How Many Jets Does It Have?

[Amanda]

I couldn't help but notice this being brought up under different topic and felt that it was important enough to have it's own.

So, some manufacturers count the actual full jet as one, others count each orifice as one (one jet can have numerous orifices).

A good representative will explain these differences and not try to be misleading.

[windsurfdog]

Amanda, jet count is probably the least important consideration a spa shopper should consider. The therapy that the jets and their motors/pumps provide is of much more importance. I bought a MasterSpas LSX. One reason for my purchase were my feelings regarding the therapy as compared to other tubs that I wet tested. Master advertised that the 2004 LSX that I bought had 77 jets. The two MasterBlaster jets each have 15 nozzles. So one could make a good point that the jet count is 49 instead of 77. Why does Master do this? Advertising, pure and simple. I brought this up to my dealer when I was cutting the deal and we had a good laugh about it. Did a jet count of 77 or 49 make or break my deal? Nope--but the therapy sure did.

Another consideration surrounding jet count is the number of motors/pumps that serve the jets, diverters that are used and plumbing method. But understand that all of this together contributes to the therapy received. The therapy and how you feel about it is the most important factor. That's why wet tests are so important.

My suggestion is to forget jet count, wet test, wet test, wet test and give the dealer and your feelings about him/her your utmost attention.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Amanda, jet count is probably the least important consideration a spa shopper should consider.

Many shoppers are not savy enough to understand everything you've stated so while I agree jet count SHOULD NOT be a major consideration the reality is that IT IS for many customers so it is a valid point to bring up.

[sharkman009]

I couldn't help but notice this being brought up under different topic and felt that it was important enough to have it's own.

So, some manufacturers count the actual full jet as one, others count each orifice as one (one jet can have numerous orifices).

A good representative will explain these differences and not try to be misleading.

Another key thing to take into consideration is the actual jet pressure coming from each of the jets.

I can remember listening to a presentation once where the salesman said "this spa puts out so much pressure the only thing missing is the seat belt to hold you in the seat."

I have sat in some spas that you could not sit in front of certain jets because it actually hurt from the pressure. thats why its so important to wet test. My opinion.

[windsurfdog]

Many shoppers are not savy enough to understand everything you've stated so while I agree jet count SHOULD NOT be a major consideration the reality is that IT IS for many customers so it is a valid point to bring up.

Agreed. I would venture to guess that the majority of those spa shoppers that are not saavy to jet count bs are impulse buyers......those that are taking time to make such a big-ticket item purchase, that take the time to wet test, to scour these forums, to gather as much imformation as possible, should be able to see through the advertising. Either way, the advice should be the same......

Another key thing to take into consideration is the actual jet pressure coming from each of the jets.

I can remember listening to a presentation once where the salesman said "this spa puts out so much pressure the only thing missing is the seat belt to hold you in the seat."

I have sat in some spas that you could not sit in front of certain jets because it actually hurt from the pressure. thats why its so important to wet test. My opinion.

100% agreed. Wet testing cannot be over-emphasized. That's why spa shoppers should be VERY wary of any spa retailer that does not allow customers to wet test. And those that encourage wet testing and make it as pleasurable an experience as possible for their customers should be held in high regard.

[sharkman009]

Agreed. I would venture to guess that the majority of those spa shoppers that are not saavy to jet count bs are impulse buyers......those that are taking time to make such a big-ticket item purchase, that take the time to wet test, to scour these forums, to gather as much imformation as possible, should be able to see through the advertising. Either way, the advice should be the same......

Thats why it is a good thing to have these discussions. This may bring up points that some may never have considered. Something that isnt a big deal to you may be a big deal to the next guy.

[fisrt timer]

Amanda, jet count is probably the least important consideration a spa shopper should consider. The therapy that the jets and their motors/pumps provide is of much more importance. I bought a MasterSpas LSX. One reason for my purchase were my feelings regarding the therapy as compared to other tubs that I wet tested. Master advertised that the 2004 LSX that I bought had 77 jets. The two MasterBlaster jets each have 15 nozzles. So one could make a good point that the jet count is 49 instead of 77. Why does Master do this? Advertising, pure and simple. I brought this up to my dealer when I was cutting the deal and we had a good laugh about it. Did a jet count of 77 or 49 make or break my deal? Nope--but the therapy sure did.

Another consideration surrounding jet count is the number of motors/pumps that serve the jets, diverters that are used and plumbing method. But understand that all of this together contributes to the therapy received. The therapy and how you feel about it is the most important factor. That's why wet tests are so important.

My suggestion is to forget jet count, wet test, wet test, wet test and give the dealer and your feelings about him/her your utmost attention.

Well you are right about how Master was deceptive in their advertisement. Maybe thats one of the reasons I hesitated from the brand. If a company wants to be that shady in their advertisement for jets, then what else are they hiding/manipulating? A wet test however confirmed that I did not want a master spa anyway. I di however; buy an LA spa. They have the same foot jets as master but offer more of them with more pressure than the master. Tey also are not deceptive in their advertisement. They advertise my tub as 61 jets with a total of 106 orifice openings. To me, a company that advertises the truth shuld be given some merit. I wet tested the LA spa and found it to be very nice for me. That is not to discredit anyones descision to purchase another brand. JEt count was an issue to me since I did enjoy the tubs with more jets. However; not all jets are created equel. The larger jets were more comfortable, than the small ones but I did want a seat with small ones for the time I want really high pressure. As for too much pressure in a tub, it kind of like saying too much horsepower in a car. Any good tub will allow you to adjust each jet just like a car has a throttle. If no one here has been aware of this then they need to wet test and try it out. I was unimpressed with the pressure on some of the Master seats, the Cal spas and Artesian. I found them to be very weak. But thast my opinion. To each there own.

[windsurfdog]

Well you are right about how Master was deceptive in their advertisement. Maybe thats one of the reasons I hesitated from the brand.

You know, that's all well and good that Master's advertising wasn't up to your standards. I think, however, for you to label such as "deceptive" is a mistake. I guess you are unfamiliar with advertising practices in general.

[poollady]

You know, that's all well and good that Master's advertising wasn't up to your standards. I think, however, for you to label such as "deceptive" is a mistake. I guess you are unfamiliar with advertising practices in general.

You're right about jet count. Some companies are even counting the little holes for the bubbler as "jets". It's not the jet count that counts. It's what they do for therapy.

[fisrt timer]

You know, that's all well and good that Master's advertising wasn't up to your standards. I think, however, for you to label such as "deceptive" is a mistake. I guess you are unfamiliar with advertising practices in general.

I am very familiar with advertising practices. Thats why I find it quite funny that comapny A with a so called master blaster style jet calls it 15 jets and company B calls it one jet in their tub. Hmmmm, lets see here. One comany is telling the truth and one has to trick the customer. Your right trickery doesnt equel deception. Ohhhh, wait, I forgot, that is the definition. I have sold cars and done retail sales myself. I know deception in advertising. If there is any area most notorious for deception in advertising it is in cars. This is why I can definitely say that a company that wants to tell me a master blaster equates to 15 jets is full of cr@#. Company B however is calling it exactly what it is: a single jet with 15 orifices. You know in sales there is a common theory that if a company has to bend the truth then they are trying to comensate for something. I tested a master spa, di my homework on them and found that they were comensating for things. This may also be why the master line up is full of the cheesiest dealers around. IMO!

[windsurfdog]

I am very familiar with advertising practices. Thats why I find it quite funny that comapny A with a so called master blaster style jet calls it 15 jets and company B calls it one jet in their tub. Hmmmm, lets see here. One comany is telling the truth and one has to trick the customer. Your right trickery doesnt equel deception. Ohhhh, wait, I forgot, that is the definition. I have sold cars and done retail sales myself. I know deception in advertising. If there is any area most notorious for deception in advertising it is in cars. This is why I can definitely say that a company that wants to tell me a master blaster equates to 15 jets is full of cr@#. Company B however is calling it exactly what it is: a single jet with 15 orifices. You know in sales there is a common theory that if a company has to bend the truth then they are trying to comensate for something. I tested a master spa, di my homework on them and found that they were comensating for things. This may also be why the master line up is full of the cheesiest dealers around. IMO!

Wow.....those are some strong opinions. Obviously a dead end road for discussion. Enjoy.

[Brulan1]

Wow.....those are some strong opinions. Obviously a dead end road for discussion. Enjoy.

oh boy.

[Guzz]

Wow.....those are some strong opinions. Obviously a dead end road for discussion. Enjoy.

I think First timer has his honest opinions and is not afraid to state them.

[windsurfdog]

I think First timer has his honest opinions and is not afraid to state them.

True.....but is continued discussion with him warranted when opinions are that strong? Like beating your head against a brick wall.....

[Guzz]

True.....but is continued discussion with him warranted when opinions are that strong? Like beating your head against a brick wall.....

You have to decide what hill you want to fight on. Hey, it's like a customer who comes in the store and says," How many jets does your spa have" like he's challenging me because he has been convinced by some guy down the road that that is the most important thing when considering a spa purchase. Now I have to covince him that it is not. Do I let him go, or turn him around.

[windsurfdog]

You have to decide what hill you want to fight on. Hey, it's like a customer who comes in the store and says," How many jets does your spa have" like he's challenging me because he has been convinced by some guy down the road that that is the most important thing when considering a spa purchase. Now I have to covince him that it is not. Do I let him go, or turn him around.

Certainly you would attempt to turn him....a possible sale and customer relationship could be developed. Since I'm not trying to develop any relationship at all with fisrt timer, I feel that further discussion is moot considering how strong he is with his opinions about MS. If he showed signs of wanting to participate in a dialog as opposed to a monolog, I'd gladly share a few other considerations. But considerations are all I have to offer.......and if the receiving party refuses to consider another point of view, then so be it.....no harm, no foul, no discussion. The telltale comment that convinced me that fisrt timer would not be willing to dialog was the "cheesiest dealers" comment.....put that with the sprinking of expletives and I think he made his point loud and clear.

[Guzz]

Certainly you would attempt to turn him....a possible sale and customer relationship could be developed. Since I'm not trying to develop any relationship at all with fisrt timer, I feel that further discussion is moot considering how strong he is with his opinions about MS. If he showed signs of wanting to participate in a dialog as opposed to a monolog, I'd gladly share a few other considerations. But considerations are all I have to offer.......and if the receiving party refuses to consider another point of view, then so be it.....no harm, no foul, no discussion. The telltale comment that convinced me that fisrt timer would not be willing to dialog was the "cheesiest dealers" comment.....put that with the sprinking of expletives and I think he made his point loud and clear.

Well it seems that you both have strong opinions, I'm not backing first timer up, but he has a good point about some cheesy dealers. I've seen these guys at work and they really smell of macaroni.

[sharkman009]

Certainly you would attempt to turn him....a possible sale and customer relationship could be developed. Since I'm not trying to develop any relationship at all with fisrt timer, I feel that further discussion is moot considering how strong he is with his opinions about MS. If he showed signs of wanting to participate in a dialog as opposed to a monolog, I'd gladly share a few other considerations. But considerations are all I have to offer.......and if the receiving party refuses to consider another point of view, then so be it.....no harm, no foul, no discussion. The telltale comment that convinced me that fisrt timer would not be willing to dialog was the "cheesiest dealers" comment.....put that with the sprinking of expletives and I think he made his point loud and clear.

Why is it that when someone else hears your opinion and doesnt agree with it that they have some alteriar motive?

The perception that people get for a lot of MS dealers is their own fault. And some of the fault is MS fault. Not all dealers are like that but look at the different complaints you see out there or the shady deals that have been made. How about the insurance program that offered consumers a $12,000 spa and told them they could get all their money back in 5 years. Master Spas reputation is their own fault and only they can change it.

[windsurfdog]

Why is it that when someone else hears your opinion and doesnt agree with it that they have some alteriar motive?

The perception that people get for a lot of MS dealers is their own fault. And some of the fault is MS fault. Not all dealers are like that but look at the different complaints you see out there or the shady deals that have been made. How about the insurance program that offered consumers a $12,000 spa and told them they could get all their money back in 5 years. Master Spas reputation is their own fault and only they can change it.

Alteriar motive?......do you mean ulterior motive? What makes you think that? fisrt timer laid his cards on the table VERY plainly.......no ulterior or alteriar motives there. Sorry, I don't follow your logic.

Indeed, not all MS dealers are "cheesy"....and those that paint with such a broad stroke show their own colors very plainly....glad you are not one of them, sharkman. The only two MS dealers I know are up front and honest business people--I'm very happy with their services and direct customers their way whenever I can. I can tell you this....the WORST spa dealer I've experienced is the local Sundance dealer but I would never think so shallow as to allege that Sundance dealers as a whole are "cheesy" or "smell of macaroni".

As for the different complaints and shady deals statement, you might want to deal with facts and specifics rather than making such broad, sweeping allegations....your statement sounds rather libelous to me.

Regarding the insurance program/rebate program or whatever it was......since that is no longer in existance and since this program was not limited to MS or even the spa industry (it was much more prevalent in other industries) and since it garnered so much negative publicity, it was a mistake. Now it makes for fodder for those who need it.

[Wmartin]

Windsurfdog, great post. Your dead on.

When I was asking about the pros and cons of Master Spa a month ago I couldnt believe the unprofessional blanket character opinions about the brand and dealers of Master, particularly from industry people. After researching the rebate situation (which many Master dealers didnt participate in), I felt like Master was okay as a company, regionally their dealers needed to be judged on an individual basis like all brands. The guy in the Pittsburgh market was great. In addition, a guy on here, his name is Greg in MI I think, is a Master dealer who allowed me to call him and talked to me about 20min even though he knew I was buying it in Pittsburgh, classy and informative not cheesy.

As for jets, I have no probem with Masters advertised jet count because they explained it to me. Should the master blaster count as 1 jet, with all those orfices? Either way, as long as it is explained I have no problem.

Wet testing is the way to go to figure out jets and therapy. I was surprised at the power and therapy I got from the Sundance Bahia, the Maxxus was obviously great too. The Master LSX had a terrific extreme therapy seat, but I couldnt fit into the other seats with the shoulder massage (6ft long torso). I couldnt see pulling the trigger on a high end spa and have to go from the extreme seat to the 4th seat of that spa if I was switching seats. In addition, but a secondary reason, with 4 little kids, the open style of the Sundance is a better fit.

[camfam]

Windsurfdog, great post. Your dead on.

When I was asking about the pros and cons of Master Spa a month ago I couldnt believe the unprofessional blanket character opinions about the brand and dealers of Master, particularly from industry people. After researching the rebate situation (which many Master dealers didnt participate in), I felt like Master was okay as a company, regionally their dealers needed to be judged on an individual basis like all brands. The guy in the Pittsburgh market was great. In addition, a guy on here, his name is Greg in MI I think, is a Master dealer who allowed me to call him and talked to me about 20min even though he knew I was buying it in Pittsburgh, classy and informative not cheesy.

As for jets, I have no probem with Masters advertised jet count because they explained it to me. Should the master blaster count as 1 jet, with all those orfices? Either way, as long as it is explained I have no problem.

Wet testing is the way to go to figure out jets and therapy. I was surprised at the power and therapy I got from the Sundance Bahia, the Maxxus was obviously great too. The Master LSX had a terrific extreme therapy seat, but I couldnt fit into the other seats with the shoulder massage (6ft long torso). I couldnt see pulling the trigger on a high end spa and have to go from the extreme seat to the 4th seat of that spa if I was switching seats. In addition, but a secondary reason, with 4 little kids, the open style of the Sundance is a better fit.

I have to agree with both windsurfdog and wmartin. I think that Master dealers need to be judged on an individual basis. Our dealer was/is unbelievable. They have been very professional, and haven't been deceptive about their tubs in any way. They explained to us, the number of jets, and that the foot blasters is counted as multiple jets. My opinion, they should be counted as multiple. They are stronger than any other jets we tested. Ultimately, a dealer who provides great customer service, is the ones you should consider. That's what we did, and are extremely happy with our choice.

[poollady]

I have to agree with both windsurfdog and wmartin. I think that Master dealers need to be judged on an individual basis. Our dealer was/is unbelievable. They have been very professional, and haven't been deceptive about their tubs in any way. They explained to us, the number of jets, and that the foot blasters is counted as multiple jets. My opinion, they should be counted as multiple. They are stronger than any other jets we tested. Ultimately, a dealer who provides great customer service, is the ones you should consider. That's what we did, and are extremely happy with our choice.

You're absolutely right. It comes down to the dealer in the end, not the manufacturer. Word of mouth is STILL the best advertising, so anyone out there shopping for a spa, ask the dealer for references!

[spatech (the unreal one)]

You're absolutely right. It comes down to the dealer in the end, not the manufacturer. Word of mouth is STILL the best advertising, so anyone out there shopping for a spa, ask the dealer for references!

If someone has an issue with the way Cal Spas, Master or whomever does business it certainly helps to have a top notch dealer but that may not completely wash away whatever issue you have. Similarly, if you are buying from a dealer who ends up being a pain it helps to have a top notch manufacturer to go to if you're in duispute with teh dealer. It is DEFINITELY both that matter and those of us in the busniness see the need to each many times.

[sharkman009]

Alteriar motive?......do you mean ulterior motive? What makes you think that? fisrt timer laid his cards on the table VERY plainly.......no ulterior or alteriar motives there. Sorry, I don't follow your logic.

Indeed, not all MS dealers are "cheesy"....and those that paint with such a broad stroke show their own colors very plainly....glad you are not one of them, sharkman. The only two MS dealers I know are up front and honest business people--I'm very happy with their services and direct customers their way whenever I can. I can tell you this....the WORST spa dealer I've experienced is the local Sundance dealer but I would never think so shallow as to allege that Sundance dealers as a whole are "cheesy" or "smell of macaroni".

As for the different complaints and shady deals statement, you might want to deal with facts and specifics rather than making such broad, sweeping allegations....your statement sounds rather libelous to me.

Regarding the insurance program/rebate program or whatever it was......since that is no longer in existance and since this program was not limited to MS or even the spa industry (it was much more prevalent in other industries) and since it garnered so much negative publicity, it was a mistake. Now it makes for fodder for those who need it.

OK lets deal with facts. As I said before and I'll say again not all dealers are shady or cheesy. I'm glad to hear that there are MS dealers out there that are not operating as the dealers we have seen.

Fact: A company came into our area recently(two months ago) and did a parking lot sale representing themselves as Master Spas. Their invoices said Master Spas. There were plenty of things about this sale that I could go into but heres the bottom line. Customers paid for spas that have still not been delivered, They cant contact the dealer that sold them their spas. They contacted Master Spas direct and Master Spas told them sorry it wasnt us and we cant help you (According to the customers that came in our store looking for help).

The customers told us that the manufacturer was not only of no help but was pretty rude to them. Now if the customers had no info on the dealer to go off of I may be able to believe by some stretch that maybe Master Spas had no idea who this dealer was but the customers had found that the dealers name was Mid west spas and all of the spas that had been brought in were purchased from the Las Vegas show where they had been displayed for a national show. Now there is no way that Master spas could not know who this dealer was. And in my opinion it would have been in their best interest to do everything that they could to help these customers.

This is only one of the examples that I could tell you about.

And for the record Windsurfdog I really dont care how my statements sound.

You say that The insurance scam was not only limited to Master spas but I can tell you the only dealers that I have heard of offering this were MS dealers. Maybe since it sounds like you know of other dealers that were tied into that you could educate us.

Nobody needs that kind of fodder.

[Wmartin]

OK lets deal with facts. As I said before and I'll say again not all dealers are shady or cheesy. I'm glad to hear that there are MS dealers out there that are not operating as the dealers we have seen.

Fact: A company came into our area recently(two months ago) and did a parking lot sale representing themselves as Master Spas. Their invoices said Master Spas. There were plenty of things about this sale that I could go into but heres the bottom line. Customers paid for spas that have still not been delivered, They cant contact the dealer that sold them their spas. They contacted Master Spas direct and Master Spas told them sorry it wasnt us and we cant help you (According to the customers that came in our store looking for help).

The customers told us that the manufacturer was not only of no help but was pretty rude to them. Now if the customers had no info on the dealer to go off of I may be able to believe by some stretch that maybe Master Spas had no idea who this dealer was but the customers had found that the dealers name was Mid west spas and all of the spas that had been brought in were purchased from the Las Vegas show where they had been displayed for a national show. Now there is no way that Master spas could not know who this dealer was. And in my opinion it would have been in their best interest to do everything that they could to help these customers.

This is only one of the examples that I could tell you about.

And for the record Windsurfdog I really dont care how my statements sound.

You say that The insurance scam was not only limited to Master spas but I can tell you the only dealers that I have heard of offering this were MS dealers. Maybe since it sounds like you know of other dealers that were tied into that you could educate us.

Nobody needs that kind of fodder.

Sharkman, you have great passion for your job and your line, good for you. If you dont mind me saying this, as soon as your source became a disgruntled consumer/s, the facts stop, it then becomes heresay. I will buy into FACT that there was a parking lot sale, that the dealer sold Master. I would hold Master partly responsible for there choice of distributors if there ends up being improper business practices however we dont know what Master really said or did about this. FACT is also you sell against Master Spa so some could say you have a biased opinion, so dont be overly sensitive if I add a slight caveat to your opinion.

What about the consumer, didnt they ask about the dealer when they handed over the deposit payment? Did they go to a parking lot at a bowling alley and give some 2k for a spa without asking questions? Why would they consumer walk into your shop for help? Did they get rude with Master first?, who did they talk to?

Here is another Fact, I dont know what happen but there are two sides to every story and in the middle there is probably the truth

Last fact- the bashers have side tracked another post - this subject is on jets