Foam Filled Or Partial Fill

[m3722]

I am about to purchase a new hot tub, but so far, I have gotten very mixed answers, regarding insulation. Arctic Spas for one, say that their system of insulation is the best-which is the floor and tub are sprayed but that there is a cavity open around the plumbing and motors. They claim that it makes it alot easier to work on and the heat off the motor heats the water as well, which cuts down on power. They also claim with a power failure at -20F, that their pipes and motors won't freeze for 5 days.

When you go to another dealer they claim the only way to go is full insulation.

What do you guys think?

Mike

[NightRyder]

I am about to purchase a new hot tub, but so far, I have gotten very mixed answers, regarding insulation. Arctic Spas for one, say that there system of insulation is the best-which is the floor and tub are sprayed but that there is a cavity open around the plumbing and motors. They claim that it makes it alot easier to work on and the heat off the motor heats the water as well, which cuts down on power. They also claim with a power failure at -20F, that there pipes and motors won't freeze for 5 days.

When you go to another dealer they claim the only way to go is full insulation.

What dio you guys think?

Mike

The dead horse returns.

Check out these threads...

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=770

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=781

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=519

NightRyder

[sharkman009]

I am about to purchase a new hot tub, but so far, I have gotten very mixed answers, regarding insulation. Arctic Spas for one, say that there system of insulation is the best-which is the floor and tub are sprayed but that there is a cavity open around the plumbing and motors. They claim that it makes it alot easier to work on and the heat off the motor heats the water as well, which cuts down on power. They also claim with a power failure at -20F, that there pipes and motors won't freeze for 5 days.

When you go to another dealer they claim the only way to go is full insulation.

What dio you guys think?

Mike

Oh Boy you dont what you've started by asking this question.

I would not own a spa that is not foam filled. Now you will hear people tell you they are harder to repair but that is about the only benefit in my opinion. A spa that is not foam filled is going to be more prone to leaks due to the plumbing not having support and when jets are turned on the lines will move over time the flexable pvc joints can weaken and begin to leak.

The foam insulation will help to support the lines as well as the shell. The foam will help to muffle the sound as the spa runs.

As far as the comparison when there is a power failure, a foam filled spa will hold heat just as well.

If you do choose a spa with the thermal lock I would stick with Arctic or Coleman. My opinion.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I like full foam but if Arctic and others can build a thermopane properly they can be a good option too. Here is what I've said too many times:

I hate to simplify things too much but to me there are 3 types of spa out there relative to insulation and as long as you get #1 or #2 you should be fine:

1) A full foam spa which definteily insulates very well IMO,

2) A properly designed/built thermopane. I'll agree that if you properly insulate them and eliminate air transfer to the outside that this method works well too but it's not just the desing that matter but the implimentation too.

3) A poorly designed/built thermopane. This is the spa to AVOID. Many of us have seen these type spas where there are gaps allowing air transfer and they use some thin ineffective barrier on the side walls that is supposed to elminate the heat transfer but looks better suited to wrap a baked potato in. This is one thing I would worry about if i was getting some of the cookie cutter spas out there.

[SmilinBare]

Go with the comfy-est one from the dealer you trust.

[turbottt1]

You knew this was coming. A very good friend of mine has a leading brand full foam tub. Yeap after 4 yrs. he's got a leak. After watching and talking to him we made a discision not to own a full foam tub. I know with our thermopane spa [artic] if we think were losing water we just simple open the side panels and take a look. No carving,digging,dies, or flipping the tub over. What does a person do if they have a full foam tub sunk into a deck?????? This is just IMO. FYI The only down fall that we have seen is when the filter,ozone cycles it raises the temp. in the spa aprox. 2 degrees. This is not a bad thing in the dead of winter, but as the temp. warms up outside and were trying to cool the tub off a bit it does make it harder. steve

[m3722]

Sorry about that, have been doing alot of research lately and had a few minutes only, on the internet this afternoon, after finding this site. Made the mistake of asking the question right away and then tonight, searching for answers. Boy, what a can of worms. There certainly is alot of discussion on it. It sure does clear up (sort of), that it's not as big a deal, one way or the other, as the dealers make it.

Mike

[drumstick]

Sorry about that, have been doing alot of research lately and had a few minutes only, on the internet this afternoon, after finding this site. Made the mistake of asking the question right away and then tonight, searching for answers. Boy, what a can of worms. There certainly is alot of discussion on it. It sure does clear up (sort of), that it's not as big a deal, one way or the other, as the dealers make it.

Mike

i have owned both. a coleman 472 and a marquis everyday 530 (full foam with a extra layer of low e wrap) i can tell you through well kept temp. records and kwh used with each tub averaged out that the marquis with the full foam runs about 1/3 the cost of the coleman to opperate. coleman brags up their "thermo-lock" insulating system but it is an energy hog. i am shocked when i look at the stat sheet from WE ENERGIES (my power co.) and compare, facts are facts on this end, i pay the electric bill and i am glad i made the switch.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

i have owned both. a coleman 472 and a marquis everyday 530 (full foam with a extra layer of low e wrap) i can tell you through well kept temp. records and kwh used with each tub averaged out that the marquis with the full foam runs about 1/3 the cost of the coleman to opperate. coleman brags up their "thermo-lock" insulating system but it is an energy hog. i am shocked when i look at the stat sheet from WE ENERGIES (my power co.) and compare, facts are facts on this end, i pay the electric bill and i am glad i made the switch.

That's what I was referring to. Thermolock can work well as long as it's designed/built well. Your Coleman must have been losing heat big time to cost 3x the Marquis. Maybe that's not indicative of Coleman in general but there must have been a lot of air transfer there with your results. I saw some Master spas this weekend and was appalled at the warped cabinets and obvious areas there the corners and sides could loose heat. I've got to get a look at Arctic to see exactly how they do this becaue they seem to have the better reputation in this area among thermopane spas from the comments I see.

[Canadian Kahuna]

Get a quality built spa, plain and simple. Don't worry so much over Full Foam or Thermal style, worry if the tub is of a high quality. I personally own an Arctic, and we have had no problems. While some can argue that a full foam spa will support pipes and stop them from leaking, arctic does have hosing that compensates for this problem, thus showing a company that takes time to go over the details to build a quality tub. I'm not saying they are better than a FF tub because of this, it's just one mechanical design that works, and several friends of mine have owned Arctic spas for many years and not once had a problem with a leaking line. Watch out for the cheaply made TP style tubs if you are interested in this method as they may have large gaps where there is no insulation, poor insulation, poor plumbing, the list goes on. The same goes for a FF tub, they can have poor plumbing design, poor insulation, etc. Just go with a good brand that is of high quality, D1, HS, Arctic, Coleman, whatever, you can search through the threads and you'll find certain manufacturers to stear clear from. Most of all, get it for comfort.

[Roger]

I am about to purchase a new hot tub, but so far, I have gotten very mixed answers, regarding insulation. Arctic Spas for one, say that there system of insulation is the best-which is the floor and tub are sprayed but that there is a cavity open around the plumbing and motors. They claim that it makes it alot easier to work on and the heat off the motor heats the water as well, which cuts down on power. They also claim with a power failure at -20F, that there pipes and motors won't freeze for 5 days.

When you go to another dealer they claim the only way to go is full insulation.

What dio you guys think?

Mike

In this case I would look at which dealer lied to you less in there sales pitch......LOL

A full foam spa with a small circulation pump will run all day on less power than a jet pump will use in 4 hours of filtering. And a circulation pump will be so quiet you can hardly hear it.

A thermopane spa will not heat with out a heater. The pump has to be running in order for the insulation to work as it is suposed to. The pump only needs to run 4-6 hours a day. How about the other 18-20 hours or majority of every day?

A full foam spa will be more difficult to repair.......... But for an experienced service tech, no biggy. 95 percent of all repairs are in the equipment bay, which won't be any different on either style.

A thermopane style tub will last longer in a power outage before the plumbing freezes..........But you had better have a plan in 20 below no matter what the insulation style because they will both freeze and if one freezes in 4 days and the other in 5, who cares, fix it.

[East TX Spa]

T.P. Cooter sez:

"Thermal pain beez de only shur fire way to fix yer leeky spa wifout havin' to dig through no foam! Foam is de devil's curd."

[poollady]

In this case I would look at which dealer lied to you less in there sales pitch......LOL

A full foam spa with a small circulation pump will run all day on less power than a jet pump will use in 4 hours of filtering. And a circulation pump will be so quiet you can hardly hear it.

A thermopane spa will not heat with out a heater. The pump has to be running in order for the insulation to work as it is suposed to. The pump only needs to run 4-6 hours a day. How about the other 18-20 hours or majority of every day?

A full foam spa will be more difficult to repair.......... But for an experienced service tech, no biggy. 95 percent of all repairs are in the equipment bay, which won't be any different on either style.

A thermopane style tub will last longer in a power outage before the plumbing freezes..........But you had better have a plan in 20 below no matter what the insulation style because they will both freeze and if one freezes in 4 days and the other in 5, who cares, fix it.

This subject can be kicked around until the cows come home, or pigs fly............but the truth is both ways have their advantages and disadvantages. The thing to look for for most consumers is what the spa is going to be used for (party, therapy, etc.), good Warrantees from the manufacturer, AND good service from a reputable dealer!

[greatwhitenorthguy]

Did anyone ever consider just what the TP system is doing to the pumps? Logically, if you enclose pumps that give off enough heat to keep a 500 gallon spa at 97F in the middle of a canadian winter, then you would expect those same pumps to bake in the summer. Not that I'm biased, I'm just thinking that if you enclose something that makes that much heat, you are probably drastically shortening its potential lifespan. Think of the last time you didn't have proper antifreeze in your car, it overheats and will eventually seize. This goes for the FF tubs as well, if there is no ventilation, your probably changing pumps. Make sure you get a pump warranty in writing!!!

[Guzz]

T.P. Cooter sez:

"Thermal pain beez de only shur fire way to fix yer leeky spa wifout havin' to dig through no foam! Foam is de devil's curd."

Hey Term, is that one of your competitors down there.

[East TX Spa]

Hey Term, is that one of your competitors down there.

Yep, one of the local TP proponents. I get a kick out of them, but they're pretty good ol' boys. You just don't ever want to go canoing with them. All of the folks that buy spas from them usually end up on the canoe trip and I've heard stories of what happens. Hmmmm......

Terminator

[Guzz]

Yep, one of the local TP proponents. I get a kick out of them, but they're pretty good ol' boys. You just don't ever want to go canoing with them. All of the folks that buy spas from them usually end up on the canoe trip and I've heard stories of what happens. Hmmmm......

Terminator

I've heard about those canoe trips, scary, but I also heard that if you get a leak in one it's easy to find.

[Spa User Guy]

Did anyone ever consider just what the TP system is doing to the pumps? Logically, if you enclose pumps that give off enough heat to keep a 500 gallon spa at 97F in the middle of a canadian winter, then you would expect those same pumps to bake in the summer. Not that I'm biased, I'm just thinking that if you enclose something that makes that much heat, you are probably drastically shortening its potential lifespan. Think of the last time you didn't have proper antifreeze in your car, it overheats and will eventually seize. This goes for the FF tubs as well, if there is no ventilation, your probably changing pumps. Make sure you get a pump warranty in writing!!!

I think there is some misunderstanding with regards to the sales pitch you heard, or more likely perhaps some misinformation from the sales person. It is not possible for the pumps to heat a 500 gallon spa to 97F unless the outide environment was about 92F. Water pumps generate a small amount of heat from the friction created from the impellers churning the H2O however not near enough to heat a 500 gallon spa. The theory is that the heat generated from the pump operation is transferred into the air space which in turn transfers some of that heat into the shell and then to the H2O in the spa. This would be a a very small heat transfer, not nearly enough to heat a spa to 97F in a 60F environment. Most of the heat generated from the pump is actually tranferred in the H2O flow into the spa, not radiated into the airspace outside the pump housing. The H2O in the TP and FF insulated systems both are very slightly heated by the friction created from the pumps but the heat transfer occurs in the water (H2O) with a very minute amount being lost from the pump housing to the surrounding air. In summertime or warmer environment a pump would fair slightly better in an outside compartment found in the FF designs because of better heat disipation, however again most of the heat generated is transferred to the water flowing through the pump. If the environment outside of the pump is extremely warm as in a TP design the water flowing through the pump would transfer the heat and act as a coolant, or cool the pump to the temperature of the water passing through it. Bottom line is: #1 The heat generated from a water pump will not "heat" a spa to normal operating temps (102F) unless the outside temps are near that. #2 The pump operating in a hot TP designed spa environment (summer) will not overheat because the heat is tranferred to the water and the pump temp can only be slightly higher than the temperature of the water passing through it. Really pretty simple when you think about it. I base this on my 15 year experience working with coolant pumps in nuclear reactors. So I say this to any TP designed salesman that tells me the pump operation will perform most of the spa heating function or the FF saleman that say the pumps will cook in a TP designed tub in a hot summer time environment....uhhhh I don't think so!!!!

[East TX Spa]

T.P. Cooter sez:

"Ya see, the flangdanglin' nooclur injunear is takin' de words right out of my mouf! Fool Foam in a hot tub will make you grow a third eye in the back'n yore head and yore childrens will glow in de dark! When it comes to de fool foam, just say naw."

[Brulan1]

T.P. Cooter sez:

"Ya see, the flangdanglin' nooclur injunear is takin' de words right out of my mouf! Fool Foam in a hot tub will make you grow a third eye in the back'n yore head and yore childrens will glow in de dark! When it comes to de fool foam, just say naw."

[fisrt timer]

Okay, this topic is making me laugh my head off East TX spas. Here is my take. I wanted full foam for the following reasons:

1) I feel that a fully foamed tub is a good way to ensure a descent energy bill. Some thermal pane designs in my opinion were in question

2) I liked the quieter tub

3) less flex in joints

My dislikes were:

1) Potential extra expense in case of a leak

2) Some builders use full foam as a structural member. Not a good idea since foam will break down over time and its structural properties suck.

My dealer that sold LA spas and Coleman said it doesnt matter FF or not, all spas can and will eventually leak. He said the big myth is that a FF spa will cost a ton more to get fixed. He said it was not true. As for energy goes he seemed to lean toward the FF. Now rememeber, the 2 spas I had it narrowed down to were the 2 brands he carried, one was FF and the other not. I would seem to think that he wouldnt be too bias on this. The reason I like the LA insulation so much is that it has a layer of open cell foam and a layer of closed cell foam to make up the full foam insulation. They then also add a 3rd insulation barrier on the inside of the panels. The LA spa does not use the foam as a structural memeber like many spas. The actually give it a true structure in the tub. This may be why they have a 20year structural warranty. In any case my final thoughts are that when I am sitting in it I am only thinking of the relaxation and not foam. Wet test and make sure that you are comfortable in the tub first and foremost. Dont get too caught up in the whole widget game dealers play. I like the build quality and design of the LA spas but if I werent comfortable in it, I wouldnt have bought it no matter how nice of a tub. I thought that D1 and hotsprings are very nicely made tubs but I thought that the comfort of the tub was horrible, for me at least. Someone else with a differnt build may fit perfect. WET TEST and let your comfort be your guide!

[Jack L]

(From the Hot Tub Resource Center)

Full foam insulation consists of filling the area between the shell and cabinet sub floor completely with a thick layer of solid, rigid foam. Over 70% of hot tubs manufactured today use this method of insulation because it is an excellent way to insulate and support the hot tub shell. Full foam insulation will keep heating costs to a minimum whether you use the spa indoors or out. While some spas feature full foam insulation, it is often a low-density, open-cell packaging type foam which doesn't provide an adequate amount of insulation, and can result in expensive heating costs.

However, multi-layers of high-density, closed-cell polyurethane foam (typically the same material used to insulate commercial freezers), result in low operating costs. "Closed cell" foam generally provides greater efficiency because it cannot absorb water. Here's a tip: Knock on the outside of the spa cabinet.it should produce a solid, sturdy sound, and not a hollow sound.

[turbottt1]

ROGER What are you trying to say here??????? A thermopane spa will not heat without a heater?????? Should that not include a full foam can not heat without a heater!!!!!! Think about it in a full foam the pumps can run till he#l freezes and it would not make a difference. Remember their pumps are inclosed in a little plastic box. { The pumps only need to run 4-6 hrs. aday what about the other 18hrs.} Please your not serious are you???????? In normal weather {60 or above] we have found that with the filter cycle set to run 4 times aday that our tub {ARTIC] will stay within a degree up or down of where we have it set. In a full foam disconnect the heater and see what the water temp. does. You can check it today, tomorrow or the next day and the temp. is only going one way DOWN!!!!!!!!!! And I don't care how many hrs. your little cir. pump runs. Let's put it this way. If my heater went bad and a new one could not be installed for 4 days I sure would hope I have a quality thermopane spa period!!!!!!!! Last question====== If my tub is sunk into a deck . What is the procedure to fix a full foam tub?????? In our case [ thermopane type] we simple open up one of 8 side panels look and see the leak and repair it. I'm not trying to flame you, but I think it's important to have complete information out there for folks to make a educated decission on. steve

[Brulan1]

ROGER What are you trying to say here??????? A thermopane spa will not heat without a heater?????? Should that not include a full foam can not heat without a heater!!!!!! Think about it in a full foam the pumps can run till he#l freezes and it would not make a difference. Remember their pumps are inclosed in a little plastic box. { The pumps only need to run 4-6 hrs. aday what about the other 18hrs.} Please your not serious are you???????? In normal weather {60 or above] we have found that with the filter cycle set to run 4 times aday that our tub {ARTIC] will stay within a degree up or down of where we have it set. In a full foam disconnect the heater and see what the water temp. does. You can check it today, tomorrow or the next day and the temp. is only going one way DOWN!!!!!!!!!! And I don't care how many hrs. your little cir. pump runs. Let's put it this way. If my heater went bad and a new one could not be installed for 4 days I sure would hope I have a quality thermopane spa period!!!!!!!! Last question====== If my tub is sunk into a deck . What is the procedure to fix a full foam tub?????? In our case [ thermopane type] we simple open up one of 8 side panels look and see the leak and repair it. I'm not trying to flame you, but I think it's important to have complete information out there for folks to make a educated decission on. steve

Well said, I must agree the only way the temp is going is Down with a full foam but why would you disconnect the heater in reality. That is a very good point though

[drumstick]

ROGER What are you trying to say here??????? A thermopane spa will not heat without a heater?????? Should that not include a full foam can not heat without a heater!!!!!! Think about it in a full foam the pumps can run till he#l freezes and it would not make a difference. Remember their pumps are inclosed in a little plastic box. { The pumps only need to run 4-6 hrs. aday what about the other 18hrs.} Please your not serious are you???????? In normal weather {60 or above] we have found that with the filter cycle set to run 4 times aday that our tub {ARTIC] will stay within a degree up or down of where we have it set. In a full foam disconnect the heater and see what the water temp. does. You can check it today, tomorrow or the next day and the temp. is only going one way DOWN!!!!!!!!!! And I don't care how many hrs. your little cir. pump runs. Let's put it this way. If my heater went bad and a new one could not be installed for 4 days I sure would hope I have a quality thermopane spa period!!!!!!!! Last question====== If my tub is sunk into a deck . What is the procedure to fix a full foam tub?????? In our case [ thermopane type] we simple open up one of 8 side panels look and see the leak and repair it. I'm not trying to flame you, but I think it's important to have complete information out there for folks to make a educated decission on. steve

i will add this: on april 1, 2006 i set my marquis 530 into the ECONOMY MODE at 8 am. the temp of the water at that time was 102. i checked the temp again at 4:50 pm just before it goes into the filtering at 5pm. the water temp was 101.4 . the high outside temp that day was 38 F. the morning outside temp was 28. so to drop only 6/10 of one degree over 9 hours at temps in the 30s i dont feel was too bad. marquis does not use the little circ. pump so that is of no issue here either.