From what I have read, many of the lower end full-foam use the less dense type foam which does not do a good job , but the higher end use multi-layers of high-density, closed-cell polyurethane foam and then there are some inbetween that use half and half. High density foam costs more $$$ which is why not everyone uses it, or uses it 100%.

Just what I've learned in my limited time of spa tech research.

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Brulan believes that the thermal foam insulation design is the best

and you believe that full foam designs are superior.

Most people can see that I do not believe the Full Foam designs are better. I also do not believe the Thermal style of insulation is any better. This is my point, they both work as long as they are done correctly and Full Foam is easy to do correctly. Thermal pane however is not so easy, it relys on an almost airtight seal which is hard to achieve unless you power vent for cooling in the warmer months, or suffer premature pump motor failure. And alot of people are decieved into thinking one style is better than the other. Alot also come here spewing there miss information regarding Full Foam and its defieciencys. Simply not true, it is a tried and true method that has worked for years and anyone who gives you the repair scare tactic or the heating without a heater BS line should be laughed at.

I personaly prefer over both styles a style that is not talked about much and that is a combination of both styles. Foam sprayed to differing thicknesses and reflectiv R12-19 cabinet wall insulation, to both hold heat during non filter time and utilize warmt generated from the motor use during filter run times. I have taken it one step further and thermostaticly controled and power vented the inside air space and completely air tight sealed the equipment area during winter months. And if you think this system will blow warm air into the water when I turn on my air blower you would be wrong. It takes exactly 7 seconds to evacuate the Cubic Feet of air inside my cabinet air space and replace it with outside air so no noticable difference there. The reason I mention that is I have heard sales pitches regarding the warm air from inside the cabinet being used to blow warm air into the water.

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. This may be why they have a 20year structural warranty.

I have to ask, Has anyone had any luck getting that 20 year mattress warranty honored here of late ? Anyone ? Anyone?. I am not advocating what type of foam is better but do not let a bloated structure warranty influence you. Read any warranty and see whats covered in Black and White with no exclusions no excuse as to why they may not honor it. Some makers put a long warranty on something they know is a total non issue or they have so many outs in it that if it is something that fails they still will not cover it. Look at the nuts and bolts of what they are covering.

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Most people can see that I do not believe the Full Foam designs are better. I also do not believe the Thermal style of insulation is any better. This is my point, they both work as long as they are done correctly and Full Foam is easy to do correctly. Thermal pane however is not so easy, it relys on an almost airtight seal which is hard to achieve unless you power vent for cooling in the warmer months, or suffer premature pump motor failure. And alot of people are decieved into thinking one style is better than the other. Alot also come here spewing there miss information regarding Full Foam and its defieciencys. Simply not true, it is a tried and true method that has worked for years and anyone who gives you the repair scare tactic or the heating without a heater BS line should be laughed at.

I personaly prefer over both styles a style that is not talked about much and that is a combination of both styles. Foam sprayed to differing thicknesses and reflectiv R12-19 cabinet wall insulation, to both hold heat during non filter time and utilize warmt generated from the motor use during filter run times. I have taken it one step further and thermostaticly controled and power vented the inside air space and completely air tight sealed the equipment area during winter months. And if you think this system will blow warm air into the water when I turn on my air blower you would be wrong. It takes exactly 7 seconds to evacuate the Cubic Feet of air inside my cabinet air space and replace it with outside air so no noticable difference there. The reason I mention that is I have heard sales pitches regarding the warm air from inside the cabinet being used to blow warm air into the water.

Most thermal pane have a 1" foam around the inside of the cabinets and than the reflective tape on the inside of the foam and on the floor to make around an R17. It is close enough to a foam filled to where it would not make a significant difference in energy savings costs, and should not be a variable to affect a purchase of a tub. However, finding a leak if not in the compartment area will be a hard job for an "amateur" repair technician. If you keep the PH right there should be no problem with any components unless it was not mechanically built sound from the factory to begin with. If you do not keep the PH in range that is Negligence and the customer should pay for there mistake even though we would give them the benifit of the doubt. I know our service calls have went down 90 percent since we started dealing the thermal pane from 2002. We had more leaks in the same manufacturer when they used the polyeurathane high dense foam and I think that it had more leaks because the foam made the pipes brittle and did not allow enough mobility in the pipes for movement and the problem came from the nipple inlet for the jets. The postive aspect of the foam is a little quiter generally speaking and it keeps the components hotter which is another debate in itself. Some people believe that it is better to keep the motors warmer but if there is not a sealed pan I think the heat can excape easier hence energy loss. As long as you go with a reputable dealer and a known manufacturer and the tub is compfortable when wet tested than go with it.

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Give that one a rest Brulan. You lose all credibility when you throw that ridiculous salesmanship theory out there.

I am just talking with 18 years experience with full foam and 4 years experience with thermal pane. I am not looking for credibility and am just sharing my experience. If you dont like it than share your own experience. ;)

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I am just talking with 18 years experience with full foam and 4 years experience with thermal pane. I am not looking for credibility and am just sharing my experience. If you dont like it than share your own experience. ;)

That is NOT experience. That is some concocted convenient theory you use in a sales presentation. Bring back the reasonable Brulan that was here for posts 600-650.

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Unless you do tp like Artic, it 's not tp, just a manufacturer cutting cost. Full foam cost more money, if done right. A lot of manufacturers have jumped on the tp wagon , because it's cheap, and they ain't paying your electric bills.

sounds like what happened to me with the COLEMAN 472. believe you me, i did pay the electric bill, big time!!!

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Unless you do tp like Artic, it 's not tp, just a manufacturer cutting cost. Full foam cost more money, if done right. A lot of manufacturers have jumped on the tp wagon , because it's cheap, and they ain't paying your electric bills.

Out of curiousity, what is so unique about the Arctic TP design when compared to Clearwater or Coleman? I understand the insulation is sprayed in on the wood side panels of the Arctic. The foam is then cut at the seams so that you can remove the panels individually. I don't really see all that much difference between the three spas myself other than Clearwater and Coleman use high density foam affixed to the side panels and have a steel frame rather than wood. It looks as though they also have high density insulation sprayed on the underside of shell itself. Can you explain with any quantifiable information other than the saleman talk?

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Out of curiousity, what is so unique about the Arctic TP design when compared to Clearwater or Coleman? I understand the insulation is sprayed in on the wood side panels of the Arctic. The foam is then cut at the seams so that you can remove the panels individually. I don't really see all that much difference between the three spas myself other than Clearwater and Coleman use high density foam affixed to the side panels and have a steel frame rather than wood. It looks as though they also have high density insulation sprayed on the underside of shell itself. Can you explain with any quantifiable information other than the saleman talk?

I'd say the difference is better insulation on the sides of the cabinet and most importantly, much less change for air transfer which is what kills a poorly contructed thermopane. When you hear about a spa that is killing someone due to KwH used, I'd expect it's a thermopane where hot air is escaping along teh bartop, corners, sides, etc. By spraying the 4 walls and floor they are greatly minimizing the chance for that air transfer to the outside.

I've always been a FF proponent and not a big thermopane fan but just the idea of what Arctic does makes more sense to me than the other thermopanes I've seen.

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I've always been a FF proponent and not a big thermopane fan but just the idea of what Arctic does makes more sense to me than the other thermopanes I've seen.

There are a few now that IMO are getting close. I think foam on the shell is a good idea for a couple reasons though. Any air infiltration through the sides will kill the effieciency. Sprayed on foam on three sides thick enough to support plumbing and hold in heat during non run times. And sprayed on foam on the equipment side just thick enough to not affect heat transfer out of the vessel into the plumbing (for freeze protection). Not the other way around, heat transfer into the water from the pump motor (I like my water 102 a motor on low is not going to create enough meaninfull heat) I will use a heater to heat. Pump heat works well for creating R-Factor and nothing more.

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Out of curiousity, what is so unique about the Arctic TP design when compared to Clearwater or Coleman? I understand the insulation is sprayed in on the wood side panels of the Arctic. The foam is then cut at the seams so that you can remove the panels individually. I don't really see all that much difference between the three spas myself other than Clearwater and Coleman use high density foam affixed to the side panels and have a steel frame rather than wood. It looks as though they also have high density insulation sprayed on the underside of shell itself. Can you explain with any quantifiable information other than the saleman talk?

You can beat your gums untill you hear your a**hole rattle and won't make a difference because they are Pro FF tub specialists. :P

sounds like what happened to me with the COLEMAN 472. believe you me, i did pay the electric bill, big time!!!

If you think that is bad just wait for another to take its place. :D

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You can beat your gums untill you hear your a**hole rattle and won't make a difference because they are Pro FF tub specialists.

Wow, I've never been referred to as a "specialist", thanks for the kudos. :D

If you think that is bad just wait for another to take its place. :D

So you're saying he's replacing it with another Coleman? :D

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