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isstax

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we are contemplating putting a pool on our property. the person we have selected has offered us the

following pool & equipment:

Pool is mfgd by Fort Wayne, size we are looking at is 17 x 34

Pump, heater and filter is mfgd by Sta-Rite

if we want other equipment he has no problem switching it for us. 2 of the other choices we have

been offered by 2 other pool installers is:

Hayward pump & filter, Raypak heater

Jandy pump, filter & heater

we are contemplating using a salt system instead of chlorine system

do any of you have experience with the any of the above equipment and if so, please let us have some input.

as for steps my wife wants to put the vinyl cover over them (same as pool), but we have been told to

use a fiberglass one instead since we have a dog and we know she will want to go into the water

occasionally.

any suggestions/help we receive from you will be appreciated.

if anyone wants to email me directly: isstax@yahoo.com

thank you!!!

Irv

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we are contemplating putting a pool on our property. the person we have selected has offered us the

following pool & equipment:

Pool is mfgd by Fort Wayne, size we are looking at is 17 x 34

Pump, heater and filter is mfgd by Sta-Rite

if we want other equipment he has no problem switching it for us. 2 of the other choices we have

been offered by 2 other pool installers is:

Hayward pump & filter, Raypak heater

Jandy pump, filter & heater

we are contemplating using a salt system instead of chlorine system

do any of you have experience with the any of the above equipment and if so, please let us have some input.

as for steps my wife wants to put the vinyl cover over them (same as pool), but we have been told to

use a fiberglass one instead since we have a dog and we know she will want to go into the water

occasionally.

any suggestions/help we receive from you will be appreciated.

if anyone wants to email me directly: isstax@yahoo.com

thank you!!!

Irv

My preference would be for a starite dynaglass pump, Hayward DE filter, and Jandy LD Heater. BUT, if you go with all Jandy, you qualify for the proedge warranty which extends the usual 1 year unlimited warranties of the individual equipment to 3 years for everything.

The Fiberglass steps are very nice and will last a long time. And the Salt system is a winner. I honestly cannot see much difference between any of the manufacturers systems either.

also, make sure you get an automatic cleaner, you will thank yourself later. I prefer pressure side like the polaris 280 or 380. Dealer cost on the pump and head is around 400 bucks and since it's a new pool, running the necessary extra plumbing is a breeze. If you lean on them some, they should throw that in for free considering the money you are about to spend.

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  • 3 months later...

My preference would be for a starite dynaglass pump, Hayward DE filter, and Jandy LD Heater. BUT, if you go with all Jandy, you qualify for the proedge warranty which extends the usual 1 year unlimited warranties of the individual equipment to 3 years for everything.

The Fiberglass steps are very nice and will last a long time. And the Salt system is a winner. I honestly cannot see much difference between any of the manufacturers systems either.

also, make sure you get an automatic cleaner, you will thank yourself later. I prefer pressure side like the polaris 280 or 380. Dealer cost on the pump and head is around 400 bucks and since it's a new pool, running the necessary extra plumbing is a breeze. If you lean on them some, they should throw that in for free considering the money you are about to spend.

There are many ways to improve the efficiency of any new pool as well as existing pools.

The main improvement is the pool pump you chose. consider a variable speed pump made by IKERIC, which will save many $$$$. If your pool is not fully designed yet, I can send you other pointers to make a much better pool than most pool contractors know about.

I finished mine last May (2005) and it works great at a fraction of the usual cost. Avoid large pumps as most contractors advocate.

If you want more info, please say so and I'll send a full writeup. If your contract is signed and can't be changed, it is probably too late.

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There are many ways to improve the efficiency of any new pool as well as existing pools.

The main improvement is the pool pump you chose. consider a variable speed pump made by IKERIC, which will save many $$$$. If your pool is not fully designed yet, I can send you other pointers to make a much better pool than most pool contractors know about.

I finished mine last May (2005) and it works great at a fraction of the usual cost. Avoid large pumps as most contractors advocate.

If you want more info, please say so and I'll send a full writeup. If your contract is signed and can't be changed, it is probably too late.

One thing I would suggest if you are considering a heater, go with a heat pump rather than a gas heater. It's a little more costly to purchase but will pay for itself in gas savings. Also consider a non-chlorine system to sanitize the pool. Salt generators work, but the water will have a salty taste. Good luck, and Happy Swimming!

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One thing I would suggest if you are considering a heater, go with a heat pump rather than a gas heater. It's a little more costly to purchase but will pay for itself in gas savings. Also consider a non-chlorine system to sanitize the pool. Salt generators work, but the water will have a salty taste. Good luck, and Happy Swimming!

There is only one non chlorine system that is EPA approved for pools and that is biguinide (Bacqua, Softswim, etc..) While they do work they are probably the most costly way to sanitize and they are very hard on filters, tend to goo them up. Other systems (copper/silver/zince ions whether introduced by a cartridge (poolfrog, zodiac), ionizer, or a liqued (Pristine Blue, etc.) STILL require a .5ppm residual free chlorine for sanitation. They will not provide safe (pathogen free) water on their own and introduce metals into the water that can create problems (staining of pools and people)! Salt systems work very well (they maufacture chlorine by electrolysis of salt) and at the level of salt that most manufaturers recommend (about 3200ppm) you will NOT taste the salt and will probably never have to shock or deal with combined chlorine once they are adjusted properly. Combined chlorine and shocking is the biggest drawback and headache to using chlorine. All these different systems still require that you balance your water but it is really very easy to learn how.

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There is only one non chlorine system that is EPA approved for pools and that is biguinide (Bacqua, Softswim, etc..) While they do work they are probably the most costly way to sanitize and they are very hard on filters, tend to goo them up. Other systems (copper/silver/zince ions whether introduced by a cartridge (poolfrog, zodiac), ionizer, or a liqued (Pristine Blue, etc.) STILL require a .5ppm residual free chlorine for sanitation. They will not provide safe (pathogen free) water on their own and introduce metals into the water that can create problems (staining of pools and people)! Salt systems work very well (they maufacture chlorine by electrolysis of salt) and at the level of salt that most manufaturers recommend (about 3200ppm) you will NOT taste the salt and will probably never have to shock or deal with combined chlorine once they are adjusted properly. Combined chlorine and shocking is the biggest drawback and headache to using chlorine. All these different systems still require that you balance your water but it is really very easy to learn how.

==================================================

If anyone is contemplating a new pool or modifying an existing pool, I've learned methods to save 60-70% of the maintenance costs. Send me a request and I'll email you a writeup on it. Make a request to: ***.Zscheile@ATTGlobal.net

I've installed a salt water system and it works great. While American pool contractors have not used them much in the past, more are doing so now. In Australia, nearly 100% of pools are salt water pools.

The taste of salt is almost nil, since the salinity is 1/10 that of ocean water. There is no slimmy, slippery feel to the water like chlorine gives, there is no drying of the skin either. Maintenance is far easier since you never have to add chlorine to it. Never have to add more salt, either. Salt content is controlled with a simply dial.

In general, pool contractors tend to do the same things year after year, without changing to new methods.

However, there ARE better ways.

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==================================================

If anyone is contemplating a new pool or modifying an existing pool, I've learned methods to save 60-70% of the maintenance costs. Send me a request and I'll email you a writeup on it. Make a request to: ***.Zscheile@ATTGlobal.net

I've installed a salt water system and it works great. While American pool contractors have not used them much in the past, more are doing so now. In Australia, nearly 100% of pools are salt water pools.

The taste of salt is almost nil, since the salinity is 1/10 that of ocean water. There is no slimmy, slippery feel to the water like chlorine gives, there is no drying of the skin either. Maintenance is far easier since you never have to add chlorine to it. Never have to add more salt, either. Salt content is controlled with a simply dial.

Not completely true, the chlorine output is controlled by the dial or (in digital sytems) by changing the readout, NOT the salt level. That can only be changed by either adding more salt or by partially draining and then refilling.

You sometimes MIGHT need to add chlorine if you need to shock. Yes, most SWG's have a shock or superchlorinate setting but using it will shorten the life of your cell and it is just as easy to dump in a jug or two of liquid bleach!

Finally, you DO have to add salt as a maintenance because the salt level will go down because of splashout, rain, etc. Most manufacture's recommend salt levels of 3200ppm but the range is from about 2800 to 6000 ppm. Most of the U.S. salt cells run at 3200ppm! Salt is MUCH easier to add than chlorine and only needs to be checked about once a month!

The biggest maintenance with a SWG is the need to constantly add acid to keep the pH in line. One of the byproducts of chlorine generation is the formation of Sodium Hydroxide which is extremely alkaline (exact same thing that gives liquid chlorine it's high pH) and this does need to be kept in line with Muriatic acid (or dry acid but Muriatic is a better choice since you are not adding sulphate ions to the water). The constant upward pH drift is the only minor inconvenience of a SWG and it is STILL easier than manually dosing with chlorine or using a feeder!

In general, pool contractors tend to do the same things year after year, without changing to new methods.

However, there ARE better ways.

Depends on the contractor. Some of them want to sell you every new techonology that is available, even some of the ones that are dubious, at best. Look at ozone and in floor cleaners, for examples! Both are examples of technology that introduce more problems then the problem they are meant to solve and both can actually damage your pool system

When I was getting my pool quotes a few years back EVERY contractor that I spoke with recommmended going with a SWG, btw!

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Depends on the contractor. Some of them want to sell you every new techonology that is available, even some of the ones that are dubious, at best. Look at ozone and in floor cleaners, for examples! Both are examples of technology that introduce more problems then the problem they are meant to solve and both can actually damage your pool system

When I was getting my pool quotes a few years back EVERY contractor that I spoke with recommmended going with a SWG, btw!

I agree with you on the infloor cleaning systems, they are pretty much junk. But I don't see how Ozone is dubious or creates more problems? They have been using Ozone in Europe since the 50's, and here in the US, spa manufacturers have been using it for at least 15 years. It's very effective in small bodies of water. so I tend to believe it's here to stay. The old units with the UV generators were not very good on large bodies of water,, but the New Corona discharge models are very effective. Did you know that there is an olympic sized commercial pool in Alabama that just uses Ozone for sanitizing?

By the way, While the salt Genny is great, You do have to use a small amount of Sanitizer with it. Not much, but some. There is a new unit from Del Ozone called the Triopure that is one unit with an Ozone Gen and salt gen cell in it. We are using them now and they are very effective. No chlorine required at all.

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Depends on the contractor. Some of them want to sell you every new techonology that is available, even some of the ones that are dubious, at best. Look at ozone and in floor cleaners, for examples! Both are examples of technology that introduce more problems then the problem they are meant to solve and both can actually damage your pool system

When I was getting my pool quotes a few years back EVERY contractor that I spoke with recommmended going with a SWG, btw!

Waterbear: you are correct about my post. I have never added salt in one year's time. The chlorine (not the salt), is adjusted by a dial, - my error in wording. Yes, the Ph does drift upward and I add muriatic acid (1 cup/wk) but nothing more. The variable speed pump controls work great using a very low rpm setting for a longer filtering time - much much cheaper. My investigation of in floor cleaners concurs with your thoughts, altho maybe good in windblown, sandy areas.

Ozone generators work good in spas if you run them every 12 hrs. After 12 hrs the ozone dissipates and it must be regenerated. Nice not to have to add chlorine very often. For pools, it is great not to have to add chlorine also (by installing a SWG).

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I agree with you on the infloor cleaning systems, they are pretty much junk. But I don't see how Ozone is dubious or creates more problems? They have been using Ozone in Europe since the 50's, and here in the US, spa manufacturers have been using it for at least 15 years. It's very effective in small bodies of water. so I tend to believe it's here to stay. The old units with the UV generators were not very good on large bodies of water,, but the New Corona discharge models are very effective. Did you know that there is an olympic sized commercial pool in Alabama that just uses Ozone for sanitizing?

I would not swim in it since there is no residual sanitizer in the pool!

By the way, While the salt Genny is great, You do have to use a small amount of Sanitizer with it. Not much, but some. There is a new unit from Del Ozone called the Triopure that is one unit with an Ozone Gen and salt gen cell in it. We are using them now and they are very effective. No chlorine required at all.

The chlorine is being generated by the salt cell!

I assume that by 'salt Genny" you mean a salt water generator? They manufacture chlorine by electrylosis of salt water. They do NOT require the use of a "small amount of sanitizer" , they PRODUCE the sanitizer (chlorine) and in most systems they also elimiate the need to shock.

The problems with ozone are:

ozone is EXTREMELY TOXIC

ozone leaves no residual in the water (in fact the water in the pool MUST test 0ppm ozone or it is not considered safe!)

You must use a residual sanitizer for this reason (chlorine) and ozone will depleat chorine levels and vice versa so you are constantly fighting yourself!

In areas of high humidity (such as Florida where I live) there can be problems generating the ozone and air dryers are necessary (and don't always work that well)

the CO$T!

I have quite a bit of experience with ozone. I have kept salt water aquariums for about 30 years now and have used ozone in my tanks for maybe 20 of that (I no longer do). Ozone has also been used in aquairums since the 50's . It is precisely becuase of my experience in using ozone that I chose NOT to use it in my pool/ spa.

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I assume that by 'salt Genny" you mean a salt water generator? They manufacture chlorine by electrylosis of salt water. They do NOT require the use of a "small amount of sanitizer" , they PRODUCE the sanitizer (chlorine) and in most systems they also elimiate the need to shock.

The problems with ozone are:

ozone is EXTREMELY TOXIC

ozone leaves no residual in the water (in fact the water in the pool MUST test 0ppm ozone or it is not considered safe!)

You must use a residual sanitizer for this reason (chlorine) and ozone will depleat chorine levels and vice versa so you are constantly fighting yourself!

In areas of high humidity (such as Florida where I live) there can be problems generating the ozone and air dryers are necessary (and don't always work that well)

the CO$T!

I have quite a bit of experience with ozone. I have kept salt water aquariums for about 30 years now and have used ozone in my tanks for maybe 20 of that (I no longer do). Ozone has also been used in aquairums since the 50's . It is precisely becuase of my experience in using ozone that I chose NOT to use it in my pool/ spa.

Yes, I am quite aware that they produce the sanitizer. However, in the real world, there comes a time when you will have to supplement it. When the pool requires "superchorination" the salt chlorine generator cannot produce enough to accomplish this, no matter what it says on the dial. There are not any units out there that can give you 10ppm chlorine residual required for superchlorination at startup or if you do encounter algae. Anyone can encounter algae, a leak that runs the pump dry, a homeowner who accidentally shuts the system down for a few days, whatever the reason. You just cannot get rid of it by turning up the dial. YOu will have to shock the pool in that instance.

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Yes, I am quite aware that they produce the sanitizer. However, in the real world, there comes a time when you will have to supplement it. When the pool requires "superchorination" the salt chlorine generator cannot produce enough to accomplish this, no matter what it says on the dial. There are not any units out there that can give you 10ppm chlorine residual required for superchlorination at startup or if you do encounter algae. Anyone can encounter algae, a leak that runs the pump dry, a homeowner who accidentally shuts the system down for a few days, whatever the reason. You just cannot get rid of it by turning up the dial. YOu will have to shock the pool in that instance.

I agree that it is not a good idea to use your SWG to superchlorinate, it will shorten the life of the cell but when the cell is manufacuring chlorine the water in the chamber is being superchlorinate to high levels constantly. In normal operation there usually is NO need to superchlorinate (this can be checked by monitoring Combined Chlorine levels)

If the very rare need to superchlorinate arises sodium hypochlorite is probably the best thing to use since this is what the cell itself is producing. Sodium hypochlorite is the same as liquid chlorine and also laundry bleach. Only difference is the concentration (12.5% vs 6% [ultra bleach] or 5.25% [regular bleach]) so pouring some bleach in the pool IF you have a problem is pretty easy. Also, if you are starting a pool you need to put the stabilizer in their so it would make sense to trichlor or dichlor to get your stabilizer levels up to the recommended 60-80 ppm while you chlorinate initially.

As far as no units out there not being about to produce 10ppm FC by setting it to superchlorinate you are wrong!. I have an aqualogic pS-8 and it accidently got set to superchlorinate once (24 hurs cycle) and the next day my FC levels were 25 ppm (done with an FAS-DPD test)!

Finally, to reach 'breakpoint chlorination" it might be necessary to go higher than 10 ppm. this is dependant on the level of CYA (and organics) in the pool! You know when you have reached breakpoint when your combined chlorine has dropped to 0 ppm and the 'shock' chlorine level is holding overnight. At this point you can let your FC level drop to normal.

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I agree that it is not a good idea to use your SWG to superchlorinate, it will shorten the life of the cell but when the cell is manufacuring chlorine the water in the chamber is being superchlorinate to high levels constantly. In normal operation there usually is NO need to superchlorinate (this can be checked by monitoring Combined Chlorine levels)

If the very rare need to superchlorinate arises sodium hypochlorite is probably the best thing to use since this is what the cell itself is producing. Sodium hypochlorite is the same as liquid chlorine and also laundry bleach. Only difference is the concentration (12.5% vs 6% [ultra bleach] or 5.25% [regular bleach]) so pouring some bleach in the pool IF you have a problem is pretty easy. Also, if you are starting a pool you need to put the stabilizer in their so it would make sense to trichlor or dichlor to get your stabilizer levels up to the recommended 60-80 ppm while you chlorinate initially.

As far as no units out there not being about to produce 10ppm FC by setting it to superchlorinate you are wrong!. I have an aqualogic pS-8 and it accidently got set to superchlorinate once (24 hurs cycle) and the next day my FC levels were 25 ppm (done with an FAS-DPD test)!

Finally, to reach 'breakpoint chlorination" it might be necessary to go higher than 10 ppm. this is dependant on the level of CYA (and organics) in the pool! You know when you have reached breakpoint when your combined chlorine has dropped to 0 ppm and the 'shock' chlorine level is holding overnight. At this point you can let your FC level drop to normal.

unless you had a very large unit on a spa or very small pool, I just don't believe you got that level or free chlorine out of a salt generator.

I was just pointing out to the original poster that even with this salt system, you will not totally eliminate the use of chlorine in some cases. you agreed with that. If you could get 25ppm out of your Ps-8, then why would you mention the need to use another sanitizer?

the chemistry lesson aside, I know what I see in the field and If it was possible to get 10+ppm on a regular basis, then I would be a happier man not having to handle chlorine. I have found that this just is not the case and there comes a time when the salt gen needs some help. Keep going with your points, it's interesting reading.

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unless you had a very large unit on a spa or very small pool, I just don't believe you got that level or free chlorine out of a salt generator.

I actually DO have a small pool and spa. 6600 gal fiberglass and 300 gal acylic so I guess I am just under 7000 gal total. I have the standard aqualogic/aquarite salt cell which produces 1.45 pounds of chlorine per 24 hour day and is for pools up to 40,000 gal. according to manufacturer's specs. Therefore it is no surprise that I would get that high a level of FC. Other companies have salt cell in different sizes and outputs. The chlorine produced by the generators is 100% available (same as chlorine gas) as opposed to other forms of chlorine (for example, dichlor is usually about 60% available chlorine)

The point it a SWG CAN superchlorinate....depends on the pool and only testing the FC levels will tell.

I was just pointing out to the original poster that even with this salt system, you will not totally eliminate the use of chlorine in some cases. you agreed with that. If you could get 25ppm out of your Ps-8, then why would you mention the need to use another sanitizer?

I said there might be a need for additional chlorine, not another sanitizer which implies something other than chlorine. Ionizer require a residual chlorine in the water as does ozone. You now have 2 sanitizers in the water.

I personally feel that if there is CC it is better to shock with another form of chlorine becuase the life of a salt cell is rated in hours of use and the superchlorinate setting will definately shorten the life of the cell with continued use. However, the need to shock a properly set up SWG and properly maintained water is a very rare occurance since the water in the cell is constanly being shocked with the very high FC levels in the cell. Bad water management will create problems no matter what type of sanitizing system you are using.

the chemistry lesson aside, I know what I see in the field and If it was possible to get 10+ppm on a regular basis, then I would be a happier man not having to handle chlorine. I have found that this just is not the case and there comes a time when the salt gen needs some help. Keep going with your points, it's interesting reading.

I thank you that you find my posts intersting reading. :D

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  • 2 weeks later...

I thank you that you find my posts intersting reading. :D

Does anyone make a system that is totally maintenance free? I would like to have a setup that I just keep all the chemicals in storage units and it injects what it needs into the water. Is there anything like that available?

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The best thing for low maintenance is a salt water pool. It usually requires NO extra chlorine. Just add some acid 1x/wk. It is basically free sanitation since the unit that separates the salt into sodium and chlorine (which kills the germs) operates only a small percentage of the time. It can be adjusted with a dial. Almost never add salt.

The water doesn't taste salty, doesn't sting the eyes, doesn't dry out the skin, no slimmy feeling to the water, no need to rinse off after swimming.

Add a pool cover to keep out leaves and dust so very little cleaning is required. Brush it 1x/2 months.

If you want low maintenance costs, install a Variable Speed Pump by IKERIC to drastically (60-70%) reduce filtering costs, which is an ongoing, daily cost.

Pretty simple!! Low cost and low maintenance. Ideal. I did these things and proved it.

========================================

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The best thing for low maintenance is a salt water pool. It usually requires NO extra chlorine. Just add some acid 1x/wk. It is basically free sanitation since the unit that separates the salt into sodium and chlorine (which kills the germs) operates only a small percentage of the time. It can be adjusted with a dial. Almost never add salt.

The water doesn't taste salty, doesn't sting the eyes, doesn't dry out the skin, no slimmy feeling to the water, no need to rinse off after swimming.

Add a pool cover to keep out leaves and dust so very little cleaning is required. Brush it 1x/2 months.

If you want low maintenance costs, install a Variable Speed Pump by IKERIC to drastically (60-70%) reduce filtering costs, which is an ongoing, daily cost.

Pretty simple!! Low cost and low maintenance. Ideal. I did these things and proved it.

========================================

I agree that a SWG is probably less maintenance than using other forms of chlorine (or alternative sanitizers) for sanitaion but it does NOT eliminate the need to balance the water and make sure that there is proper stablizer level. And you have to keep tabs on the salt level in the water. Don't get me wrong. I LOVE my SWG but it will not eliminate pool maintenance. You still have to brush and vacumn, anyway.

There are systems for commercial pools that use ORP controllers, pH controllers, etc. and dosing pumps to maintain sanitizer levels but they require a lot of technicall know how to keep them operating properly

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Does anyone make a system that is totally maintenance free? I would like to have a setup that I just keep all the chemicals in storage units and it injects what it needs into the water. Is there anything like that available?

There are several different manufacturers that make automated chemical control systems. The one that we use the most is a Polaris chemical control. It can be set up to use liquid chlorine or an erosion feeder with chlorine or bromine. With these systems you can control your sanitizer and your ph but other test still have to be done once in a while. The systems are not cheap either. The Polaris system that I use is about $2800.00.

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