What Is A "cheapy" Hot Tub?

[New NW tub owner]

Yes I assumed it from the past history of Hydro, my experience looking at loads of used units in need of repair and the price of the tub. Because I have never seen a Costco Platinum whatever. But Hydro has made plenty of tubs for plenty of different box stores. In this area it's Home Depot. I have to do that. But I can give you a pretty good assumption, because in this country they don't give nothing away, you always get what you pay for. What would make you think they are not the lessor expensive components? Other than they have lasted a year or two with no problems, because I know you will say that. My waterway jets on my GL are 6 years old and starting to show a bit of brittlness and wear. Matter of fact all the plastic components are.

Hydrospa doesn't sell their tubs through Home Depot, for sure. Don't know who makes them but if you look at the Home Depot tubs and you're familiar with the characteristics of hydrospa tubs, it's obvious that the Home Depot tubs are not hydrospa tubs. You're right, though, you get what you pay for. With the Costco tub, you don't get a dealer, choice in models or colors, wet testing, after sale support from Costco, a commission for the salesman, overhead for the hot tub store, installation help, start-up assistance, or on-site service. What you do get is a pretty good tub. As far as the jets, I'll open up the pump compartment on my tub in a few weeks when the weather warms up and see if I can see any model or part nos. on the back of some of the jets to see what they are. Generally, though, based on what I've seen in my tub, Hydrospa seems to use pretty good components for their tubs so I'd be surprised if the jets were low quality.

[Roger]

Hydrospa doesn't sell their tubs through Home Depot, for sure. Don't know who makes them but if you look at the Home Depot tubs and you're familiar with the characteristics of hydrospa tubs, it's obvious that the Home Depot tubs are not hydrospa tubs. You're right, though, you get what you pay for. With the Costco tub, you don't get a dealer, choice in models or colors, wet testing, after sale support from Costco, a commission for the salesman, overhead for the hot tub store, installation help, start-up assistance, or on-site service. What you do get is a pretty good tub. As far as the jets, I'll open up the pump compartment on my tub in a few weeks when the weather warms up and see if I can see any model or part nos. on the back of some of the jets to see what they are. Generally, though, based on what I've seen in my tub, Hydrospa seems to use pretty good components for their tubs so I'd be surprised if the jets were low quality.

I didn't say Home Depot sold Hydro tubs, but they did I think 4 or 5 years back. Most stores like that change manufacturers quit often as the deals they get shift from maufacturer to manufacturer. Based on who quoted the best that particular year. I actualy service more tubs from stores like that than any dealer tubs. Around here the dealers don't like to mess with them so it's easy pickens for us independents, we also charge a lower hourly rate 65 per v 75 per which is more attractive to that kind of buyer. Which in no means is an insult to "that kind of buyer" just a fact. I am that kind of buyer, so I would be insulting myself.

[Skee]

I agree, they are just as good as the "big boy" major brands and better made than some selling for over 10,000.

Buyers need to educate themselves and not waste money, nor shoud they support rip off prices on mediocre products, touted as "the best spas".

I agree, they are just as good as the "big boy" major brands and better made than some selling for over 10,000.

Buyers need to educate themselves and not waste money, nor shoud they support rip off prices on mediocre products, touted as "the best spas".

I think that was sarcasm. I could be wrong. But the secret knock pushed it over the edge.

[Webini]

Buyers need to educate themselves and not waste money, nor shoud they support rip off prices on mediocre products, touted as "the best spas".

I totally agree that buyers need to stay away at all costs from a company that say that they are "The Best HotTubs in the World" and/or " The only quality hot tubs available".

[jmendoza17]

recall

[Webini]

Webini; I have seen your spa up close, and it is a rip off. It is a single sheet of plastic stuffed with foam. It has no leg jets at all, and no above water neck or shoulder jets. It is underpowered, so they put in a diverter valve so that all the jets can't run at full pressure at one time.

I would never sell nor would I promote a spa that you can't use all the jets at full pressure at the same time.

My tunes are number one and number two on two sites judged by musicians and listeners.

Not sure what your issue is Jimmy. Why the attack? I agreed with you that companies that spout useless hyperbole like "The Best HotTubs in the World" and/or " The only quality hot tubs available" are not to be trusted.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Not sure what your issue is Jimmy. Why the attack? I agreed with you that companies that spout useless hyperbole like "The Best HotTubs in the World" and/or " The only quality hot tubs available" are not to be trusted.

Yet you purchased a spa from a company with multiple violations of false advertising on the first page.

Pretty funny. At least, Now, I can back up my statements with facts, but they only use words.

For years Sundance had "Best Built Hot Tubs in the World" or some crap, like that, while the plumbing was falling apart, so much so that they had to be bought by Jacuzzi or fold.

Ultimate this and Ulitmate that. Only Mother Nature Does a Better Job.

Maybe you need to read the advertising of the company you bought from, because by what you just said, you would never own it.

[Webini]

Yet you purchased a spa from a company with multiple violations of false advertising on the first page.

Pretty funny. At least, Now, I can back up my statements with facts, but they only use words.

For years Sundance had "Best Built Hot Tubs in the World" or some crap, like that, while the plumbing was falling apart, so much so that they had to be bought by Jacuzzi or fold.

Ultimate this and Ulitmate that. Only Mother Nature Does a Better Job.

Maybe you need to read the advertising of the company you bought from, because by what you just said, you would never own it.

You are a riot. I was referring to you putting on your home page THE EXACT WORDS THAT YOU CALL EVERYONE ELSE OUT FOR. Yet you ignore that. Your reality distortion field is in operation again.

I'll play along though. Where on http://www.hotspring.com/index_spas_hot_spring.html are the words to which you refer?

[hottublady]

Some of the 'regulars' (who I assume are dealers or connected with the hot tub business in some way) repeatedly call the discount Costco hot tubs 'cheapy' hot tubs and extoll the quality of the hot tubs sold at dealers. I bought a Costco Platinum Elite II hot tub last year so I have had some time to get to know it and have been very happy with it. I was recently in a hot tub store that was a Jacuzzi dealer (to buy water test stuff) and I spent some time looking at one of the very high-end floor models with a clear plastic panel on the pump compartment to show its guts. Naturally, I gave it a close inspection to see if maybe I should be looking to 'trade-up' from my 'cheapy' hot tub to one that is allegedly 'non-cheapy' but I couldn't see what I was supposed to be getting. The components, construction methods, pumps, shell, features, etc look very similar. So come on, all you hot tub experts. What exactly are the differences in design, quality, features, between my PE2 tub and the much more expensive tubs in dealers? One thing I could see was that the Jacuzzi tub that I was looking at had a very elaborate lighting setup with little rows of lights as well as two led lights in the tub while my tub only has one color-changing led light so that would be an extra feature but I'm sure there is a substantial extra cost for that as well.

One other thing. If the Costco hot tubs are as bad as some of you claim, then why aren't there any used ones for sale by people looking to dump them and trade up? There are a LOT of used hot tubs for sale on Craig's list from all of the major manufacturer's but I didn't see a single listing for a Costco PE1 or PE2. I can see why there wouldn't be any of the new Costco Legend Elite models up for sale used but if the PE1 or PE2 were really dogs, I'd think there would be at least a couple up for sale somewhere by trade-uppers since Costco has to have sold thousands of them.

Those tubs are probably at the DUMP. I wouldn't even take the energy to explain all the reasons why they are different, because you have already made up your mind.

[soakerman]

Those tubs are probably at the DUMP. I wouldn't even take the energy to explain all the reasons why they are different, because you have already made up your mind.

You wish they where at the dump but the reality is you don't know the components or the quality of the spa yet you know the sticker price and get smugg assuming they must be missing something if they are thousands less then what you sell. I would wager that the only thing missing is a dealer overhead and a sales commision. What is the markup on the spas you sell? and what's missing? I am all ears

[104 Degrees]

You wish they where at the dump but the reality is you don't know the components or the quality of the spa yet you know the sticker price and get smugg assuming they must be missing something if they are thousands less then what you sell. I would wager that the only thing missing is a dealer overhead and a sales commision. What is the markup on the spas you sell? and what's missing? I am all ears

Its cheaper to cut them up then it is to sell used. its a tax thing

[hottublady]

You wish they where at the dump but the reality is you don't know the components or the quality of the spa yet you know the sticker price and get smugg assuming they must be missing something if they are thousands less then what you sell. I would wager that the only thing missing is a dealer overhead and a sales commision. What is the markup on the spas you sell? and what's missing? I am all ears

I am not going to argue with you.... I work as a hot tub researcher for a magazine. I have seen spas being built. As you... No... you haven't. All products on the market are marked up... That's how businesses make money and why people have jobs.

[New NW tub owner]

Those tubs are probably at the DUMP. I wouldn't even take the energy to explain all the reasons why they are different, because you have already made up your mind.

I've already bought a nice costco tub so my mind does not need to be 'made up.' I started this thread, though, because I was honestly interested in what the differences were between my tub that people in your camp call 'cheapy' and the 'high end' tubs. As I said in my original post, I couldn't see any significant differences and so this thread provided a forum for knowledgable hot tub professionals and sales people to point out all of the construction details that I must have missed. I expected that there would be at least one person who would post with some interesting technical insights about this. Instead there was one or two people who said my tub was not as well insulated as the 'high end' tub, but they couldn't really say what or why was less, and there was one guy who implied that the jets in my tub were $10 jets instead of the $40 jets in that 'high end' tub. His argument was a little weakened, though, when he said that he'd never seen a costco tub up close (which I suppose is a good thing since he was a hot tub repair guy) and he didn't actually know what jets were used in the costco tubs.

Bottom line is that all of the hot tub experts here who like to run down the costco tubs seem to be all hat and no cattle, as they say in Texas. Your comment, however, reaches a new low, in that line, when you say that you can't be bothered to take the energy to explain all the reasons why my tub is allegedly a 'cheapy' tub and you suggest that the costco tubs are at the dump. Let me put this to you words you might understand. Several of my neighbors have hot tubs of various vintages from several different major manufacturers. My costco tub is the newest of this little group and easily the best in features and performance. The only people who will buy your trash talking about the costco tubs are people who don't know anything about hot tubs. I guess that's your target customer.

[New NW tub owner]

I am not going to argue with you.... I work as a hot tub researcher for a magazine. I have seen spas being built. As you... No... you haven't. All products on the market are marked up... That's how businesses make money and why people have jobs.

Really? You are a professional hot tub researcher? For a magazine? Sorry, but you sound like a hot tub sales rep to me. What magazine? Provide the link for it. Better yet, provide a link to a story you've written about hot tubs. I have seen a lot of your posts here over the last few months but I have never seen you make even one substantive comment about hot tub quality or features so your hot tub knowledge appears, to be polite, just 'a little thin. '

[Roger]

In defense of everyone here who believes there is a difference because of there experience with cheap inexpensive brands sold at big box stores with no deliver, no dealer backing and just aren't built the same. We started out defending the double few thousand more the dealer charges. Because it has turned into a pissing match between those who are justifying there purchase and gaining there own experience over time. Maybe we should let this thread go for about....ohhh I think the oldest Hydro/Costco unit here is like 2 years.....so another 3-4 and let those who believe they re the same, gain there own expertise. And just leave this alone. You guys can pitch your brand and anyone else who wants to pitch there favorite can do so. We will respect your vast knowledge and you can respect ours. And we can let the consumer decide. Like Alexmom.

[soakerman]

In defense of everyone here who believes there is a difference because of there experience with cheap inexpensive brands sold at big box stores with no deliver, no dealer backing and just aren't built the same. We started out defending the double few thousand more the dealer charges.

No one is pitching their brand untill you say it is a low end spa was lesser construction and components but again evade the question of " what is the differance?"

[Roger]

I have told you over and over, along with several others here what the different is. The components are NOT high end. The constructions is middle of the road, the insulation is inferior to the major manufacturers, theres no delivery, setup, or dealer backing. But you don't want to hear it. In this country if you pay 4-5 thousand for a spa you get a spa worth 4-5 thousand, not neccesarily a bad thing if it is all you can afford and if it is good enough for you. If you pay 7-9 thousand for a spa you get a better built, better insulated, better backed spa, simple. But you come here telling us it is the same as a 10 thousand dollar spa, and yet won't listen to the opinion of those with way more experience than you. You keep bringing up the fact that I have never seen a Costco PE whatever, your right but the fact that I have seen hundreds of Hydro Spa units is not exceptable to you as a way for my opinion to be valuable. Like Hydro Spa builds a completely different tub for Costco, a better built one and charges less for it, yea thats how us Americans do business. Heck Hydro wants Costco to make all the money so they give them to Costco.

So I am willing to let you and everyone else who feels there Costco units are just as good as a "10,000" dollar unit have there opinion and learn for themselfs, but it won't happen tomorrow, it wil happen in a few years. As long as you and everyone else that thinks there is NO DIFFERENCE between a 4000 dollar tub and a 8000 dollar tub give us our opinion. Ours is just as valid as yours.

They have yet to prove whether they are a good value tub. And there is a difference between a VALUE tub and a high end tub.

[New NW tub owner]

Roger, you have yet to identify even ONE single component in the costco hot tub that is not high quality. Also, I doubt that you have even seen "hundreds" of hydrospa tubs because you said here that Home Depot sold hydrospa tubs when it was obvious to someone even slightly familiar with a hydrospa tub that they did not. When I pointed that out, you then said that Home Depot did that at some time in the past. So, Roger, let's start with the shell. Is the Costco tub's acrylic/fiberglass shell a "low end" shell or is it the best available anywhere?

[Roger]

Because of the cost of the unit I would have to say that there are some corners cut in the composition of resins and the skill of the work force manufacturing the tub. Which would lead to some defieciencys but would not be detrimental in the longevity of the shell. Because very very few tubs last as long as the shell and alot of manufacturers don't even use fiberglass backed acrylic. But you don't want my opinion so why are you asking? The Arctic shell for example (which is considered high end) will hold water without a frame, will the hydro shell?

Are the frame members that hold up that shell of your Costco unit stapled to each other or screwed? What is the exact dimension of the uprights?

[alexmom]

As the "temporary" owner of a budget spa, I can tell you that there is a HUGE difference between it and the higher end models made by the same company, even though their website states differently. While some of the components have a decent brand name, they are the cheapest models that these brands make, and the insulation, plumbing and construction is definitely inferior to every other mid to high end spa I've since inspected. I have no idea if the Costco tubs are inferior as some people claim as I've never been able to see one in person, but logic if nothing else dictates that the spa manufacturers cannot sell a spa through dealers for 8k or 10k, and then turn around and sell the exact same spa at costco for 4k. If they did that, what dealer in their right mind would stay with a manufacturer? Cutting out the middle man will save some cost, but I don't believe 50-70%. They must have made sigificant changes somewhere and I believe the experts when they say most components and construction methods will have been downgraded.

I'm definitely NOT qualified to lecture anyone about hot tubs, but as a consumer who's been slightly burned recently, I have to agree with the other posters that there MUST be a difference between a $4000 tub and an $8000 or $10000 tub, for many obvious reasons. However, that's not a bad thing at all if you like the tub and it meets your needs and makes you happy, it's just that the regulars here take issue with new consumers thinking they're getting top quality at bargin basement prices, and ending up disappointed. I'm now a firm believer that every potential spa buyer needs to look at/take pictures of any bargin tub they are considering and then go and compare it with a high end spa from a reputable dealer (if you can't compare both in the same showroom). That's the only way to know if you'll be happy with the compromises you'll be making by buying a less expensive tub. I'd actually be very interested to see someone take pictures of a Costco tub inside the cabinet, and post the make and model # of the Control Panel and motor/pump. That way the experts here could comment specifically and potential customers can see exactly what they're buying.

Just my humble .02 !

[jazzenjohn]

I'm definitely NOT qualified to lecture anyone about hot tubs, but as a consumer who's been slightly burned recently, I have to agree with the other posters that there MUST be a difference between a $4000 tub and an $8000 or $10000 tub, for many obvious reasons. However, that's not a bad thing at all if you like the tub and it meets your needs and makes you happy, it's just that the regulars here take issue with new consumers thinking they're getting top quality at bargin basement prices, and ending up disappointed. I'm now a firm believer that every potential spa buyer needs to look at/take pictures of any bargin tub they are considering and then go and compare it with a high end spa from a reputable dealer (if you can't compare both in the same showroom). That's the only way to know if you'll be happy with the compromises you'll be making by buying a less expensive tub. I'd actually be very interested to see someone take pictures of a Costco tub inside the cabinet, and post the make and model # of the Control Panel and motor/pump. That way the experts here could comment specifically and potential customers can see exactly what they're buying.

Just my humble .02 !

I've owned 1 tub and had it for about 10-12 years. It was a Cal-Spa. As far as dealer help, they told me that it was normal for it to lose 5+ gallons of water a week. I was dumb and believed them so they got away with not fixing it under warranty. It was a very slow leak, and although I had the spa for a long while and was generally pretty happy with it, I'd have to say the service you get from a dealer has more to do with the individual dealer and not so much with how much you spend on the spa.

I've seen a spa at Costco. It was a Hydro spa and was pretty much the Desire although it had a few more jets.

http://www.hydrospa.com/spas/sterlingleisure_desire.htm

They sell it for $4800-$4900. It had virtually no insulation and you could slide you fingers between the shell and cabinet right through to the inside. The structural build quality seemed below par but it was strong enough to be sat on it's side because that's how it comes shipped on the pallet. It could have been only cosmetic and not structural. I believe the jets, pumps, and shell were similar to what you'd find on a midrange dealer spa. Many of the air valves on the display model were broken off though, which is disconcerting. It seemed to me that it was a high "percieved value" offering. It seemed to give you alot for your money although the build quality was poor. Costco doesn't make the spa though and they sell spas from several other different manufacturers. They have some from Keys Backyard(I think), Infinity, and even a Hot Springs model. Whether the other models are similarly built as the 2 I saw would depend on the manufacturer.

One of the biggest differences I've seen between the Costco and Dealer models has been full foam. From my experience and some talking to a repairman this is what I believe.

Full foam is more difficult to find and fix leaks, but, with the foam holding all the hoses from vibrating over a long period it keeps the joints from flexing and thereby prevents some leaks.

Full foam insulates better, obviously, but insulation on the sides and bottom are far less important than insulation on the top.

Full foam can just as easily hide poor build quality as indicate high build quality. Because of the difficulty of repair, I would expect manufacturers would do a better job if it were going to be foamed.

I would be very interested in knowing how much difference it made in energy costs.

As far as the costs to build the spa, I don't believe there is more than $1000 difference in material costs between similar Costco and dealer spas, probably less. The costs to run a spa store are horrific compared to simply drop shipping them as Costco does. Costco doesn't even store them, they are shipped from the manufacturer. All a dealer can offer in return for the higher price is quality, knowledge, and service.

[Jim_The_Jim]

[quote name='jazzenjohn' date='May 23 2007, 04:55 PM' post='26996'I'm definitely NOT qualified to lecture anyone about hot tubs, but as a consumer who's been slightly burned recently, I have to agree with the other posters that there MUST be a difference between a $4000 tub and an $8000 or $10000 tub, for many obvious reasons. However, that's not a bad thing at all if you like the tub and it meets your needs and makes you happy, it's just that the regulars here take issue with new consumers thinking they're getting top quality at bargin basement prices, and ending up disappointed. I'm now a firm believer that every potential spa buyer needs to look at/take pictures of any bargin tub they are considering and then go and compare it with a high end spa from a reputable dealer (if you can't compare both in the same showroom). That's the only way to know if you'll be happy with the compromises you'll be making by buying a less expensive tub. I'd actually be very interested to see someone take pictures of a Costco tub inside the cabinet, and post the make and model # of the Control Panel and motor/pump. That way the experts here could comment specifically and potential customers can see exactly what they're buying.

Just my humble .02 !

I've owned 1 tub and had it for about 10-12 years. It was a Cal-Spa. As far as dealer help, they told me that it was normal for it to lose 5+ gallons of water a week. I was dumb and believed them so they got away with not fixing it under warranty. It was a very slow leak, and although I had the spa for a long while and was generally pretty happy with it, I'd have to say the service you get from a dealer has more to do with the individual dealer and not so much with how much you spend on the spa.

I've seen a spa at Costco. It was a Hydro spa and was pretty much the Desire although it had a few more jets.

http://www.hydrospa.com/spas/sterlingleisure_desire.htm

They sell it for $4800-$4900. It had virtually no insulation and you could slide you fingers between the shell and cabinet right through to the inside. The structural build quality seemed below par but it was strong enough to be sat on it's side because that's how it comes shipped on the pallet. It could have been only cosmetic and not structural. I believe the jets, pumps, and shell were similar to what you'd find on a midrange dealer spa. Many of the air valves on the display model were broken off though, which is disconcerting. It seemed to me that it was a high "percieved value" offering. It seemed to give you alot for your money although the build quality was poor. Costco doesn't make the spa though and they sell spas from several other different manufacturers. They have some from Keys Backyard(I think), Infinity, and even a Hot Springs model. Whether the other models are similarly built as the 2 I saw would depend on the manufacturer.

One of the biggest differences I've seen between the Costco and Dealer models has been full foam. From my experience and some talking to a repairman this is what I believe.

Full foam is more difficult to find and fix leaks, but, with the foam holding all the hoses from vibrating over a long period it keeps the joints from flexing and thereby prevents some leaks.

Full foam insulates better, obviously, but insulation on the sides and bottom are far less important than insulation on the top.

Full foam can just as easily hide poor build quality as indicate high build quality. Because of the difficulty of repair, I would expect manufacturers would do a better job if it were going to be foamed.

I would be very interested in knowing how much difference it made in energy costs.

As far as the costs to build the spa, I don't believe there is more than $1000 difference in material costs between similar Costco and dealer spas, probably less. The costs to run a spa store are horrific compared to simply drop shipping them as Costco does. Costco doesn't even store them, they are shipped from the manufacturer. All a dealer can offer in return for the higher price is quality, knowledge, and service.

[/quote

I would say the cost is in the neighborhood of $500 wholesale.

If the spa breaks down six times and has the pumps changed or the control box, it is still cheaper viable to get the Costco and pay full price for repairs from any independent service company.

[Roger]

If the spa breaks down six times and has the pumps changed or the control box, it is still cheaper viable to get the Costco and pay full price for repairs from any independent service company.

And I would be more than happy at 75 per hr. to get you to 6-8 G's for that 3-4 G tub.

[New NW tub owner]

To Roger:

I can't quote your comments anymore directly because the forum seems to be in the process of booting me out and is preventing me from quoting with the message: "

THE FOLLOWING ERROR(S) WERE FOUND

You have posted more than the allowed number of quoted blocks of text"

What Roger said was: "Because of the cost of the unit I would have to say that there are some corners cut in the composition of resins and the skill of the work force manufacturing the tub. Which would lead to some defieciencys but would not be detrimental in the longevity of the shell. Because very very few tubs last as long as the shell and alot of manufacturers don't even use fiberglass backed acrylic. But you don't want my opinion so why are you asking? The Arctic shell for example (which is considered high end) will hold water without a frame, will the hydro shell?

Are the frame members that hold up that shell of your Costco unit stapled to each other or screwed? What is the exact dimension of the uprights?"

My reply follows:

The fiberglass and resins on my tub's shell look first rate and as good or better than anyone else's tubs. I think the shell is one of the major advantages that Hydrospa has over most of the other tubs out there. Hydrospa says they use a vacuum forming process. Whatever they use, it does a really good job and makes a nice finished surface that is easy to sanitize and keep clean. When you're trying to control bacterial growth, the surface is very important. (As a side note, people who make stainless steel food handling equipment spend a lot of effort to finish the surface of all metal parts exposed to food for just that reason). The shell on my costco PE2 tub by Hydrospa is supported by a kind of pedestal structure underneath so the skirt and its supports are not very important for structural strength. I would imagine that it would hold water without a frame but I don't have any way to test that, obviously. However, everything is very sturdy and well put together and create a very solid final assembly such that I've never even paid any attention to that. When I installed the tub, we moved it in on its side on a cart and the entire assembly was very solid and rigid so whatever was done is good. I'm not sure how the frame members that hold up the tub are configured as it's been a while since I looked in there. If my memory is correct, they are kind of a fiberglass over wood assembly.

You bring up another interesting point, what is the thing that ends the life of the tub? You say it is rarely the shell. My opinion is that it is the shell if the shell fails while the tub is relatively youngg, say 10 years or less. After that, it is probably the cost of upgrading the features to be competitive with a new tub. I see old tubs available for essentially free that still work but no one wants them because they have a small heater and maybe 2 or 3 jets, no light, no cover, failing skirt, and old unreliable controls so they get junked. It's hardly worth spending 3 or 4 grand to fix and upgrade an old tub if you can get a new costco tub for 4 or 5 grand. .

[Roger]

There was a bunch of stuff in your post that we finaly have come to an agreement on. Your tub is strong enough, yep, as strong as a more expensive tub, probably not. We can leave that alone. After 15-20 years with the same tub, repairable or not most people want a new one. After 5-6 years if it is alot of trouble, most get rid of there tub and don't get another, whether it's a 8000 dollar tub or a 4000 dollar tub.

Your not getting booted, most of us are having that same quote problem. I have informed the moderation team. Maybe we are in a secret society and we are on double secret probation.