Brulan1 Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Does anyone have R-value numbers on different manufactured tubs? I would really appreciate it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Does anyone have R-value numbers on different manufactured tubs? I would really appreciate it Would you like the R-Value on the tubs when the pumps are running or just the insulating value of so many inches of insulation. There's alot of variables at work here including what density of foam and if there's multiple densitys, what type of perimeter insulation or what combination of perimeter insulations and what thickness. What part of the tub the R-Factor is measured at, for instance there will be a lower r-factor at the upper lip or around a door or vent opening if it is not sealed. To many variables to try and calculate an overall r-factor for a particular brand. Alot of tubs come with a winter kit which insulated an equipment area. This would change the r-factor of that area. Vents that can be closed, like I said to many things to figure into an overall r-factor. I know the good Doc on another web board can tell us the r-factor of several different kinds of foams and thicknesses very easiely because he does this for his covers. Any insulation contractor can tell me the r-factor of a particular type of insulation. Do you have a particular type of insulation in mind that you would like information on, then I can tell you what r-factor for each inch. Looks like you have alot of time on your hands why don't you just look into it yourself. Here's an example for you, if 1 inch of insulation has an r-factor of 3 then 3 inches of insulation will have an r-factor of 9 and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brulan1 Posted February 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Would you like the R-Value on the tubs when the pumps are running or just the insulating value of so many inches of insulation. There's alot of variables at work here including what density of foam and if there's multiple densitys, what type of perimeter insulation or what combination of perimeter insulations and what thickness. What part of the tub the R-Factor is measured at, for instance there will be a lower r-factor at the upper lip or around a door or vent opening if it is not sealed. To many variables to try and calculate an overall r-factor for a particular brand. Alot of tubs come with a winter kit which insulated an equipment area. This would change the r-factor of that area. Vents that can be closed, like I said to many things to figure into an overall r-factor. I know the good Doc on another web board can tell us the r-factor of several different kinds of foams and thicknesses very easiely because he does this for his covers. Any insulation contractor can tell me the r-factor of a particular type of insulation. Do you have a particular type of insulation in mind that you would like information on, then I can tell you what r-factor for each inch. Looks like you have alot of time on your hands why don't you just look into it yourself. Here's an example for you, if 1 inch of insulation has an r-factor of 3 then 3 inches of insulation will have an r-factor of 9 and so on. But as tom was explaining to me over a certain amount of foam it has minimal effect. My R-value is 18 and the cover is 14. Artic spas has 22 and I am not sure about the cover. Than I began to say that the cost between the two are minimal but the repaires in the future are more money when you have to dig through all that foam. To me having the 1" foam against the wall with a ABS pan or a forever floor makes more sense than having all that foam. I dont know, all the spa's are nice and if you dont mind paying for service calls after a "non prorated" warranty than they are all nice. Efficiency is valuable to me and also accessablility also. When Colemans had foam we did 90percent more service calls than we have been for the last 4 years. People seem to be happier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 But as tom was explaining to me over a certain amount of foam it has minimal effect. My R-value is 18 and the cover is 14. Artic spas has 22 and I am not sure about the cover. Than I began to say that the cost between the two are minimal but the repaires in the future are more money when you have to dig through all that foam. To me having the 1" foam against the wall with a ABS pan or a forever floor makes more sense than having all that foam. I dont know, all the spa's are nice and if you dont mind paying for service calls after a "non prorated" warranty than they are all nice. Efficiency is valuable to me and also accessablility also. When Colemans had foam we did 90percent more service calls than we have been for the last 4 years. People seem to be happier About 98 percent of my service calls are in the equipment area. Seems moot, the insulation type. About 98 percent of my service calls are in the equipment area. Seems moot, the insulation type. Oh forgot to mention, so because Tom said so I should only put 3 inches of foam in the walls of my house even though there's 6 inches of space because the other 3 inches won't make much difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brulan1 Posted February 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 About 98 percent of my service calls are in the equipment area. Seems moot, the insulation type. Thats another problem. The cold air enters into the component area when there is full foam. Since foam takes up alot more area, that means that dead air space allows for more heat to be around the equipment. Are 98Percent of the tubs you service full foam? see what I mean Roger that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Thats another problem. The cold air enters into the component area when there is full foam. Are 98Percent of the tubs you service full foam? see what I mean Roger that. No it's about 60-40 FF over TP....no I don't see what you mean you said something to the effect that FF was harder to service, yes you are correct digging foam sucks but for a good service guy no biggy. But we very very seldom have to dig foam. Our work is in the equipment area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brulan1 Posted February 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 No it's about 60-40 FF over TP....no I don't see what you mean you said something to the effect that FF was harder to service, yes you are correct digging foam sucks but for a good service guy no biggy. But we very very seldom have to dig foam. Our work is in the equipment area. Full foam is the affect of your nonfunctionable equipment area. Can you see that? No big deal, and great that you do not have to dig as much but still who wants to spend all the time working on them? Unless of coarse that is what you do, just service them than more power to you Full foam is the affect of your nonfunctionable equipment area. Can you see that? No big deal, and great that you do not have to dig as much but still who wants to spend all the time working on them? Unless of coarse that is what you do, just service them than more power to you I recieved the formula for resistance and there is a point of diminishing returns. Up to a certain point having more foam has alot more of a minimal effect than say 1-2". Thankyou tom you have clarified everything for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Whad I been missing here? 2 pound polyureathane foamhas an R-Value at testing conditions of 6.8 to 7.14 per inch, as you lower density, without adding vapor or other barriers the density drops by 1/2 when you go to 1pound and by half again as you go to 1/2 pound and half again when you go to .25# Inversely as density goes up from 2# foam, R-value is lost but not in as predictable a curve. In other words 4 pound foam still has most of the r-value of 2# but 60# has no more r-value than a dense wood like walnut would have. As far as diminishing returns, this is true, but is also based on temperature differences. e.g. because a spa is much hotter than a home more insulation in the spa will have a greater "return on investment" than insulation in a home. There's a study that shows that 1" of sprayed poly foam will stop 70% of heat loss (based on ZERO air infiltration), 2" of sprayed poly foam will stop 90% of heat loss any 4" will stop 96%. Now....... the greatest cause of heat loss is air infiltration, and full foam will be closer to eliminating that than non-full foam (equipment compartment excluded). Before you think, "WOW, with 2" of insulation I only lose 10% of the heat"......... this is 10% of what?? If you remove ALL the insulation form your spa could it run $1000 a month to heat? 10% of this is an expensive spa to run. by the way, I personally serviced spas for 15 years......... I think I had 2 that FF spas that leaked from the foam. Both I recall fixing in under 2 hours......... And I'm pretty sure 1 spa was over 15 years old. Lots of plumbing leaks from unsupported plumbing and the equipment area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Kahuna Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Seems to me this debate went on when this board first started up and the same outcome is happening. FF and TP each have advantages and disadvantages. A good TP and a good FF will typically cost about the same to run (maybe $1/mnth difference, is it really worth the argument?). So why bother arguing to something that comes down to the overall quality of the tub? A good manufacturer can make a TP that works well with no problems, but on the other hand a crappy manufacturer can make a TP that leaks air, has crappy plumping, etc and the same goes for FF manufacturers. Why worry so much about the type of insulation when what to worry about is going with a stand up manufacturer who builds quality tubs, uses quality insulation (regardless of how it's filled), quality acrylics, jets, pumps, electronics . . . the list goes on and on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Seems to me this debate went on when this board first started up and the same outcome is happening. FF and TP each have advantages and disadvantages. Seems Brulan is new hear and is going to try and convince us once again that his (or her) brand is the best in the world and TP is so so much better than FF we should all sell our tubs and go see him (or her) This gets tiring and I am glad to see someone who is adement about there product, but someone who can be convinced so easiely as brulan can be, that one method is so much better than the rest and anything else is a waste, is dense. I eat these kind of sales people for breakfast. I recieved the formula for resistance and there is a point of diminishing returns. Up to a certain point having more foam has alot more of a minimal effect than say 1-2". Thankyou tom you have clarified everything for me There's no disputing this brulan it's right there on paper but as Doc stateted, that we will probably not be able to push in your thick skull, there are several factors that make 6-8 even 10-12 inches of foam better than 1-2 at stopping heat loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brulan1 Posted February 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 There's no disputing this brulan it's right there on paper but as Doc stateted, that we will probably not be able to push in your thick skull, there are several factors that make 6-8 even 10-12 inches of foam better than 1-2 at stopping heat loss. Now now, temper temper. I have alot of learning to do in my life, and people like you for brunch. Have to love an honest sales person. No hating on me player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 Now now, temper temper. I have alot of learning to do in my life, This has become extremly obvious. But then again some people never learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brulan1 Posted February 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 This has become extremly obvious. But then again some people never learn. Good observation captin obvious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBK Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Good observation captin obvious This forum is to educate consumers not reply to as many topics as you can. Make it count. TBK GOD BLESS Happy Hunting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Well, I see we're into the debate of full foam vs not once again. Folks reading all of the comments said from the "heated waters" of our industry grain of salt! My personal belief is both work... however I have a tendancy to lean a bit more toward the insulation that isn't fully foamed in. I just know for myself that if the difference in operating costs are so minimal between the two according to many votes in here... the varying factor for me is access and what I would be responsible for in the future as far as service and fixing it if need be. I always like to think of the possible work I may need to do in the future to avoid having to do any hard work... lazy, I know! I'm certainly not going to "bash" anyone for making their tub to the best of their abilities and I like to think that most companies are trying to do their best. My opinion... after warranties have worn out and the care and maintenance is more up to me or to pay someone to do it, it seems to make more sense (for ME) to have a spa that I could easily get to everything and not dig through foam (which would be moldy, mildewy, or possibly full of yuckys in this area NW) or pay someone to dig through stuff which (even with a skilled technician- can take some time). It just seems easier (for me) to simply take off the side panel and have open access to everything with no mold (I'm severely allergic to mold and mildew) if there was ever a leak or something that needed to be fixed. Of course many spas are made both ways and I agree that the company that stands behind their product is VERY important when facing this dilima. And I'm sure there are people that wouldn't mind the digging or paying someone to do that. Knowing that most peopel in this forum are "full foamers"... DON'T SHOOT!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Kahuna Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Knowing that most peopel in this forum are "full foamers"... DON'T SHOOT!!!! Ready . . . . Aim . . . . . LOL I'm in agreement with Amanda, but everyone is entitled to thier own opinion, and there is more than enough of that for both sides in this forum. Thankfully, like Amanda and Myself, the "full foamers" don't push thier ideas on others, just provide thier own input and let the readers decide. Good job on being a moderator, BTW, Amanda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Ready . . . . Aim . . . . . LOL I'm in agreement with Amanda, but everyone is entitled to thier own opinion, and there is more than enough of that for both sides in this forum. Thankfully, like Amanda and Myself, the "full foamers" don't push thier ideas on others, just provide thier own input and let the readers decide. Good job on being a moderator, BTW, Amanda. So what do you guys consider me. I'm not a big fan of Arctic (as non FF as it gets) And I am not a fan of HS (as FF as it gets) Am I a FFer or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brulan1 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 So what do you guys consider me. I'm not a big fan of Arctic (as non FF as it gets) And I am not a fan of HS (as FF as it gets) Am I a FFer or not? You are greyt!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Ready . . . . Aim . . . . . LOL I'm in agreement with Amanda, but everyone is entitled to thier own opinion, and there is more than enough of that for both sides in this forum. Thankfully, like Amanda and Myself, the "full foamers" don't push thier ideas on others, just provide thier own input and let the readers decide. Good job on being a moderator, BTW, Amanda. Thanks Kahuna! So what do you guys consider me. I'm not a big fan of Arctic (as non FF as it gets) And I am not a fan of HS (as FF as it gets) Am I a FFer or not? So what type of insulation do you prefer? There is full foam, partially foamed, foamed on the outer wall, foamed on the floor, non-spray styrene foam, reflective thermal barrier on the sides and the bottom... Maybe your somewhere in between... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brulan1 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 So what type of insulation do you prefer? There is full foam, partially foamed, foamed on the outer wall, foamed on the floor, non-spray styrene foam, reflective thermal barrier on the sides and the bottom... Maybe your somewhere in between... Tuna foam, cocktail foam, foam scampi, foam on the barbi, barbQ foam, coconut foam, pineapple foam, hell we even have mangarine foam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 So what type of insulation do you prefer? There is full foam, partially foamed, foamed on the outer wall, foamed on the floor, non-spray styrene foam, reflective thermal barrier on the sides and the bottom... Maybe your somewhere in between... You are correct I prefer a system that has sprayed on foam on the shell, enough to hold the plumbing secure 2 inches at it's thinest point on the upper rim and up to 8-10 inches in some other spots on the 3 sides that hold no equipment. This foam holds in as much heat as possible during non run times (16-20 hrs) of every day or when its very very cold out and the motor heat can not keep up. I also like a reflectix type of R12 or above for the side walls but it has to be installed right so the seams are tapped and the access panel is sealed completely from the elements. The venting system for hot summer days it a damper that opens when the cooling fan kicks on and seals tight when the air temp inside the cabinet is below the manufacturers recommended maximum motor temp, thermostaticly controlled. The foam on the equipment side is 2-3 inches only allowing for heat transfer into the foam and out of the foam during non run times to help maintain plumbing dead water temp. This combination of the 2 styles or methods of insulation to me is the best of both worlds. Plus a cover upgrade is the best more effiecent way to improve any insulation skeem so I recomend a 5-4 taper minumum and a 6-5 for those in extreme climates.....like here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brulan1 Posted February 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 You are correct I prefer a system that has sprayed on foam on the shell, enough to hold the plumbing secure 2 inches at it's thinest point on the upper rim and up to 8-10 inches in some other spots on the 3 sides that hold no equipment. This foam holds in as much heat as possible during non run times (16-20 hrs) of every day or when its very very cold out and the motor heat can not keep up. I also like a reflectix type of R12 or above for the side walls but it has to be installed right so the seams are tapped and the access panel is sealed completely from the elements. The venting system for hot summer days it a damper that opens when the cooling fan kicks on and seals tight when the air temp inside the cabinet is below the manufacturers recommended maximum motor temp, thermostaticly controlled. The foam on the equipment side is 2-3 inches only allowing for heat transfer into the foam and out of the foam during non run times to help maintain plumbing dead water temp. This combination of the 2 styles or methods of insulation to me is the best of both worlds. Plus a cover upgrade is the best more effiecent way to improve any insulation skeem so I recomend a 5-4 taper minumum and a 6-5 for those in extreme climates.....like here. If heat rises and components are on the floor, from my observations the components are still exposed to the freezing cold air. Sounds very professional though. You have me sold though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 If heat rises and components are on the floor, from my observations the components are still exposed to the freezing cold air. Sounds very professional though. You have me sold though. You are correct Brulan the coldest part of inside the cabinet is close to the floor. And during run times this is not a problem as there is enough warmth generated from the motor to keep this area warm. Notice I said warmth not heat because we are talking the most fridgid days here when the cold permiats the R12 on the side walls and the delta T is very high so heat loss is at it's maximum. Thats why venting a TP style tub on the bottom is a bad idea but makes the most sence, cold air in to cool and then up and out it goes. I duct the cooling air in from up above down to the motors. But back to this cool by the bottom, I have some great ideas regarding how to handle this dilema, heres one for you. With out a 24 hour circ pump to create warmth I have installed and am currently recording inside cabinet temps and power usage using a simple well positioned 75 watt light buld that comes on after a filter cycle and goes off during a filter cycle, this in combination with a board modification to allow a larger temperature drop (overiding freeze protection set points) between filter cycles to reduce reheating cycles between filter cycles I think will save me in preliminary numbers around 30-60 KWH per month. Now this may not seem like much (couple bucks) but in combination with several other things I am down from 25 to 35 bucks a month to 14 to 24 bucks a month so improvement has been made. Oh but I forgot to mention if I save an average of 5-10 bucks a month over stock that is 60-120 bucks a year and that's 600 to 1200 over the life of the spa. At 65 bucks an hour plus material I am going in the hole very fast on these modifications but it is a fun learning experience for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brulan1 Posted February 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 You are correct Brulan the coldest part of inside the cabinet is close to the floor. And during run times this is not a problem as there is enough warmth generated from the motor to keep this area warm. Notice I said warmth not heat because we are talking the most fridgid days here when the cold permiats the R12 on the side walls and the delta T is very high so heat loss is at it's maximum. Thats why venting a TP style tub on the bottom is a bad idea but makes the most sence, cold air in to cool and then up and out it goes. I duct the cooling air in from up above down to the motors. But back to this cool by the bottom, I have some great ideas regarding how to handle this dilema, heres one for you. With out a 24 hour circ pump to create warmth I have installed and am currently recording inside cabinet temps and power usage using a simple well positioned 75 watt light buld that comes on after a filter cycle and goes off during a filter cycle, this in combination with a board modification to allow a larger temperature drop (overiding freeze protection set points) between filter cycles to reduce reheating cycles between filter cycles I think will save me in preliminary numbers around 30-60 KWH per month. Now this may not seem like much (couple bucks) but in combination with several other things I am down from 25 to 35 bucks a month to 14 to 24 bucks a month so improvement has been made. Oh but I forgot to mention if I save an average of 5-10 bucks a month over stock that is 60-120 bucks a year and that's 600 to 1200 over the life of the spa. At 65 bucks an hour plus material I am going in the hole very fast on these modifications but it is a fun learning experience for me. That does make alot of sense, right ON!!! That is really cool to know. I remember R-rating on the walls is 13 but what about the cover rating on your spa's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 That does make alot of sense, right ON!!! That is really cool to know. I remember R-rating on the walls is 13 but what about the cover rating on your spa's? I don't sell spa's, I have purchased a Great Lakes because the insulation skeem from the factory matched what I wanted to make my modifications. I took a brand new spa and voided the warranty the first day I owned it by ripping it apart and modifying it. It is 5 years old and has the original 4-3 tapered cover. We can ask the Doc about the R-Factor on a 4-3 cover but I will assume around r20? Doc? Foam density 2 lb. 1.5 lb. loads of variables Mine is a 1.5 lb. foam filled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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