Costco Infinity Sun Peak Spa

[Bond]

So we are talking salesman talk that they are better and no documented backup at all because I do not hear any major negative feedback regarding Gecho or Balboa and Pacific uses Gecho so are they using a bad controller?

Anyone on this site no how much more it costs the Manufacturer of Sundance/Jacuzzi for there controller?

Also your remark that you get what you pay for?Yes and you can also overpay for something because it has a name.Look at clothing for an example or running shoes.Slap a big name on a tennis she,Golf club,Jeans and it sells because of the name.Is it better,will it last longer?

[mark2550]

So we are talking salesman talk that they are better and no documented backup at all because I do not hear any major negative feedback regarding Gecho or Balboa and Pacific uses Gecho so are they using a bad controller?

Anyone on this site no how much more it costs the Manufacturer of Sundance/Jacuzzi for there controller?

Also your remark that you get what you pay for?Yes and you can also overpay for something because it has a name.Look at clothing for an example or running shoes.Slap a big name on a tennis she,Golf club,Jeans and it sells because of the name.Is it better,will it last longer?

Bond, Ive been debating these same issues for some time and I'm sure quality over quantity has some say so here but in the end I ended up buying a used hot tub this past week it's about 8 years old it measures 81x91 its a low budget tub eveything on it is considered ancient on this forum but to replace everything like all three motors,heater and contoller I'm looking around a $1000.00 retail but I haven't even wired it up yet so who knows maybe it all will still work time will tell hopefully by this weekend if the rain ever stops here. I've had to do some work to the skirting and have ordered parts to replace one of the manifolds but so far my total investment has been $500.00 and since I work maintenance for a major corporation and rebuild pumps on a daily basis along with many more complexsive equipment I think I will do just fine with this tub remember it is just a contained area with heated water no rocket science here I'll report back hopefully with in the week to let you know if I got a bargain or just a water ornament but the end results will be a decent tub at a bargain price since I can fix almost anything with time permitting.

[D.P. Roberts]

So we are talking salesman talk that they are better and no documented backup at all because I do not hear any major negative feedback regarding Gecho or Balboa and Pacific uses Gecho so are they using a bad controller?

Also your remark that you get what you pay for?Yes and you can also overpay for something because it has a name.Look at clothing for an example or running shoes.Slap a big name on a tennis she,Golf club,Jeans and it sells because of the name.Is it better,will it last longer?

1) I agree with you about the clothes. Totally with you on that one. Video games too. The consensus on video games is that if it has a famous person's name on it, then the development funds went to the famous person instead of making a good game. Lots of products are like that.

2) What "documented backup" are you looking for? What would you consider "major negative feedback"? If there's a site out there with failure rates of various hot tub components I doubt you're going to find it.

As a hot tub user, I wish there was a "smoking gun" of hot tub manufacturer quality and reliability. Instead, you've got to search forums like these, and get a good sense of who knows what they're talking about, and who's making stuff up. You have to read reviews here and on other forums. You have to read the Better Business Bureau's reports for the companies and dealers involved (have you read Infinity's, by the way?). If you do all of that, you'll probably come to the conclusion that -as I said before - you get what you pay for.

[Bond]

I agree you will do fine.I stopped in at a dealer today just for fun and we started at $11000 retail,dropped to 8,500 when I was done.

So a lot of the final difference in price is not cost but markup.Not saying they are not a better tub but all the overhead and hype adds to the final price but not the actual build cost.

If I'm wrong please someone answer my post on how much more it costs in parts for the manufactures of Sundance/Jacuzzi/Beachcomber etc etc etc to build there "superior spas" and not just well its a better spa.

[Bond]

D.P. I see you are back.

I make my educated opinion like you say but I also work on systems much more complicated than these.I have completely plumbed my whole century home.I have done all the electrical.I have done the roof in Cedar shingles.I have repaired all my vehicles since I was 16.There isn't much I cant tackle.

You may be not be as technically oriented and so may have to rely on other peoples opinions.I do not know

I still cant really go with you get what you pay for as I have made some fine purchases and saved money by not buying a brand name.China is here and they are for real.Machinery that first came out of China was crap.Look at it now.The first cameras that started coming out Japan were not much.The first motorcycles to come out of Japan were not much.Chech then out now.

I picked up a stainless island range hood.Brand name with less cfm around $3500.Picked mine up for $500 and I'm very picky.People have comented on how good it looks.China is way ahead in styles and price.

[Bond]

So when I look at these expensive spas I just justify why they are the price they are other than they are still operating the old way.

Huge overhead such as nice showrooms like the Hot Springs showroom you posted pictures of.Beautiful brochures.Home shows.Dealers markup.All of this jacks the final price up way to high.

The actual cost price in material to build the Big flashy Brand Name spa verses the Infinity can not be that much more.

Just because I built you a home and charged you more than another builder does it mean that I built you a better home ?Perhaps and maby I just know how to make a bigger profit than the other builder.You buy my home and tell everyone that it is better and worth the $100000 more that I charged you but how more did it cost me compared to my competitor and why is it better.

[Roger]

Nope. I've said many times that Costco is not a bad buy.

Okay, what model tub at Costco would you enthusiastically recommend to someone who wants to spend no more than $6k on a new hot tub? Or would you tell them to go buy the used junker?

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.ph...amp;#entry32996

Well NW it really makes no difference what we say anyway so why do you even ask. There are several brands out there that are value tubs priced at 3-5G's that have proven there value. And none of them are made by Hydrospa. You have turned us into the bad guys while making yourself into some kind of martre....good stuff. ST said it the best, no one cares that you payed less for your tub, it was a good choice for you. IT IS NOT A 8,000 dollar tub. You can get a tub with a proven record of lasting for 15-20 years or more for 8 grand. But you can't get a Hydrospa that will have that longevity, I have seen it and hundreds of proffesionals have seen it in the 10-30 years or more they have been in this business. Yet you keep saying you got the same thing, you keep bumping it up to 10,000 to make it even more stupid, you keep sounding like you have been around for years and owned many, many tubs and have vast experience. But what it boils down to is. We have seen these units dissolve into a no longer cost effective to repair state in less than 5 years and we have seen a few last for 7 or maybe even slightly more, but never 10-15-20 years like the EIGHT THOUSAND DOLLAR tubs. An you have seen a 4000 dollar hydrospa for 1 year and most people can see right through your justification of your purchase. The Hot Tub business is thriving and Costco is not going to somehow ruin it for those who rely on it, plain and simple. Theres a whole lot of people out there that want a better tub then Costco will ever offer. Costco is buying them bulk at 3-3.5 G's and selling them for 4G's The dealers are buying for 5-6 G's depending on volume and selling for 7-9G's depending on market and overhead, and they are offering some services that Costco will never offer. 1. Finding a manufacturer with a proven record for longevity<====biggy 2. service after the sale 3. installation and set up. Is it worth the grand or 2 more the dealer makes per tub over Costco, to a lot of people and the majority of buyers yes.

Enjoy your tub, stick around 5-6 years. No other Hydrospa owner has, and we have seen plenty in the many years we have frequented this and several other forums. They seem to drop off the radar in just a few short years. Maybe there tubs disintagraded while they were in them taking them with, beats me. I have a Hydrospa to work on Saturday, 4 years old, seems it won't move water. Would you like me to keep you informed or will it not matter anyway because our experience and opinions are meaningless to you anyway because of your vast knowledge.

[Bond]

Lets not get nasty but you say n the many years we have frequented this and several other forums.2 to be exact unless you changed your posting name.

I take it this Hydrospa only has another year to two of life left.

[flibotte]

"China is way ahead in styles and price."

Yeah, the US is still years away from using lead paint in toys and using recycled cardboard in food.

[flibotte]

not to mention toothpaste made with an antifreeze additive. I'm sure the US wouldn't have thought of that for years.

[Bond]

Roger:

So I believe you so tell me.If I want a tub with all the features of the Infinity Sun Peak but I want a quality tub that will last past the the time that they cover me up with dirt what spa should I buy and how much will it cost me or is this an illegal question on this Forum and Tom will pull the plug.

[D.P. Roberts]

D.P. I see you are back.

Had I left?

You may be not be as technically oriented and so may have to rely on other peoples opinions.I do not know.

I am perfectly happy with my opinion on hot tubs. I have done all the research I need to do. You're the one asking for a documented comparison of component costs, which, if it did exist, you would undoubtedly not be able to get. Who is the one relying on other people to justify their decision? Can't you tell, with your mechanical background, that your tub is mechanically the same as a Hot Spring or Sundance? Apparently not.

Just because I built you a home and charged you more than another builder does it mean that I built you a better home ?Perhaps and maby I just know how to make a bigger profit than the other builder.You buy my home and tell everyone that it is better and worth the $100000 more that I charged you but how more did it cost me compared to my competitor and why is it better.

When the roof starts to leak, the more expensive builder comes out right away to fix it. When the cheaper one leaks, you can't get the builder to return your calls. I think that's a difference, regardless of how much you paid.

[Bond]

No the USA just drops all there pollution in other countries like Mexico,the Caribbeans,India and lets not forget They are in China and of course well involved in the disaster in the middle east..Were do you think the USA is doing its manufacturing?In North America or offshore?

[mark2550]

Makes you wonder why such large corporation like mattel and fisher price bought their products from china do you think they didn't know what they were buying or was it just a cost effective approach and better returns for investors don't let me even start with the politics behind this our government started all of this and america better wake up fast, sorry for getting off the topic

[Bond]

Lets all remain calm.this is just an exchange of ideas.

[mark2550]

cool

[Bond]

Roger Spatech D.P

So I believe you so tell me.If I want a tub with all the features of the Infinity Sun Peak but I want a quality tub that will last past the the time that they cover me up with dirt what spa should I buy and how much will it cost me or is this an illegal question on this Forum and Tom will pull the plug.

[Pathfinder]

So when I look at these expensive spas I just justify why they are the price they are other than they are still operating the old way.

Huge overhead such as nice showrooms like the Hot Springs showroom you posted pictures of.Beautiful brochures.Home shows.Dealers markup.All of this jacks the final price up way to high.

The actual cost price in material to build the Big flashy Brand Name spa verses the Infinity can not be that much more.

Just because I built you a home and charged you more than another builder does it mean that I built you a better home ?Perhaps and maby I just know how to make a bigger profit than the other builder.You buy my home and tell everyone that it is better and worth the $100000 more that I charged you but how more did it cost me compared to my competitor and why is it better.

Unfortunately you would be mistaken in assuming that many of the Big Flashy tubs costs are similar. In most cases those tubs cost a dealer a few thousand more to buy from the manufacturer. Huge mark ups are a thing of the past. If an HS tub cost the same to purchase as an Infinity and selling for what they sell HS Dealers would be lighting Cigars with $100 dollar bills.

[Roger]

Roger Spatech D.P

So I believe you so tell me.If I want a tub with all the features of the Infinity Sun Peak but I want a quality tub that will last past the the time that they cover me up with dirt what spa should I buy and how much will it cost me or is this an illegal question on this Forum and Tom will pull the plug.

You won't get all those shiny bells and whistles for the same price in Nordic, Great Lakes or Emerald, but you will get a tub that will work for 10 years or more. The same bells and whistles that are cheap shiny trinkets to get you to buy it. A Hydrospa bait on a hook.

And there is only one reason big manufacturers have our products built overseas and it's not because they are better, it's because they can get kids, old people and pregnant woman to build them for 1/10 of the cost of labor over here.. One of the reasons I am in the mechanical field, everyone needs the stuff I work on over here, and you can't get your tolet fixed by a pregnant chinese woman for 25 cents an hour!!

[Bond]

Roger Spatech D.P

So I believe you so tell me.If I want a tub with all the features of the Infinity Sun Peak but I want a quality tub that will last past the the time that they cover me up with dirt what spa should I buy and how much will it cost me or is this an illegal question on this Forum and Tom will pull the plug.

You won't get all those shiny bells and whistles for the same price in Nordic, Great Lakes or Emerald, but you will get a tub that will work for 10 years or more. The same bells and whistles that are cheap shiny trinkets to get you to buy it. A Hydrospa bait on a hook.

And there is only one reason big manufacturers have our products built overseas and it's not because they are better, it's because they can get kids, old people and pregnant woman to build them for 1/10 of the cost of labor over here.. One of the reasons I am in the mechanical field, everyone needs the stuff I work on over here, and you can't get your tolet fixed by a pregnant chinese woman for 25 cents an hour!!

What are those shiny bells and whistles that you are talking about?do you mean the stainless jets?Other than that what else?If this is the shiny bells and whistles that you are referring to and are these not availableet as a $200-$400 dollar upgrade on a Great Lakes,Nordic,Emerald?

About the toilet not sure what this has to do with this spa?

[Bond]

So when I look at these expensive spas I just justify why they are the price they are other than they are still operating the old way.

Huge overhead such as nice showrooms like the Hot Springs showroom you posted pictures of.Beautiful brochures.Home shows.Dealers markup.All of this jacks the final price up way to high.

The actual cost price in material to build the Big flashy Brand Name spa verses the Infinity can not be that much more.

Just because I built you a home and charged you more than another builder does it mean that I built you a better home ?Perhaps and maby I just know how to make a bigger profit than the other builder.You buy my home and tell everyone that it is better and worth the $100000 more that I charged you but how more did it cost me compared to my competitor and why is it better.

Unfortunately you would be mistaken in assuming that many of the Big Flashy tubs costs are similar. In most cases those tubs cost a dealer a few thousand more to buy from the manufacturer. Huge mark ups are a thing of the past. If an HS tub cost the same to purchase as an Infinity and selling for what they sell HS Dealers would be lighting Cigars with $100 dollar bills.

You said the spa from HS costs the dealer $3000 more so you are saying that the spa costs the dealer $6000 and the dealer makes an additional $20000. The spa is sold for $8000 out the door?

So when HS builds a spa with the same features as the Infinity but of course superior in every way.HS has to pay $500-$1000 more to build this superior spa.

So lets take the Infinity and remove $500 for shipping and now we have $2500 for material,overhead,profit.

Th big guy HS needs to get $3500 more from the dealer for their spa?

It still appears to me that there is a big jump from $2500 to $6000.

It costs HS this much more in material and overhead to make the same profit margin as Infinity or is HS making just a tad bit more profit on each and every spa.

I think I,m beginning to see why they are more expensive.

O.K. they are built better but again I can say it over and over show me were it costs $3000 more in material cost.

I can see were the $2000 Dealer middleman extra comes in to cover the nice showrooms,homeshows and commission salesman.That part I understand.

Don't go all ape on me,be nice I,m only trying to exchange ideas and I do appreciate your views.

[New NW tub owner]

Nope. I've said many times that Costco is not a bad buy.

Okay, what model tub at Costco would you enthusiastically recommend to someone who wants to spend no more than $6k on a new hot tub? Or would you tell them to go buy the used junker?

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.ph...amp;#entry32996

There are several brands out there that are value tubs priced at 3-5G's that have proven there value. And none of them are made by Hydrospa. You have turned us into the bad guys while making yourself into some kind of martre....good stuff. ST said it the best, no one cares that you payed less for your tub, it was a good choice for you. IT IS NOT A 8,000 dollar tub. You can get a tub with a proven record of lasting for 15-20 years or more for 8 grand. But you can't get a Hydrospa that will have that longevity...

So what model that Costco sells would you enthusiastically recommend to someone who wants to spend no more than $6k on a new tub? It seems from your comments that you just believe it is impossible to sell a good tub for $6k. And yet I soaked last night in a tub that I bought new for $4k only 14 months ago. You say my Costco Hydrospa tub won't last more than 5 years but you are completely unable to point to exactly what it is that will 'break' making my tub unrepairable. The shell? It's got a warranty from a company that has been in business for at least 15 years. The pumps? They're simple inexpensive things to repair or replace but they seem reasonably sturdy anyway and I have seen a lot of pumps in my day. The controller? It's made by a reputable company and is all solid state digital. Even if it craps out though, it would only cost a few hundred dollars to replace. The heater? That seems most likely to fail to me. When it does, I'll spend a couple of hundred dollars to replace it. Most people I know with hot tubs have replaced their heaters at least once. The cover? It seems pretty good to me but it's out in the rain, wind, sun, etc. so I'm sure it will deteriorate. I give it 5 years and then I'll buy a new one for $300. The piping and tubing? It all looks like standard stuff to me. So what model that Costco sells WOULD you recommend? Or are the only 'good' tubs sold by dealers?? <laugh>

Bottom line is your vague pronouncements about impending doom in 46 more months just sound like FUD to me.

[Tom]

I'm only trying to exchange ideas and I do appreciate your views.

This is a good attitude!

IMO opinions and views can only go so far. We do go around and around on this, in thread after thread. For example, see this thread .

It seems to me that very often these threads are long on opinion (we enjoy the arguments, I suspect ) and a little short on facts. In this post, I stated a list of concrete differences that we could examine. One criterion I suggested was cabinet construction.

Factual information looks like this: "The Costco PK14 spa cabinet is made from 1/4" recycled polyvinyl panels which retails at $3.98 per square foot, according to [this web site] while the Luxury Spas Fortuna cabinet is 3/8" fakewood for which I couldn't find a price. According to [another site], the anticipated life of the two artificial wood products is identical." (I regret that I had to make that all up, because facts seem few and far between in these threads! )

This is the kind of information that all of us can see and compare; we can check the sources and verify the information. If that information were true, you could draw as a reasonable conclusion, "The PK14 seems in this respect to represent similar quality at a significantly lower price, and therefore in the matter of skirt material represents a greater value ." Q.E.D.

Instead of facts, what did we get? One poster simply proclaimed, in red letters yet, "Costco has the best [cabinet]" and seemed somehow to think that he was offering a factual argument. You can see why this kind of vague thinking brings us no further forward.

So here is one specific factual detail regarding valves. The gate valve shown in jwillards photos appears to be a one-piece body, which is a step up in strength and cost from the two-piece body. That is, the spa illustrated apparently does NOT use the lowest-cost component available. (I say "appears" and "apparently" for a good reason). Even for single-piece valves, there is a wide range in specifications and costs. This makes it very difficult for non-technicians to judge quality - to us, one gate valve (aka slice valve) looks pretty much like another. If somebody wants to chase down that "Magic" brand, go to it. Still, let me draw a conclusion: Based on the photographic evidence, jwillard's spa does not use bottom-end valves.

Look into some high-end spas and you will see no slice valves at all, but ball valves. Does the average spa user have any idea of the pros and cons of ball valves over gate valves? Perhaps there are benefits and advantages, but would the Costco Gang even listen to them, or simply insist, "My Costco spa is as good as that $10,000 spa!"?

"My $4000 spa represents fair value for the money", is IMO a more reasonable premise. Seeing that jwillards spa contains at least one component that is a step above rock bottom helps convince me of its truth. A few more facts might convince me completely.

Argue on....

-----

BTW, some time ago, there was the excellent suggestion that SpaSearch create another subforum, to be called "The Back Burner" where these unending circular hooplas could be sent. The forum owner, Dave Woods, said he thought it was worth looking into. Crystal, Franci, Dave Woods if you're listening -- what ever happened to that idea?

[New NW tub owner]

So here is one specific factual detail regarding valves. The gate valve shown in jwillards photos appears to be a one-piece body, which is a step up in strength and cost from the two-piece body. That is, the spa illustrated apparently does NOT use the lowest-cost component available. (I say "appears" and "apparently" for a good reason). Even for single-piece valves, there is a wide range in specifications and costs. This makes it very difficult for non-technicians to judge quality - to us, one gate valve (aka slice valve) looks pretty much like another. If somebody wants to chase down that "Magic" brand, go to it. Still, let me draw a conclusion: Based on the photographic evidence, jwillard's spa does not use bottom-end valves.

Look into some high-end spas and you will see no slice valves at all, but ball valves. Does the average spa user have any idea of the pros and cons of ball valves over gate valves? Perhaps there are benefits and advantages, but would the Costco Gang even listen to them, or simply insist, "My Costco spa is as good as that $10,000 spa!"?

I've owned my Costco PE2 tub for 14 months and I have never once closed the slice valves. To me, ALL slice valves are pretty cheap. I'm not even sure what they are for. Maybe to shut off the water to the heater if it ever needs repairs? If so, I would just drain the tub instead of rely on the valves but maybe that's not practical for a repair tech working by the hour. As far as ball valves, I DO know something about those. A cheap one piece ball valve might cost $5 or $10 while the same size valve with a full port, good seals, and union connections might cost $50 or $100. I have never seen anything but the absolute cheapest ball valves in the couple of tubs I saw that had those.

[Roger]

A cheap one piece ball valve might cost $5 or $10 while the same size valve with a full port, good seals, and union connections might cost $50 or $100. I have never seen anything but the absolute cheapest ball valves in the couple of tubs I saw that had those.

Now we are getting somewhere. And this can carry all the way to every component in a spa. A shell for example can cost 6 hundred dollars to manufacture or two thousand. We already stated with factual back up that Balboa makes controllers for 200 bucks and 1500 bucks. Waterway...same thing hundreds of jets and plumbing fittings and several levels of performance and quality. Frames, it is easy to frame a tub for a few hundred to a thousand or more dollars. The list holds true for every component but one thing remains constant. If you pay 4000 for a tub you get a 4000 dollar tub, if you pay 8000 in general you get a better tub. Don't get me wrong there are plenty of tubs sold for 8000 that are not worth it. Happens everyday.

But this entire argument stems from the statement "I bought a 4000 dollar tub that is the same as a 10,000 dollar tub." It's just not true. One day maybe the statement "my 4000 dollar tub is just fine for my needs" will arise, but I dout it.

When I bought my GL I bought it at 4000 bucks because I wanted a tub that I could modify and still know it would last for 10 years or better with very little trouble. It had what I needed. I could of had a 8000 dollar D1 for cost but it was more tub than I wanted to tear apart brand new, besides it had the wrong insulation skeem for the modifications I was doing. But I had worked on 10 YO GL's and they wern't that bad, this helped me decide which value tub had a good record for value. I have not worked on any 10 YO Hydrospas, but I have disposed of 6 and 7 YO hydor's and worked on 4-5 YO hydro's that are falling apart. Skirting, framework, PVC pipe and fittings, pumps and motors, just don't last as long as the D1, Marquis, HS (yes I said Hot Springs even though I am not a fan) Does that mean at 4 grand it's not right for whoever buys it, not neccesarily, but it is still not a 10,000 dollar tub and it never will be in my mind. If you want to think that way fine. Just don't try and convince anyone of it with your limited experience or knowledge without a more educated opposing view being presented by someone.