Ph Level Climbs Every Day

[itabb]

I have a gunite pool, 15,000 gallons, with a solar heater and paper filter system. I have an ongoing problem where the PH seems to go up a lot each day. I check the pool every morning. It usually reads 7.8 or higher. Then I check the acid demand and add between 1 and a half cups to 3 cups of Muratic Acid each morning.

I don't run the pumps over night and the pool cover (automatic - coverstar) is over the pool over night. I check the water in the morning, and turn on the pump when I add the acid.

My question is what kinds of things could be causing the PH to go up so fast? Maybe I should be testing every night?

I keep the chlorine generator at 35% right now and run all day long so that the solar heater warms the pool. My test showed the free chlorine level at 1.5 (store today said 2 for free and total chlorine).

I am also having trouble determining the salt level. The generator said 2200 last week, the store said 2900. So I added a bag of salt per the recommendation of the customer service from the generator company. Now the machine says 2700 and the store says 2400. The store gave me some salt test strips to test at the pool.

There's a bit of history I should relate as well. The pool is probabably about 5 years old. I bought the house in Jan. The first test showed the hardness and alkalinity nearly zero, so I had to add like 40 lbs of hardness and 15lbs of alkalinity up. Then the cyanuric acid was low, at 5, so I have added just over 12 lbs of conditioner and now I am at 50. I've been trying to get to 80, per the generator's documentation. A few weeks ago, we realized that the chlorine levels were way off the chart, because I had started running the pool from 2 hours a day in the winter to 10 hours a day in the spring (for heat) without adjusting the generator's capacity. So I shut down the generator and a week and a half later, the pool read zero chlorine. So I added 2 containers of absorbic acid to remove the metal stains (worked great!!!), added MetalFree, and ran the motor 24 hours. 24 hours later, the pool was cloudy. 2 days later, with the generator running at 100%, it was still cloudy and the chlorine level was only at .5. So I cleaned the filters and added 12oz of Ultrabright. 24 hours later, the pool was clear and the chlorine is at 1. Now, a few days later, chlorine is at 2, generator is at 35%, water is clear, PH climbs like crazy, and the water burns my eyes terribly if I keep them open underwater for more than a few seconds. As an example, I checked the water this morning and the acid demand said add 3 cups of acid. I did. Turned the pumps on. An hour later, I picked up a water sample, took it to the store, 7.6. Should have been 7.2.

No one at the store seems to have any idea what is going on. It's like I'm waiting for something to break. Any idea why I am fighting the PH would help greatly. Did I miss a step with the Absoric Acid. Am I testing the water at the wrong times? Any advice would help.

[chem geek]

The pH rises because the SWG produces lots of tiny hydrogen gas bubbles (you can see them clearly at night if you have a pool light and turn on your pump and SWG) and these bubbles aerate the water pulling out the carbonates and carbon dioxide from the water and outgassing them to the air. This causes a rise in pH with no change in Total Alkalinity (TA). Then, your later addition of acid lowers both pH and TA. Most pool stores and those in the industry claim that the SWG production of chlorine makes the pH rise but that is not true because the initial pH rise from chlorine production is exactly counteracted by the pH drop that occurs when chlorine gets consumed (broken down by sunlight, oxidizing ammonia or an organic, etc.) so once you have stable and constant chlorine generation and destruction, there is no net pH change from the chlorine. People adding chlorinating liquid or bleach to their pools do not experience a strong pH rise unless they have aeration features -- my own pool has a rock solid pH, for example, as I use chlorinating liquid and have a pool cover.

You need to understand that pool's are intentionally "over-carbonated" similar to a tasty carbonated beverage (though not as carbonated) so all pools will tend to outgas carbon dioxide and rise in pH, but the difference is in how quickly. This over-carbonation is done intentionally to have a pH buffer and to add carbonates for calcium carbonate saturation to protect plaster/gunite/grout. Factors that cause a greater outgassing and therefore a faster rise in pH are a low pH, high TA and lots of aeration. If you have any aeration features in addition to your SWG, such as waterfalls, fountains, spillovers (negative edge, etc.), see if things improve by turning them off. If your TA is above 80, try lowering your TA to 80 (if you didn't see the other posts saying how to lower TA, let me know and I'll post here about the procedure). Also, set a higher pH target for your pool, such as 7.7 instead of 7.5.

In addition to the lower TA and higher pH, you can also add 50 ppm Borates (20 Mule Team Borax or Proteam Supreme) to the pool as that is an algaecide that lowers chlorine usage thereby letting you cut down SWG on-time which cuts down the aeration. If you raise your CYA to 80 ppm, that should also help cut down chlorine losses and let you lower SWG output. Lower SWG output means less aeration which means less outgassing of carbon dioxide which means less pH rise -- a long chain of events.

[itabb]

What you have said make a lot of sense. I have waterfalls, and I used them all day yesterday. One other factor I forgot to mention, and this assuredly impacts the outgassing of the carbon dioxide and chlorine is that I tend to keep the pool water heated between 88 degrees (night) and 92 (day). I live in Atlanta, so it is still cool enough and dry enough that we get cold when the pool is not right around 90. I am betting this is having a big impact. I'll search for the procedure to lower TA and get to work on all of these factors of the next week and let you know how it works out.

I am not finding specific instructions on lowering TA. It seems from what I read here that I should lower PH to 7.0 and this will reduce TA. In regards to the Borates, how do I test to see that the pool is at 50ppm?

[itabb]

Something else I should mention. When I stopped generating chlorine for a week to treat the pool for metal stains, the PH continued to rise, though not as fast, even as the chlorine was dropping. Any idea why this would happen?

[chem geek]

The water temperature isn't a huge factor in the outgassing rate. It does have some affect, but it's not as much as you might think because of the multiple carbonate species in the water (the higher temperature actually holds more carbon dioxide in the water).

Your pool still rose in pH with the SWG off because your TA is probably high and if you had the waterfall on then the aeration would also make the pH rise faster. You never said what your Total Alkalinity (TA) level was nor your Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level. If you let me know what those are, then we can see how low you can safely lower your TA. You should probably let me know the Calcium Hardness (CH) level as well. If you give me the size (in gallons) of your pool, then I can tell you how much acid you will need to lower the TA in the following procedure.

The procedure to lower the Total Alkalinity is as follows:

ACTIVITY .......... pH .... TA ... In your case (assuming 6.8 is the lowest measurement on the pH test kit)

==================

Acid ..................... - ........ - ... Add enough acid to bring pH down to 7.0

Aeration ............. + ....... 0 ... Aerate until pH rises to 7.2

Acid ..................... - ........ - ... Add enough acid to bring pH down from 7.2 to 7.0 (you may continue to aerate while you do this)

---------------------------------

Aeration & Acid .. 0 ....... - ... Continue this combination (cycling of the two above) until TA is at the target you want

then AFTER you have reached your target TA,

Aeration .............. + ....... 0 ... Aerate until the pH rises to your target pH (say, 7.5).

==================

Net of Above ....... 0 ........ -

Aeration would include running your SWG, running your waterfall, adding any fountains or other aeration features, getting an air compressor with a nozzle that produces tiny bubbles and putting that in the deep end of the pool, etc.

[itabb]

15,000 gallons gunite pool

last store reading, today:

FC 2

TC 2

PH 7.6

TA 120

Cal Hard 390

CYA 50

Salt 2300 - strip

My reading from same sample, earlier in the day:

FC 1.5

PH 7.8-8

Salt (AquaRite) 2700

As of this evening, I have started the TA reduction to 80. The gen is on superchlorinate and the waterfalls are running. I added 10 cups of acid and it is reading 7.2 before the last 3 cups. I am going to wait until morning to take another reading. FC is 1.

Cal Hard seems high. I'll check the fill water tomorrow and get an idea if I should partially drain and refill.

Incidentally, I started the season at 5 CYA, and I have added 12 lbs of conditioner, which only brought it to 50.

[chem geek]

Actually, a high CH is a good thing in your case since you can get away with a lower TA and still have calcium carbonate saturation. So don't drain/refill. I'll write more tomorrow about your numbers.

[itabb]

I made a mistake this morning.

I took readings of the FC and PH.

FC 1.5 (initial reading), but then 3+ when I let it sit for a minute. I used Taylor 0001 and 0002.

PH 7.2

I checked acid demand to 6.8. 3+. I added 5 cups of acid.

Here's the mistake. It occurred to me to see how the TA did overnight. With the collected sample I had (collected before adding 5 cups of acid), I checked TA.

TA 70.

It seems I moved from 120 to 70 overnight. I probably should have collected my own baseline as well instead of relying on the store's measurement of 120, though historically, my measurements have been within 10ppm of the store's.

Anyway, the PH should be around 6.8-7. And I don't need to burn off any more, it seems. I don't want to overreact, again, so I am going to wait for your advise on what I should do next. Should I leave it alone and wait for the PH to return to normal (superchlorinate on and waterfalls on) or adjust the PH up to 7.2?

Does anyone know if BJs or Costco sells the Borate in bulk?

[chem geek]

If your TA is truly at 70 ppm, then you can simply let the pH rise, which it will, based on your SWG and waterfall or you can accelerate it through more intense aeration -- up to you. Try and maintain a pH target close to 7.7 and see if that is acceptable to you in terms of how frequently you need to add acid. It will certainly be less acid that you will need to add cumulatively and may be less frequent as well. Do NOT add anything to make the pH rise -- just aerate.

IF your initial numbers of TA 120, CYA 50, pH 7.6 were correct, then to get to TA 70, pH 7.0 would have taken 24 cups of Muriatic Acid initially to get to pH 7.0 and the TA would have been at 70 at which point you would have just aerated to get the pH back up. Since you added far less than that, you are right that the TA may not have been as high as you initially thought.

Anyway, if you stick with the TA of 70 and let the pH rise (through aeration) to 7.7, then with your 390 CH your pool will be in great water balance and the tendency for outgassing of carbon dioxide will be about a factor of 3 less. Aeration will cause the pH to rise with no change in TA.

So relax, let your pool aerate, and see how things are when the pH is at 7.7 and post your results (i.e. how much acid you need to add and how frequently over the next week).

[itabb]

Noon readings:

FC 2 (or maybe 3 if I let it sit for a couple of min - not sure how to use 0001 and 0002 . . . do I read immediately or wait?)

PH 7.2 (3 drops to 6.8)

TA 60

Temp 87

I reviewed my inventory. I used a gallon and a half of acid in the last 36 hours, mostly in the last 24. That's 24 cups of acid, give or take a cup. Your calculations are amazing!!!

Superchlorinate is still on. I am amazed at how fast the PH went from 7 (where I tried to put it this morning at 8am to 7.2 at noon.

I'll keep checking my PH and collect a TA when PH reaches 7.6 - 7.8 (best I can read on my test kit.

[chem geek]

At this point, you aren't in any particular rush so if you just want to start using your pool, that's fine. Your waterfall will provide aeration and your pH will continue to rise on its own. You can put the SWG into normal mode to maintain a 2-3 ppm FC level (for your 50 ppm CYA level -- SWG systems can run with somewhat lower FC levels than non-SWG systems due to super-clorination in the SWG cell). I'm just saying that you don't need to think about adding any acid to lower the pH until it gets above 7.7 and to see the rate at which it climbs when it gets near that pH.

The accuracy of the numbers for amount of acid is because it's an exact calculation, but since the measurements are not so exact (especially pH), the fact that it was so close is at least partly a coincidence. Anyway, I think your pool's in good shape now so be sure to report back when the pH is up around 7.7 and let us know if you are using less acid to maintain that pH. When your pH gets closer to 7.7, then if your TA is still measuring at 60 you might consider either bumping it up a bit to 70 or adding a little more calcium to your pool (usually via Calcium Chloride), but you can post later and let us know how you're doing and we can go from there.

[waterbear]

"FC 2 (or maybe 3 if I let it sit for a couple of min - not sure how to use 0001 and 0002 . . . do I read immediately or wait?)"

Read it immediately after mixing to get your Free Chlorine. Then add the R-0003, cap and mix and read immedaitely to get the Total Chlorine.

(does anyone else have problems with quoting replies since the software was upgraded? It won't let me post if I quote.)

[itabb]

wed may 30 6:30pm

FC 1.0

PH 7.2-7.4

Superchlorinate cycle completed (24 hours) around 5pm and the FC ended up lower. I started the filter pump again and set the aquarite to 100% output. Just going to run it until the FC hits 3. Leaving the water falls on until PH hits 7.6-7.8. I suppose I should get a better, more specific test kit. Any recommendations?

[chem geek]

Mmmmmm. I'm concerned that your FC level is not being readily maintained. There is nothing about the lowering TA process that affects the chlorine level except that possibly the aeration is causing some outgassing of chlorine (hypochlorous acid) itself. That does happen in a hot tub environment at higher temperatures, but this would be the first time I've heard of this happening in a pool. Yes, keep your SWG on if the FC isn't maintained -- it's just weird. I wonder if the SWG output is affected by pH. Keep us posted with what happens to the FC level as the pH goes up.

[itabb]

Thursday 7:00am

Aerated all night. Pool Cover off. Aquarite ran all night at 100%.

Water Temp 83

Pool is green

FC 1

PH 8 (1 drop to 7.4-7.6) - added the rest of my acid, prob 1 cup.

Salt Strip test: 2520 Aquarite reading 2800

I covered the pool, turned off the waterfalls, and am leaving the aquarite on. Will take a sample to the pool store.

I'll probably buy another gallon of Acid, and 2 bags of salt. I can only guess that the FC cannot be maintained because there is not enough salt. However, this was not a problem before. Everything has gotten out of wack since I used 4 lbs of Stain Remover (ascorbic acid). After I did this, the pool was cloudy a day later. That's when I pressurewashed the paper filter. Since then, the FC won't go above 2 and when I open my eyes underwater, it hurts an incredible ammount. I can only open my eyes for a few seconds (yesterday evening). The ocean doesn't hurt this much.

What should I do at this point? Are there any special tests I should have the pool store perform?

[waterbear]

OK, understand what the problem is....you have a few things going on. First Ascorbic acid will create a HUGE chlorine demand until it is all oxidized by the clorine. You overdosed on it big time! the usual dosage is 1 lb per 10000 gallons so you only needed 1.5 lbs for your pool! Second, your salt level is very low. The readout on the AquaRite is not a salt meter but a conductivity meter that approximates your salt level. The strips are a chemical test and will be much more accurate. You need salt. The recommened level is 3200 ppm but I like to run it slightly higher, around 3400 ppm because it puts less stress on the salt cell. I assume you have a Taylor K-2005 test kit? Post a full set of results so we can take it from here.

To address your problem you need to do a few things and have some patience!

First, get your salt level up. You need to add 100 lbs. This should raise you 800 ppm to about 3300 ppm.

Next you need to get your CYA up about 20 ppm. 2 lbs should bring you up about 17 ppm which is close enough for government work. Do NOT clean the filter for a week after adding it or you will lose some of it!

Next, you need to take care of the algae from the low chlorine condition. Get some polyquat 60 algaecide. Do NOT use anything but polyquat 60! Look for the ingredient poly[oxyethylene(dimethyliminio)ethylene-(dimethyliminio)ethylene dichloride] on the bottle and you have the right thing. Dose according to bottle directions and run the pump for 24 hours after adding.

About 12-24 hours after adding the poly quat we can start attacking the chlorine demand that you have! You are going to need bleach and a lot of it! (you can also use 12.5% chlorine from the pool store if you prefer. You will need less of it since it is the same things as bleach but more concentrated). You want to add enough bleach or liquid chlorine directly into your skimmer 2 or three times a day to raise the pool to shock level (20 ppm) until your FC is holding overnight and the pool is clear. (You want to pour it slowly into the skimmer because this way it lessens the possibility that any staining will reappear in your pool but will more likely stain the filter, which is what you want. At first the ascorbic acid and the algae will be eating the chlorine but it will finally start to hold. Your SWG just can't keep up with it even in superchlorinate and it's better to use bleach or liquid chlorine for shocking anyway because it doesn't wear out your salt cell as fast and it's more effective since the chlorine is added all at once instead of slowly rising. Your cell is creating exactly the same thing as liquid chlorine or bleach anyway.

If you did a stain treatment I assume you added metal sequestant to the water. If you did not add a double dose now or the stains will return. Normally, it's a good idea not to shock for 2 weeks after a stain treatment but you overdosed on the ascorbic acid and it's more important right now to get your chlorine demand in line. If the stains start to return just drop your pH to 7.0 and add more sequesterant!

For your 15000 gallon pool you need to add 4 gallons of Ultra bleach (6%) or 5 3/4 gallons of regular bleach (5.25%) or 2 gallons and 1.5 qts. of liquid chlorine (12.5)%. This is the right amount to raise your pool 20 ppm. It will take a lot of bleach and a bit of time to destroy all the excess ascorbic acid in your pool! Keep at it. Test your water 2 or three times a day and add more bleach to maintain the FC at 20 ppm. (with your taylor kit you can use the dilution method to test higher FC and TC levels. It's on the lid of your kit at the bottom of the chlorine test section. Use the 1.8 ml dilution ) You will have a LOT of combined clorine at first, just keep tabs on the FC. Test the pool in the evening after adding the chlorine and again in the morning and when the FC is holding overnight (no more than a 1 or 2 ppm drop) , there is no Combined Chlorine, and the pool is clear (or possibly milky looking from dead algae). you can start to let your clorine levels drop to normal. It might take a week for your filter to clear all the dead algae. Once the CYA you added has had a week to dissolve it's ok to start cleaning the filter again unless the pressure has risen too high. Then clean it and worry about the CYA after you finish. I suspect that enough of the CYA will dissolve before you need to clean the filter that it will get you into the correct range. Don't worry about your pH or other water parameter right now. Just kill the algae and satisfy the chlorine demand! Once you have finsihed and your chlorine levels are back to normal then you can procede to fine tune your other water parameters! If there is any metal staining in the filter you can remove it by using an acid filter cleaner if you have a sand filter, or (if you have a cartridge filter) by soaking the filter overnight in a solution of 1 cup automatic dishwasher detergent powder such as Cascase or Electorsol to every 5 cups water, rinsing, and then soaking the cart for about 20-30 minutes in a solution of 1 part muriatic acid to every 20 parts water and rinse again. DO NOT acid wash a cart before soaking in a degreaser (the automatic dishwasher degergent powder) because you will ruin it! The oils and organics will harden into a cement like mass! If you have a DE filter just break the filter down and clean it and recharge with DE.

Hope this helps!

Forgot one thing. You are going to need the biggest bottle of POP (Pool Owner Patinece) you can find. Apply it liberally to yourself several times a day!

[itabb]

This is a bit different than what I was advised at the pool store.

Stats from the store (he tested twice):

FC 1.5

TA 110

PH 7.4

CYA 45

CA 360

salt 2500

I was advised to use powerder shock, 3lbs and add 2 bags of salt.

On Saturday, add CYA (4 lbs) and phos free.

When I added Ascorbic acid, I also added a 32oz bottle of metal free. I purchased another bottle for maintenence from the cell for later.

Let me know what you think of this. It sounds to me that liquid bleach might be better and I should get some polyquat 60.

Just bought a new test kit as well. Let me know what you think.

[waterbear]

FYI, I also work in a pool and spa supply store. I would be more interested in your tests results from your taylor kit (I assume it's the K-2005?) since I DO know how many pool stores test and how inexerpienced many of the testers are! Is your store using strips with or without a strip reader, liqiud reagent tests, or powdered reagetns in vials that might or might not be read with a colormeter? If it is the first forget their results and trust your own. If either of the second your results should be pretty close to theirs if they are doing the tests correctly, which is not always the case!

Based on their test results your CYA is too low for a SWG. Goldline recommends 60-80 ppm and this level works very well. I have my own pool (Goldline Aqualogic PS-8) at 70 ppm. 2 40 lb bags of salt would get you to just over 3100 ppm which is still a bit low. It's bette to run the salt slightly higher than lower. It extends cell life. I would put in 2 1/2 40 lb bags! this will bring you to about 3300 ppm. This is all based on your 15000 gallonage being accurate! As far as the salt goes you DO NOT NEED TO BUY POOL SALT!. Get water softener solar salt or pellets that is at least 99.5% pure and does not have any additives to clean the softener tank or remove iron. It will cost about half as much as pool salt and is not any different except for the size of the crystals. (If you don't believe me just look in your goldline manual or check their website!)

I am sure they are recommending that you use powdered shock. It is much higher proft than liquid chlorine! (Do they even sell liquid? Many pool stores don't!) With your Calcium at 360 ppm I would be hesitant to use cal hypo (the most common form of powdered shock) since it will raise your calcium levels and they are arready at the high end of what is acceptable for a SWG. If they get much higher you will have a major problem with scale fouling your salt cell and will be cleaning it often! If they are recommending Dichlor you want to run and not walk from them. Dichlor adds a LOT of CYA with every use. For every 1 ppm FC it adds it will also add .9 ppm CYA! If they are suggesting lithium hypochorite, well there is nothing wrong with this except for the price. it is THE most EXPENSIVE form of chlorine that you can use and the only advantage it has over liquid or bleach is that it is a fast dissolving powder that is a bit more convenient becuase it's a powder.

YOU DON"T NEED PHOSFREE!!!!!!!! Even if your orthophosphate levels are over 3000ppb it is unlikely that it will lead to algae blooms if you maintain a proper FC in the 3-5 ppm range! Lanthemum based phosphate removers do have a place but are not needed that often!!!!!!!!!(this is a subject for another thread). Sounds like you have been 'pool stored' into buying stuff you really don't need!

MetalFree is an EDTA based seqesterant. I have found that they don't work as well as the HEDP based ones like Jack's Magic or Proteam's Metal Magic. I find that I have to dose them a bit more often then what they recommend to keep the stains away while the HEDP based ones I can often dose once a month and they still work. Don't believe the hype about about phosphates from metal sequesterants. I have many pools with orthophosphates that are considered too high (My own pool has orthophophate readings above 3000 ppb!) and none of them have turned green because of it! There are some instances where a phosphate remover can be of value but they are not needed in the vast majority of pools!

I have already told you what I think in the previous post. Until you both oxidize the excess ascorbic acid and kill the algae you will not be able to hold chlorine in your pool! Also, your CYA is low for a SWG. Get it up to arond 70 ppm or 80 ppm! You are not going to fix this problem overnight but it is fixable. I can tell you exactly what caused it. You overdosed on the stain treatment (I assume the ascorbic acid you used was StainFree since you also bought Metal Free, if your pool is really only 15k then you only needed 24 ox of MetalFree and not the whole quart! Overdosing in this case is not that critical and sometimes sequesterants need to be overdosed by 2 or 3 times if metal levels are high or staining is severe. You can buy ascorbic acid powder over the net for a LOT less money than the StainFree costs next time you need it! You don't need food grade for the pool and I have seen it go for about $10/lb !).

Hope this info is helpful to you. I was watching this thread for a while but until you said you had put 4 lbs of ascorbic acid into a 15K pool I was as puzzled as chemgeek as to why your FC would not hold!

[itabb]

The salt is $9 per 40lbs. I recall morton water softener salt at Home Depot used to be around $5 a bag, assuming it is 99.5% pure. The shock is Cal Hypo, so I can't use that. It was $4 per lb. I'll get a case of ultra clorox at BJs tonight. I think the pool store guy told me he prefers Proteam's Metal Magic, but it is not phophate free. The kit is bought is the K-2005 ($46).

So my plan is:

tonight (thurs):

1. Test FC, TC, PH, ALK, CA, and CYA

2. add 100lbs of salt (directly into the deep end)

3. add 3lbs of CYA (mixed in water and poured into the skimmer)

4. add polyquat 60 @ 16oz per 10k gals for 24oz. total

Run filter 24 hours - run aquarite 100% - cover pool (automatic coverstar cover) - waterfalls off

Tomorrow night (fri)

1. Test FC, TC, PH

2. Add 4 gal (5.3 96oz bottles) of Clorox Ultra to the skimmer . . . slowly

Run filter 24 hours - run aquarite 100% - cover pool (automatic coverstar cover) - waterfalls off

Sat AM:

1. Test FC, TC, PH

2. Adjust PH

3. Add Chlorine to bring to 20 FC

repeat 2x per day until FC holds over 12 hours

Sun PM:

1. Test FC, TC, PH, ALK, CA, and CYA

2. Adjust CYA to 80ppm if necessary

After FC holds at 20ppm over 12 hours, open cover, balance PH, turn off aquarite, run filter on normal schedule and allow FC to drop to 4ppm.

Does this sound right to you?

[waterbear]

The salt is $9 per 40lbs. I recall morton water softener salt at Home Depot used to be around $5 a bag, assuming it is 99.5% pure.

The solar salt is 99.5%, the pellets are 99.8%. solar will dissovle faster

The shock is Cal Hypo, so I can't use that. It was $4 per lb. I'll get a case of ultra clorox at BJs tonight. I think the pool store guy told me he prefers Proteam's Metal Magic, but it is not phophate free.

Like I said phosphates are a non issue! Metal Magic is actually my first choice for sequesterants but there are many good ones out there.

The kit is bought is the K-2005 ($46).

You will have to do dilutions to test for the high clorine levels. get a jug of distilled water from the grocery and follow the dilution directions on the lid of your kit at the bottom of the chlorine (yellow) section.

So my plan is:

tonight (thurs):

1. Test FC, TC, PH, ALK, CA, and CYA

2. add 100lbs of salt (directly into the deep end)

Just dump it in the pool and brush it. It will dissovle pretty fast. It might trigger a high salt warning in the SWG. Just reset the genterator and you will be fine or shut it off until the salt is all dissolved--about 24 hours with the pump running.

3. add 3lbs of CYA (mixed in water and poured into the skimmer)

If your pool is 15k and your cya is between 45-50 this should get you where you need to be

4. add polyquat 60 @ 16oz per 10k gals for 24oz. total

Run filter 24 hours - run aquarite 100% - cover pool (automatic coverstar cover) - waterfalls off

leave the pool uncovered and add your bleach after about 12 hours of filtering. this will give the polyquat 60 time to work. no reason to try and shock with the SWG. It won't be able to keep up with the chlorine demand and you will just raise your CC levels and destroy the polyquat you just put in! Either turn off the SWG or run it at it's normal setting. Test and add bleach 2 or 3 times a day to maintain the FC at 20 ppm.

Tomorrow night (fri)

1. Test FC, TC, PH

don't worry about pH now....just your chlorine levels!

2. Add 4 gal (5.3 96oz bottles) of Clorox Ultra to the skimmer . . . slowly

see above

Run filter 24 hours - run aquarite 100% - cover pool (automatic coverstar cover) - waterfalls off

see above, you are making this harder than it really is. all you need to worry about for now is your FC levels and keeping them at 20 ppm by adding bleach or liquid chlorine until your FC is holding overnight and there is no CC!

Sat AM:

1. Test FC, TC, PH

2. Adjust PH

3. Add Chlorine to bring to 20 FC

do NOT try and adjust pH until FC levels are lower than 20 ppm. Don't worry about that now at all!

repeat 2x per day until FC holds over 12 hours

Until it holds overnight when you know chlorine loss is NOT from sulight. a minimum would be 2 times a day. The idea is to keep your chlorine as constant as possible at 20 ppm. It will be consumed very quickly by the ascorbic acid and the algae so put some in, test a few hours later, and add more as needed. If your pool store sells 12.5% liquid dosing is easy. every pint will raise your pool approx. 1 ppm (not exact but close enough for government work!)

Sun PM:

1. Test FC, TC, PH, ALK, CA, and CYA

Until your FC is holding and your chlorine levels drop do not worry about testing for anything else! CYA will take a week to fully dissolve so don't even bother testing for it until a week has passed since you added it!

2. Adjust CYA to 80ppm if necessary

You should do this immediately on the first day you start this!

After FC holds at 20ppm over 12 hours, open cover, balance PH, turn off aquarite, run filter on normal schedule and allow FC to drop to 4ppm.

Once your FC is holding overnight and there is no CC then stop adding liquid and let the chlorine levels drop. Keep the pool uncovered the whole time because part of what destroys the CC is the UV in sunlight and the gassing off of some of the TMHs that form. Once you need to drop the FC you can turn on your aeration (waterfall). It will help.

Does this sound right to you?

What I would do is put in the salt, CYA, and the polyquat right away. run pump for 12 hours and then start hammering away at it with the liquid chlorine. test and add chlorine as many times a day as you possibly can to keep the chlorine levels from yo-yoing up and down, which they will at first! You will see your CC go high and then start to come down as the FC begins to hold. either turn off the SWG or leave it at it's normal setting. If you want to shorten cell life by running it in boost mode (100%) you can, it might help keep the FC levels up but really isn't necessary unless you really can't be there to test and add chlorine.

Once you have taken care of the chlorine demand, your chlorine levels have dropped below 10 ppm and you have no CC your can then test your other water parameters. If any staining has reappeared drop your pH to 7.0 with muriatic acid and add Metal Magic (treatment dose, not maintenance dose) and filter for 24 hours....pool might cloud but it will clear and the stains should diminish.

[itabb]

I did the tests myself with my new test kit. The store guy assumed that my FC and TC would always be the same because it is a salt pool. Anyway, my results are different, and rather interesting.

Thurs May 31 8pm

FC 0.5

TC 2

PH 7.2 (It went down???)

TA 60 (store said 110, 70 is what I got earlier).

CA 380 (38 drops!!!)

CYA 35 (best I can tell when the black dot dissappears, and I have good vision. Suppose it could be 40, but I could still just make out the black dot, or I imagined I could. At 38-35, I definately couldn't see it.)

SI -.04 (using Taylor Chart)

Added 100 lbs of salt (best guess on the half bag + or - 10 lbs, I suppose)

Salt reading 3100 (-0 instant - not sure what this means)

Added 2 lbs of CYA, adding 2 more lbs in the morning.

Added 24 oz of polyquat 60, drizzled around the pool.

Pool uncovered. Waterfalls off. Turned off the SWG and running pump only. I don't have bleach yet, so I'll have to chlorinate in 24 hours. Do I have to use Clorox or can I use Wal-Mart brand? It says no phosphates and 6% just like Clorox. Also, do I add all 4 gallons of bleach at once or over several hours or several days? I can't seem to find solar salt. I guess Georgia water is already soft.

[chem geek]

You can use Wal-Mart brand so long as it is unscented (it sounds like that's the case and it's just Wal-Mart's version of Clorox Regular 6% bleach). You add the bleach to get the FC level to 20 ppm and add more bleach later after the FC drops -- you are going to need a lot more than the 4 gallons. You initially add the 4 gallons at one time, but slowly over a return arm outstretched with the pump running so that the chorine flows into the water flow from the return. Then as the FC drops (consuming the algae and perhaps more ascorbic acid if there's any left), you will need to add more chlorine to maintain the FC at 20 ppm so will need to check it several times a day if possible (at least check it morning, early evening, late evening). I can't say how much total chlorine you will be needing, but buying 8 gallons would not be too little. Until the algae is gone, the SWG is going to have a hard time keeping up, though with the extra salt it will be able to provide some chlorine (and will kill algae in water flowing through the cell).

Sorry I didn't catch your Ascorbic Acid situation since that explained the chlorine consumption. Waterbear's got you on the right track.

[waterbear]

Most hardware stores and some supemartkets carry water softener salt. It comes in pellets and in crystal form. The crystal form is either solar or rock. You don't want rock becuase it has too many inmpurities. Both Morton and Diamond Crystal have solar salt. The pellets are fine but the solar will dissolve faster.

[itabb]

Friday, Jun 1 2007

7:30am

FC <0.5

TC 1.0

PH 7.2 (Finally Stable!!!)

Salt 3100 (-0) on aquarite.

Added 2 lbs of CYA through the skimmer.

Pool is clear. I'll come home for lunch with armfulls of bleach.

The pool store guy says that because I have a salt system, my TC = FC. This is clearly not the case. Why would he say that?

I read what you posted about cleaning the filter (granted, this is in the distant future, at this point). I have cartridge filters. The thin one is half as tall as me. The bigger one is 3 times as round as me. How do I soak that in Cascade? I don't have a container big enough to immerse the filters. I have trouble with just my spa filter. If I put it in the sink, I use half a bottle of cartridge cleaner. If I put it in a bucket, I can only clean half at a time. Also, how is using pool store cartridge cleaner different, better, and worse than using Cascade and Muratic acid to clean the filters?

[waterbear]

Pool is clear. I'll come home for lunch with armfulls of bleach

In your pic the pool is green and not clear. Did the polyquat kill all the algae already? If it did the pool should look milky. Your desriptions can be a bit confusing at times.

The pool store guy says that because I have a salt system, my TC = FC. This is clearly not the case. Why would he say that?

Ingnorance and not really understanding how a SWG works. He is partially right. Most pools with SWGs very rarely exhibit any CC but it can happen and when it does you need to shock just like with any other pool that uses chlorine. The best way to schock is with bleach because that way the chlorine level is quickly raised instead of over a 24 hour period. This creates less undesireable byproducts than when the clorone level slowly rises. Also, it does not wear out your salt cell as quickly (and they are EXPENSIVE to replace!)

Educate your pool store guy. Tell him that while it is true that pools with SWGs rarely need shocking it can happen that they do because they are simply being chlorinated with sodium hypochlorite, which is liquid chlorine or bleach! Tell him this is why most SWGs have superchlornate or boost functions but it's better to shock with liquid chlorine or bleach to preserve cell life. Do this nicely and he might offer you a job! (How do you think I got started in this business! ) (just joking! your pool has been intense....gotta lighten up a bit!)

I read what you posted about cleaning the filter (granted, this is in the distant future, at this point). I have cartridge filters. The thin one is half as tall as me. The bigger one is 3 times as round as me. How do I soak that in Cascade? I don't have a container big enough to immerse the filters.

Sounds like you have a StaRite System 2 or System 3 modular media system. According to Starite you hose them off and soak them when needed or use a propriatary cleaner just like with any other cartridge! If you have a system 3 you will need help lifting the larger cart out since it's very heavy when wet. As far as finding something to soak it in you need to be creative. My Pentiar Clean and Cleanr 150 has a cart that is over 4 ft tall but I was able to find a rubbermaid storage bin that it will lay in sideways and I use that for soaking. If you can only find a container big enough to soak half the filter at at time soak one half overnight then turn it over and soak the other half. It will take you twice as long to soak this way but you can get the job done. It's also a good idea to have a second cart or set of carts and swap them each time you clean. (With the StaRites this is an EXPENSIVE proposition!)

I have trouble with just my spa filter. If I put it in the sink, I use half a bottle of cartridge cleaner. If I put it in a bucket, I can only clean half at a time. Also, how is using pool store cartridge cleaner different, better, and worse than using Cascade and Muratic acid to clean the filters?

Proprietary cleaners are much more expensive to use (most carts will requires several bottles unless you have a REALLY small cart or a spa cart) and not really any more effective than using cascade for degreasing and then following it with a dilute muriatic acid soak if there is scale present. Their advantage is that they can often do this two step process in one step! You still need to soak the cart if it is really dirty!