Help: Can’t maintain Bromine Levels

[CalebM12]

New hot tub owner here.  It is a 400 gallon island spa.   I cannot since receiving it a month ago maintain a constant bromine level for sanitation.   
I have balance the hardness, ph, phosphates, alkalinity of the water to have each in range.  It’s city water.   I have added bromide sulfate to create a reserve, and I have shocked the tub with non chloride shock.  I also have the frog serene floating bromine system.  
The typical scenario is this:

1. Shock the tub.  I am using Leslie Non chlorine shock.  I run the jets during this process.

2. Bromine levels go high on my test strip.  
3. Wait 8 hours and someone uses the tub in evening

4. next morning no bromine registering on test strip.

if we use the tub daily I am literally shocking the tub daily.   And having to add reserve 2x a week.  This seems a bit excessive.  If we don’t use the tub the bromine might last 36-48 hours.

the tub sits covered.  Temp 100 degrees.  Scheduled to run/cycle for 2 hours in am and 2 in pm 
 

on a side note lately we have noticed a green tint to the water.  Not a “I don’t want to get in water geeen” but it’s def green tinted.   

 

[waterbear]

4 hours ago, CalebM12 said:

added bromide sulfate to create a reserve

Do you mean sodium bromide?

4 hours ago, CalebM12 said:

I have shocked the tub with non chloride shock

Do you mean non chlorine shock?

4 hours ago, CalebM12 said:

 I also have the frog serene floating bromine system.  

This is a low sanitizer/metal system of which I am not fond. It is too easy for the sanitizer to become depleted and the silver added is very slow acting and does not kill viruses. IMHO, this is a big part of your problem.

4 hours ago, CalebM12 said:

have balance the hardness, ph, phosphates, alkalinity of the water to have each in range

How are you testing and what are the actual numbers.  "In range" tell us nothing about the the actual chemistry of your water. FWIW, Phosphate are nothing to worry about. It's more of a money maker for supply stores and chemical manufacturers than anything else. Phosphates and nitrates are algae food but it is rare that phosphates are the limiting factor in algae growth. However, nitrates are normally not tested since there is no "magic chemical" that can be added to the water to remover nitrates like with phosphates. The only way to accomplish that is by replacing the water with nitrate free water. It is very rare that an algae bloom cannot be prevented or controlled by normal maintenance such as purging the tub on filling, maintaining proper levels of residual sanitizer (bromine or chlorine), maintaining 30 to 50 ppm borate (from a commercial borate product, borax, or boric acid), and/or addition of an algaecide.

4 hours ago, CalebM12 said:

1. Shock the tub.  I am using Leslie Non chlorine shock.  I run the jets during this process.

2. Bromine levels go high on my test strip.

Non chlorine shock (MPS) WILL test as total bromine on a strip or liquid test kit. It is a known interference. It is entirely possible that there is NO residual bromine in your tub, possibly because of biofilm or the bromine cartridge is not set properly, is empty, or is defective.

 

4 hours ago, CalebM12 said:

4. next morning no bromine registering on test strip.

Not uncommon with "mineral" systems.

4 hours ago, CalebM12 said:

if we use the tub daily I am literally shocking the tub daily.   And having to add reserve 2x a week.  This seems a bit excessive.  If we don’t use the tub the bromine might last 36-48 hours.

Once again, not uncommon with "mineral" systems.

4 hours ago, CalebM12 said:

Scheduled to run/cycle for 2 hours in am and 2 in pm 

You might want to increase run time.

4 hours ago, CalebM12 said:

on a side note lately we have noticed a green tint to the water.  Not a “I don’t want to get in water geeen” but it’s def green tinted.   

One of two things: very low pH causing elemental bromine to be released (VERY unlikely with a low bromine system) or there is something growing in the water (more likely if there has been no bromine and only MPS in the water, either because the small amount of bromine is being consumed quickly or non is getting into the water for the possible reasons I mentioned above.

Did you purge the spa to remove biofilms before filling?

Post a full set of test results, whether you purged or not, and then we will have a better idea of what's going on in your tub.

[CalebM12]

5 hours ago, waterbear said:

Do you mean sodium bromide?

Do you mean non chlorine shock?

This is a low sanitizer/metal system of which I am not fond. It is too easy for the sanitizer to become depleted and the silver added is very slow acting and does not kill viruses. IMHO, this is a big part of your problem.

How are you testing and what are the actual numbers.  "In range" tell us nothing about the the actual chemistry of your water. FWIW, Phosphate are nothing to worry about. It's more of a money maker for supply stores and chemical manufacturers than anything else. Phosphates and nitrates are algae food but it is rare that phosphates are the limiting factor in algae growth. However, nitrates are normally not tested since there is no "magic chemical" that can be added to the water to remover nitrates like with phosphates. The only way to accomplish that is by replacing the water with nitrate free water. It is very rare that an algae bloom cannot be prevented or controlled by normal maintenance such as purging the tub on filling, maintaining proper levels of residual sanitizer (bromine or chlorine), maintaining 30 to 50 ppm borate (from a commercial borate product, borax, or boric acid), and/or addition of an algaecide.

Non chlorine shock (MPS) WILL test as total bromine on a strip or liquid test kit. It is a known interference. It is entirely possible that there is NO residual bromine in your tub, possibly because of biofilm or the bromine cartridge is not set properly, is empty, or is defective.

 

Not uncommon with "mineral" systems.

Once again, not uncommon with "mineral" systems.

You might want to increase run time.

One of two things: very low pH causing elemental bromine to be released (VERY unlikely with a low bromine system) or there is something growing in the water (more likely if there has been no bromine and only MPS in the water, either because the small amount of bromine is being consumed quickly or non is getting into the water for the possible reasons I mentioned above.

Did you purge the spa to remove biofilms before filling?

Post a full set of test results, whether you purged or not, and then we will have a better idea of what's going on in your tub.

Thank you so much for responding.

the testing from today shows following:

Bromine: .75

pH: 7.9

alkalnity: 104

hardness: 178

iron: 0

coppee: .1

phosphate: 329

I used SpaChoice Sodium Bromide to build a bank and have been using Leslie’s fresh n clear, which is 38% potassium peroxymonosulfate for the shock.  It calls its self a chlorine free oxidizer.  

When I got the tub a month ago it was brand new.  I didn’t do anything besides install filters and fill it and balance it.  I didn’t know I was to purge it or how. 

Previous  to using the frog floater I did use a reg floater with Brominating Tablets in.  I placed 4 in the floater.  It made no difference hence the switch.   
 

[waterbear]

9 hours ago, CalebM12 said:

I didn’t do anything besides install filters and fill it and balance it.  I didn’t know I was to purge it or how. 

Manufacturers wet test for leaks so there is always water sitting in the plumbing of a new spa. With no sanitizer biofilms grow quickly and need to be killed or problems like yours occurs. Some people purge on each water change every 3 to 4 months also. I don't unless problems develop. Much depends on how well you keep your water chemistry in line, IMHO. If you are using a low chlorine or low bromine system such as the Frog or Nature 2 or testing with strips then purging on each water change very well might be needed.

My suggestion:

read this (and the other pinned posts in the hot tub water chemistry section):

https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/

then:

GET A GOOD TEST KIT. I cannot stress this enough! (Taylor Technologies K-2106 for bromine but the K-2006 chlorine kit can also be used with bromine by multiplying the free chlorine reading by 2.25 to get total bromine. The CYA test in the k-2006 is not used for bromine. All other tests between the two kits are identical. You can order the kit form Amazon or many online pool/spa suppliers unless you have a supply store locally that also sells to the trade. You do not want the K-2005 which uses a different sanitizer test. some people think it's too expensive but it's actually the least expensive GOOD test kit and cheaper than many that are not nearly as good. 

https://www.taylortechnologies.com/en/page/231/k-2006-complete-kit-with-fas-dpd

purge the spa with a product such as Ahhsome, refill, balance

dump the Frog and use 3 step bromine

Stop using MPS and use bleach for oxidizing the sodium bromide

Get a good bromine floater. Best one I've found is the Pentair/Rainbow 335. it's super adjustable and allows to to accurately maintain the desired bromine level.

 

 

9 hours ago, CalebM12 said:

the testing from today shows following:

Bromine: .75

pH: 7.9

alkalnity: 104

hardness: 178

iron: 0

coppee: .1

phosphate: 329

This looks like a dealer testing printout. Was it done by water being put on a disc or in a test tube with reagents and read in a machine (such as the LaMotte Spin Touch) or with strips put into a reader? Or was it done some other way? The only way numbers like that are obtained is with a colorimeter reading the samples. Some systems are decent, others are worthless. 

However, based on these results your bromine is in range for the Frog system (over .5 ppm), pH  is in range for good pH stability, alkalinity is way too high and should be between 50 to 70 ppm for best pH stability although many in the industry who really don't understand the chemistry of total alkalinity (if you read the pinned post in the swimming pool water chemistry section on lowering total alkalinity I wrote an easy to understand explanation) , hardness is in a good range for a spa, no metals present (except for the silver from the Frog)  or you have added a metal seqestrant, and phosphate is nothing to worry about.

It also illustrates the problem with low chlorine or low bromine "mineral" systems. Water parameters can be perfect (and according to King Technology (manufacturer of the Frog) yours are but you still have a problem with green water and very high sanitizer demand.

 

[CalebM12]

8 hours ago, waterbear said:

Manufacturers wet test for leaks so there is always water sitting in the plumbing of a new spa. With no sanitizer biofilms grow quickly and need to be killed or problems like yours occurs. Some people purge on each water change every 3 to 4 months also. I don't unless problems develop. Much depends on how well you keep your water chemistry in line, IMHO. If you are using a low chlorine or low bromine system such as the Frog or Nature 2 or testing with strips then purging on each water change very well might be needed.

My suggestion:

read this (and the other pinned posts in the hot tub water chemistry section):

https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/

then:

GET A GOOD TEST KIT. I cannot stress this enough! (Taylor Technologies K-2106 for bromine but the K-2006 chlorine kit can also be used with bromine by multiplying the free chlorine reading by 2.25 to get total bromine. The CYA test in the k-2006 is not used for bromine. All other tests between the two kits are identical. You can order the kit form Amazon or many online pool/spa suppliers unless you have a supply store locally that also sells to the trade. You do not want the K-2005 which uses a different sanitizer test. some people think it's too expensive but it's actually the least expensive GOOD test kit and cheaper than many that are not nearly as good. 

https://www.taylortechnologies.com/en/page/231/k-2006-complete-kit-with-fas-dpd

purge the spa with a product such as Ahhsome, refill, balance

dump the Frog and use 3 step bromine

Stop using MPS and use bleach for oxidizing the sodium bromide

Get a good bromine floater. Best one I've found is the Pentair/Rainbow 335. it's super adjustable and allows to to accurately maintain the desired bromine level.

 

 

This looks like a dealer testing printout. Was it done by water being put on a disc or in a test tube with reagents and read in a machine (such as the LaMotte Spin Touch) or with strips put into a reader? Or was it done some other way? The only way numbers like that are obtained is with a colorimeter reading the samples. Some systems are decent, others are worthless. 

However, based on these results your bromine is in range for the Frog system (over .5 ppm), pH  is in range for good pH stability, alkalinity is way too high and should be between 50 to 70 ppm for best pH stability although many in the industry who really don't understand the chemistry of total alkalinity (if you read the pinned post in the swimming pool water chemistry section on lowering total alkalinity I wrote an easy to understand explanation) , hardness is in a good range for a spa, no metals present (except for the silver from the Frog)  or you have added a metal seqestrant, and phosphate is nothing to worry about.

It also illustrates the problem with low chlorine or low bromine "mineral" systems. Water parameters can be perfect (and according to King Technology (manufacturer of the Frog) yours are but you still have a problem with green water and very high sanitizer demand.

 

Thank you.

The readings were done at Leslie’s. They put water in a disc.  
It sounds like what I need to do is a purge and then start over balancing with a good test kit?  Do you have advice guidance on how best to do the purge?

Also taking away to use bleach as the shock and to ditch the frog.
I will buy the floater you recommend.  Do you have a recommendation on what to put in floater….or all the same?

[waterbear]

43 minutes ago, CalebM12 said:

They put water in a disc.

LaMotte Spin Touch Waterlink system. I was certified by LaMotte on the Waterlink when I worked in the retail sector. It's a decent store testing system but store testing systems are designed to be fast and easy so even a part time high school kid with no understanding of water chemistry can test the water and the printouts (not just from the Waterlink but any computerized store testing system) are designed to maximize store profits by selling you as may chemicals as they can. Selling chems is how pool stores stay in business.  This is why I say test your own water. It's not hard and takes less time than taking a sample to the pool store.

 

47 minutes ago, CalebM12 said:

 Do you have advice guidance on how best to do the purge?

Follow the manufacturers directions for the product you get. Ahhsome is a very good product but there are others that work well also.

49 minutes ago, CalebM12 said:

Do you have a recommendation on what to put in floater….or all the same?

1" bromine tablets. Bromine tablets contain an organic form of bromine attached to a dimethylhydantion molecule  to help maintain the bromide reserve in the water and an organic chloirne also attached to dimethylhydantion to oxideize the bromide reserve into active bromine sanitizer, hypobromous acid. In fact, they contain more chlorine than bromine.

53 minutes ago, CalebM12 said:

Also taking away to use bleach as the shock

You can use any form of chlorine or MPS to shock (except trichlor)  but bleach is inexpensive and readily available and will cost less than dichlor or calcium hypochlorite and will have minimal impact on water balance and pH. MPS offers no advantage in a bromine spa but does have some use in indoor chlorine pool  and in spas that have persistent combined chlorine over 1 ppm. this

Shocking a bromine system means adding an oxidizer to convert the bromide reserve into bromine sanitizer. Shocking a chlorine system means adding more chlorine or MPS to burn off organics and chloramines (spent or "bad" chlorine) in the water. Bromamines, on the other hand, are effective sanitizers as opposed to chloramines, which is why we test for Total bromine (free bromine and bromainses) in a bromine system,  and Free chlorine (good chlorine) and shock when chloramines (combined chlorine) are .5 ppm or higher in a chlorine system.. MPS will not shorten the time before you can enter the tub (bromine should be 10 ppm or less to enter) which is the main advantage with adding it to a chlorine tub. Chlorine chemistry is different than bromine chemistry. The main reason to shock in a bromine tub is to born off organics  from bather load.

[CalebM12]

Really appreciate your time.  I will purge the tub this weekend and start over.  I have noticed scum attached to tub side on at water level.  
Will report back in a 2 weeks. 

[CalebM12]

Really appreciate your time.  I will purge the tub this weekend and start over.  I have noticed scum attached to tub side on at water level.  
Appears the Taylor k2106 is no longer sold in US.  
Will report back in a 2 weeks. 

[waterbear]

23 minutes ago, CalebM12 said:

Appears the Taylor k2106 is no longer sold in US.  

I just did a quick search and it's in stock at the first 4 online retailers that came up. It is also on the Taylor website. Amazon does not seem to have it in stock at the moment. If you want you can buy the K-2006 which is identical. It includes the test for CYA (chlorine stabilizer) which is not needed for bromine. To use it with bromine you would do the free chlorine test and multiply the results by 2.25 to get total bromine. Actually, you could just double the free chlorine results and you would be close enough, which is what Taylor and others do with their DPD test kits. All other tests in the two kits are identical. FWIW, the K-2006 usually costs less than the K-2106 even though the list price is a few dollars higher so see which is the better deal. 

[CalebM12]

On 10/15/2024 at 9:35 PM, waterbear said:

I just did a quick search and it's in stock at the first 4 online retailers that came up. It is also on the Taylor website. Amazon does not seem to have it in stock at the moment. If you want you can buy the K-2006 which is identical. It includes the test for CYA (chlorine stabilizer) which is not needed for bromine. To use it with bromine you would do the free chlorine test and multiply the results by 2.25 to get total bromine. Actually, you could just double the free chlorine results and you would be close enough, which is what Taylor and others do with their DPD test kits. All other tests in the two kits are identical. FWIW, the K-2006 usually costs less than the K-2106 even though the list price is a few dollars higher so see which is the better deal. 

So I was able to find the test kit and it arrived this weekend. 
I purged the tub using the ahhsome product.  There was some yellow gunk to clean out but not tons.  I cleaned out the entire tub and refilled.  Then went to balancing.  The clean water required a lower AK so followed the instructions.   I aerated the tub to bring the ph up.  Added dry acid to bring the ph down. Aerated the tub to bring ph back up and tested AK.  After everything I was able to get ph to 7.6, Ak 60, hardness to 200. I then created the bromine bank. Product said 1/2 oz per 100 gallons.  I have a 385 gallon tub so added 2 ounces.  I then added the bleach.  12 oz of bleach. Tested bromine and was at a 6.  I added the floater with 4 tabs where 1.5 tabs could be seen in the opening.

We used the tub last night. 
Early this am I went and tested.  
ph was 7, ak 7, bromine 0

i ran jets for 10 minutes. Ph was 8, ak 60, bromine 0

not sure what to do from here?!

Do I add more reserve, more shock, try to get the ph higher when jets aren’t running?

[waterbear]

Which kit did you get?

If the floater is not maintaining  bromine open it up more.

I am a bit concerned about the pH dropping so low. My suspicions is that it was way lower than 7.0 and running the jets for 10 minutes would not raise it to 8.0 in my experience. I suspect there might be some testing error going on.

Please post a full set of test results.

[CalebM12]

I got the Taylor 2106. 
Will Run all the tests tomorrow AM and posts the results. Thanks for your patience. 

[CalebM12]

Redid test this AM

PH a solid 7.6

Ak - drop number 4 turned it almost perfectly clear, drop 5 removed everything. So would say like 43

Bromine- drop 1 almost removed all color.  Like barely anything.  Drop 2 made it perfectly clear.  So 1.5?

 

[waterbear]

Do not interpolate. 

TA (total alkalinity) changes from green to red. With a 25 ml sample each drop represents 10 ppm TA and with a 10 ml sample wach drop represents 25 ppm TA. Add drops until adding one more drop doesn't produce any additional color change then don't count that last drop. IF you sanitizer level is very high then one of the indicators will bleach out and the color change will be from blue to pale lemon yellow. If it's colorless you have not reached the endpoint. It often helps to place the tube on a sheet of white paper and view it from the top as the yellow color is very faint. You could try adding 2 more drops of thiosulfate (4 total) to see if the normal color change from green to red will occur. If this test is bleaching out then youe bromine test is also suspect and might be bleaching out and your pH test can also be wrong. 

Did you test CH? 

 

[CalebM12]

That is helpful.  So I wrote up the AK test wrong.  The sample did change from green to red.  At 4 drops there was a lack of green but not exactly red.  5th drop def made it red.   I will remember to keep adding drops until an additional drop doesn’t have a change as opposed to the drop that stimulated a change. In that case the AK was 5, Bromine 2, ph 7.6

Calcium hardness was 210.

[waterbear]

I suspect  your TA is closer to 60 or 70. You are using a 25 ml sample, right?

Are you using a 10 ml or 25 ml sample for the total bromine test? If you are using a 25 ml sample then each drop is .5 ppm bromine and with a 10 ml sample it's 1.25 ppm bromine. You said TA was 5 and bromine 2. I suspect that is the number of drops and not the actual reading where you multply the number of drops by the ppm amount each drop represents. This depends on your sample size, either 10 ml or 25 ml;.

[CalebM12]

Ok I reran everything yesterday

Ph 7.8

AK 25 ml 5 drops —> 50 (I ran this 2x) and  both times the 6th drop made no noticeable difference 

Bromine 25 mil 4 drops —> 2

Hardness 22 drops —> 220

 Also took a sample to store this AM and got the attached reading. 
 

[waterbear]

26 minutes ago, CalebM12 said:

Also took a sample to store this AM and got the attached reading. 

with YOUR test numbers (which I trust more since the store is using SpinDisc testing:

pH is fine right now, don't worry about lowering it unti it hits 8.0 then don't lower it below 7.6. that is your 'sweet spot' for best pH stability.

Given the precision of the Taylor TA is +/- 10 ppm and, if memory serves the Lamotte is +10/- 25 ppm these 2 readings are within the range of accuracy.

The Taylor has a precison of +/- 10 ppm for the CH, don't remember what the LaMotte is but either way your CH is fine for a spa. I do remember that when I did water testing with the Waterlink system that CH tested lower then when I did it with the Taylor on the same sample.

[CalebM12]

Really appreciate all your help. Will use the Taylor as my guide and try to keep all readings at those levels.  Feeling better about ability to manage and think part of issue before was overreacting to the disc readings. Taylor test kit was a great investment.