Ph Level Climbs Every Day

[itabb]

I'll post a new picture. I got up this morning, looked at the pool. It is CLEAR. Like it should look. It wasn't cloudy before, just had a deep green tint. Now it is clear, or blue basically. My wife said she thought it still had a slightly greenish hew to it, so I expect that to be gone by lunch. Of course, I might get home and see it milky.

Incidentally, when it comes to removing the alge, do I need to concern myself with the solar heater or water falls, or will the supercholrinate take care of that?

I have a StaRite. Not sure if is 2 or 3. The larger filter is very heavy. The rubbermaid thing is a good idea, I have one too. Got to see how big compared to the filter. What about diluting the cartridge cleaner and spraying it on with a spray bottle, or using a low pressure nosle of my pressure washer to deliver the cleaner (pressure washer will take in chemicals and dilute to 1:7)?

[waterbear]

Sounda like the polyquat did the trick. Now start chlorinating to shock level like we talked about and testing until there is NO CC and the FC is holding. It will be easier now since you have killed off a lot of the algae with the polyquat! If there is algae on the waterfall I would turn it on now and let the polyquat and the chlorinated water fall over it....Most solar heaters cannot take the high levels of chlorine but if there is any algae in them it should be taken care of once you get everything operational...Don't worry too much about that now. Just get the pool (and waterfall) clean first.

AS far as cleaning your filter, do NOT use a pressure washer even with the low pressure hose. You run the risk of damagine the cart and if you have priced the replacements for yours you will see that you don't want to do that!!!!! As far as diluting and spraying on a proprietary cleaner, you need to consult the manufacturer's dirctions for that. Most of them have you spray it on full strength or dilute to soak. If you are using automatic dishwasher detergent then you can't spary it on....you need to soak it in something big enough to hold it submerged. Soaking only needs to be done once or twice a year, btw.(Or after cleaning up a bad algae outbreak)

[itabb]

fri noon

FC <.5

TC 1

PH 7.1

TA 60

Pool is clear, maybe slightly cloudy.

Added 4 gal 6% bleach slowly into the skimmer per geek's direction. Water turned shade of green, I'm guessing from the yellow in the bleach. running waterfalls.

After bleaching:

FC 6-9

PH 7.2

The pool is really green now. I'm very nervous. Is it because of the bleach I used? Will the green go away as the chlorine burns off? The pool also smells strongly of bleach.

[chem geek]

Chlorine isn't green and it's yellow color mixed in water completely goes away. The chlorine makes the pH go up when you add it and when the chlorine gets used up over time this is an acidic process and the pH goes back down. So it sounds like there is still a copper issue here since raising the pH will cause metals to precipiate (copper hydroxide is blue-green, for example). waterbear, what do you suggest? Is there not enough metal free, or equivalent, binding up all of the copper? Or is there something else going on?

When the pH comes back down as the chlorine gets consumed (which won't be fast if you've gotten rid of the algae and ascorbic acid -- the chlorine level will drop faster during the day from sunlight), the green will likely fade. The same thing should happen if you added a little acid to force the pH down a little faster. This isn't a solution to the problem, however, since you don't want to be on a roller coaster of greenish when the pH is high and clear when the pH is low. My guess is that more sequestrant would help, but let's hear from waterbear on this.

If the pool strongly smells of bleach, especially if it isn't a "clean" smell of laundry bleach but something more unpleasant, then this is likely to be monochloramine or other combined chlorines so perhaps all of the algae and/or ascorbic acid has not been eliminated yet (that could be part of the slight cloudiness you saw). And yes, as the chlorine breaks down, the pH should drop and (crossing fingers) the green color should reduce. So you've got two distinct problems here -- fighting algae and/or removing ascorbic acid, which is relatively easy to take care of through shocking with chlorine and a likely copper metal problem which apparently requires more sequestering (but let's see what waterbear thinks before doing anything more about that).

[itabb]

I know bleach has a yellow tint. I used the store brand and it did not look any more yellow than Clorox. I am a bit scared that the store brand may have extra yellow tint in it or something and is going to cause me a problem. But if you say it does not matter and the yellow goes away with the chlorine, I won't worry about it. Do you think I should switch to Clorox for future dosings?

I am also concerned that after 4 gallons, my FC appears to be between 6-9, but I only gave it 30 minutes. I'll have a better test tonight I suppose. Acid levels are suprisingly stable at around 7.2.

I'm really nervous about using the bleach. What if the yellow from the bleach never goes away? What if it stains the walls? What if I chew my fingernails off?

I am using Wally World Ultra Bleach (Wal-Mart Great Value 6%). I saw a guy from Hawaii using this as well in another post (smallpoolguy?)

[chem geek]

Relax. I can't guarantee what is in the store brand so if you are more comfortable using Clorox Regular (6% that also says "5.7% available chlorine" on the bottle and is registered with the EPA for use as a disinfectant including use in pools) then that's fine since I know that Clorox Regular is perfectly fine. The main concern with bleach is to avoid scented bleaches since they clearly have extra chemicals in them. You could also buy 12.5% (or 10%) chlorinating liquid from your pool store or hardware store if that is available. That will be less to carry, but is usually more expensive than "twice" which accounts for its double strength (but we're not talking about a whole lot of money here). I use 12.5% chlorinating liquid in my own pool, for example. But it's not available everywhere.

Do not worry that the yellow from the bleach will never go away -- it did go away when you added it to your pool, but the higher pH caused metal to fall out of solution. The equivalent amount of bleach in your pool even with a total of, say, 20 gallons in your 15,000 gallon pool is equivalent to adding 1 teaspoon of bleach in a gallon of water. So go ahead and do a simple experiment, if you want, to help you feel better about this. Add a teaspoon, ah heck, add a whole fluid ounce (2 tablespoons or 6 teaspoons) of your chlorine into a gallon bucket of water and then look at that water (you can put a white cloth at the bottom of the bucket if the bucket isn't white itself). Do you notice ANY tint whatsoever in the water? You shouldn't. Go ahead and add more bleach -- even one cup. Do you notice any tinting? With one cup in a gallon (with 6% bleach) you have over 5000 ppm FC in that bucket. That's over 25 times the 20 ppm FC maximum you'd ever have in your pool for shocking.

So keep up with the maintenance of chlorine level until the chlorine holds (at least overnight). After the ascorbic acid and algae are gone, then all that will be left is the metal problem.

[waterbear]

The green color is form the metals that you initially treated with the stain treatment. They are now in solution in a reduced (colorless and soluable) state and when hit with high chlorine levels they oxidized and became colored again. You never did say if you were treating iron or copper. Iron usually makes a yellow to brown color to the water but if the pool is blue then it will look green. You need to add sequesterant (NOT an EDTA based one but an HEDP based one like Metal Magic or Jack's Magic). There really issn't any difference between the walmart bleach and the Chlorox except that chlorox has soidum polyacrylate added which is actually a clarifer that helps dirt from redepositing back on clothes in the wash. If you can smell chlorine then you don't have enough! Keep testing and adding bleach or liquid chlorine to maintain the FC level at 20 ppm. Hit the pool with some seqesterant and that should get rid of the color from the metals. Just keep up the chlorine until your FC is holding. If any stains come back we will deal with them later but get some more sequesterant in the water to take care of any metals that are in it now.

I am not surprices that your FC is only about 6-9 ppm. the excess ascorbic acid has created a hugh chlorine demand and until it is oxidized your chlorine will NOT hold! Keep shocking! Let us know when the FC is holding and the CC is dropping. It might take a few days but stop worrying over everything and just do it. Don't worry about pH or TA or CH or CYA right now....Just your chlorine!!!!!!!!!!! Don't even bother testing them right now, it's a waste of time!

[itabb]

fri 6pm jun 1

Got home, pool is clear.

FC 0

TC 1

PH 7.2

Added 4 Gal of bleach.

FC 12.5.

Going to make another trip to wally world tonight! I'll have to wait till tomorrow to pick up some metal magic. I can put that in anytime, even during this shock process? What is your favorite -- Metal magic or Jack's?

Supplimental (9pm):

Went to BJs warehouse instead. 3 - 1.42 gallon jugs of Clorox Bleach 6% is $7.29. Jackpot. Bought 4 cases, dumped 3 bottles into the pool. waited 30 min, tested. FC 15. Dumped 2 more bottles in the pool, waited 30 min. FC 20-25. Finally. Set the aquarite to 60% and running. Pool still has a green tint to it.

Supplimental (11:30pm):

FC 15 - added 5 more 1.42 gallon clorox bottles to the pool. FC finally reading at 25. PH up to 7.8. Pool stinks. I cannot believe how much clorox I have put in the pool. 9 - 1.42 gallon bottles so far. I turned the SWG off -- worried it is raising the PH.

[waterbear]

might be better to pour the chlorine into the skimmer so if any staining occurs it will be in your filter and not in the pool. You can add the seqesterant at any time. In my area Metal Magic is less expensive than Jacks Magic so it's what I use. They both work well (as do several other ones on the market)

[itabb]

Sat, Jun 2, 7am

FC 20-25

TC 25

PH 7.4

Salt 3700

Pool is clear blue with a slight green tint.

It looks like the chlorine stabilized. It held above 20ppm overnight for more than 6 hours. I turned the aquarite back on at 60% to try to hold that level. I'll watch the PH. I am concerned about the salt level. It really went up and the generator will stop working at 3800. With Hurricane Barry coming through central Florida, we're going to see some rain here in Atlanta over the next 5 days. I feel for those Floridians who's homeowner's insurance will go up again this year, along with their property tax to also pay for the Florida underwriters homeowner's insurance. I was born in Tampa and lived there until last Jan. Ironically, I never had a pool until I moved to Atlanta. I digress . . . should I just leave the pool cover off and let the rain dilute the pool a bit or do I cover the pool when it rains?

Supplimental 12 noon

FC 25+

PH 7.2

clear

CYA 60 (store)

salt 4000 (strips) 3700 Aquarite

Seems the aquarite can more than keep up now. set to 30%. Turned on waterfalls to clean those.

I picked up Jack's blue magic for the metal. unfortunately, I only got 1 32oz bottle which treats 10k gallons. Do I use now or wait for the second bottle?

4pm - no change. guess it's stable so I can let the chlorine burn off now. turned off aquarite.

Sun 8am

FC 20

PH 7.2

clear

[waterbear]

Your salt level is fine. Aquarite won't shut off until it' hits about 4500 ppm. Don't lose any sleep over it. Your free clorine is above 20 ppm but do you have any CC? if you do you are not finished. Also, the FC has to do more than just stay high. It has to stay withing 1 or 2 ppm overnight. If it had dropped more than that you are not done. A drop of 5 ppm is a big drop but some it could be from sunlight. That is why you want to test the chlorine when the sun goes down and again in the morning. If therre is more than a 1 or 2 ppm chlorine loss you know it is not from the sun. Was your metal problem copper or iron. Blue stuff is for copper.

[itabb]

The test kit I have shows 15ppm and 25ppm. I am guessing that a color between the two is 20ppm. From 4pm Sat to 8am Sun, FC went from 25 to 20 (probably closer to 22-23 since the color was closer to the 25 than the 15).

Based on what happened during the shock, with the pool turning green, we concluded that the metal is Copper. Do I add the one bottle now, which treats 10,000, or do I have to wait to get a 2nd bottle and treat it all at once?

Incidentally, I tested the fill water:

FC < .5

TC < .5 and > FC

TA 20

CA 30

I just don't know what to do. I guess I could turn on the generator and kick it back up to 20 again and see how it holds over tonight. Probably a good idea to be sure. I'm going to do that.

Mon am.

Ran aquarite 100% all night

FC 15

TC 15

PH 8

I think you are right, there's still something in there not burned off yet. Going to get some bottles of bleach tonight. Bleach calc says I need 1.2 gal to get to 20ppm, assuming I am still at 15 tonight.

I found that if I dilute the sample to .8ml, I can multiply by 10 and the color is easier to match to either 1.5x10 or 2x10. However, I think the margin of error in the sample may be too great. Let me know what you think. I should probably use a dropper to be more accurate. It's 20 drops per mL, right?

[itabb]

Mon, 8pm

FC 12-15

PH 8

Salt 3700

Temp 80

Added 2 1.42 gallon jugs of clorox. Still a funny smell from the pool. Got FC back up to 20-25 range. Added 1.5 cups of acid to bring to 7.7.

Couple of questions:

1. How can I more accurately read the FC level? The red I get is closer in color to the 8.0 on the PH side than it is to either the 3 or 5. What does that mean? Is that less than 3, more than 3, less than 5 or more than 5? How to I read this to get the most accurate tint of color I can? And if I add the TC drops, how can I tell if there is any darkening?

[waterbear]

IMHO, the only way to get accurate readings is to get an FAS-DPD test for chlorine such as in the Taylor K-2006 kit or the standalone FAS-DPD test kit from Taylor (if you already have the K-2005), model # K-1515

[itabb]

Tues AM

FC 20-25

PH 7.6

You are right. I should have bought the titrate test kit. I read somewhere I should get the 2005 and went for that because I read that there is less room for error with the 2005. But I can't accurately read the colors for some reason. I guess with a high enough chlorine content, the color starts heading to purple, which is why it looks more like the 8 on the PH side than 5 on the CL side. Maybe that is more than 25. Also, the color of the chemical always seems a slightly different and lighter shade than the match colors on the chlorine side. I don't know how I am supposed to learn to read this thing. The color is definately darker than 3. The problem is, it's not pure red like the five. It gets a purple tint and I can't tell if that is more than or less than 5? It seems I can only order the 1515 from Taylor, and they charge so much for shipping. Is there anywhere else I can get the kit?

Anyway, I got what looked like a 12 last night on FC. So I added 2.84 gallons of 6% Clorox which should knock it up over 20, probably closer to 23.7, depending on the CC issue and what else is in the water. How do I know how much to expect to be burned off by the sun during the day?

This afternoon, when I took a reading, it said 20 and the PH is 7.4. So as chlorine is burned off, ph will go down, right? So 7.4 would be correct for burning off 4ppm? I have the aquarite on at 30 percent, so I guess more is burning off than is being generated. I guess without a titrate test, I am not really going to know if I can let my chlorine fall. Do you agree?

[itabb]

Tues 8pm

FC 20

Turned off aquarite, letting pump run all night. See if it holds until 8am, best as I can tell with a color test.

[itabb]

Wed 8am

FC 20-21

TC ~22?

PH 7.6

Last night, after the last reading, I added 8 cups of 6% bleach to get the level up to 21-22 just to be sure it stayed over 20. I'm pretty sure it is 20 or more this morning. When I added 0003, it was definately a bit darker, just a bit. So I must have some kind of problem going on. I added 12 cups of 6% bleach this morning which should bring me to about 23ppm to compensate for the burn-off during the day. Aquarite is at 40% to also compensate for the burn-off. This may be a bit more than normally necessary, but I want to be sure my FC stays over 20 and my wife insists on running the waterfalls this morning for pictures.

It seems I can order the titrate test materials from Leslie's web site as individual components. The DPD powder is like $7 and the Titrate drops are $6. I think my 2005 test kit has a 10mL mark on the bigger bottle so that would do. Does that sound like it would work?

[itabb]

Called my local Leslie's. They're ordering the DPD Powder and Titrating reagent for me. $7 for the powder, $8 for the titrate, $4 for delivery. Best deal I could find. Should merge into my K-2005 nicely. Just need to find instructions on how to use for FC and TC. Any links?

[chem geek]

Instructions for the K-2006 may be found at this link and should be what you need.

[itabb]

You guys are great. Thanks again.

Ok, Wed 8pm

FC 20, maybe less

PH 7.6.

Since I won't have my titrates for a week, and my wife and son are about to revolt, I dumped 2 - 184 oz jugs of Clorox 6% into the pool. Now I know it is definately above 20, and if my readings are anywhere close, should be well above 30. I'll let that stew over night and burn off over the next few days. Pool is crystal clear. I'll let you know when it is safe to jump in. I just hope I've done enough. Thanks again for all the advise and help. I'm going to be re-reading your replies to this post many times over, as there are a lot of things in it I still need to do, such as clean the filters.

[itabb]

I'd like to get your thoughts on this, even if it is to say everything sounds normal.

Thurs 8am

FC ~30ppm

PH 7.4-7.6 (just can't recall exactly)

No loss of clorine over night, none that I can detect anyway.

Thurs 8pm

FC ~12

PH 7.4

Pool was exposed to sunlight all day with the waterfalls running, and I suspect my CYA is around 40-60. I was waiting for a normal FC level to do a full series.

Ok, here's the thing. I am surprised to see the chlorine level drop from 30 to 12 in 12 hours. Are you?

[waterbear]

This would indicate to me that you either haven not oxidized all the ascorbic acid yet or you have some algae growing in the water. I suspect the first.

Why do you 'suspect your CYA is 40-60 ppm'? Ifyou have not tested it then do so with your kit. If your CYA is below 30 ppm this could explain the chlorine loss. With your salt water generator it should be between 60-80 ppm. I personally like it closer to 80 than 60.

[itabb]

Regarding the CYA, the last test I did before I killed the alge on May 31 was CYA 45. I also added 4 lbs of conditioner, which for a 15,000 gal pool, should raise me about 30ppm in CYA to 70-80. However, I find that the CYA I get at Leslies must be a lot weaker than they claim, because I seem to keep adding it and 4 lbs only raises me about 10-20ppm. Tomorrow is 1 week and I was going to re-test the CYA to see what the current level is. And the conditioner is so expensive at $20 for 4 lbs. Is dichlor cheaper? Maybe I should augment my SWG with dichlor. Anyway, it's really aggrivating that you only get 5 CYA tests out of the K2005. Any idea what I could do about this?

One other thing, my test results could be really off because of the DPD. My titrate test kit won't be in for a week or so. I'm thinking I did the best I could for now, and once I get the test in, I'll watch for CCs and super shock as needed then.

[waterbear]

If your pool is 15k then 4 lbs CYA should be raising your pool about 34 ppm! I suspect either your pool is bigger than you think or that your testing method is incorrect. To test for CYA you put the pool water in the sample bottle to the first line, fill to the second line with reagent. Shake the bottle for 30 seconds and then let it sit for 3-5 minutes. Your water sample should be between 70-80 degrees before testing. If it's warmer or colder it can give you a false low reading. After sitting give the bottle another shake and then start dispensing it into the view tube, which should be held about waist level, until the black dot is no longer visible. I like to stand outside but not in the sun, I stand in open shade when I do this test.

[itabb]

I missed the 3-5 minute thing. I tested it this morning. I did as you said, and shook for about a minute. Then I tested. CYA 47. I did not let it sit for 3-5 minutes. I had enough to check for the black dot twice, and both times, 47. I hate to add another 4 lbs, but I guess I'll have to once the FC gets to normal and after I clean the filter.

FC 15