Constantly High Ph

[makailey1]

Hi everyone,

I hope someone can help me with this frustrating problem. New hot tub owner for six weeks, and i am using Bromine tablets in a floater. When i get the water tested by the dealer, i am told that all the readings are perfect except the PH is 8.2-8.4. Everyday i am throwing 1 tablespoon of PH minus in the tub to drop the PH to 7.6, but 12 hours later it's always back up to 8.2. I've been playing this game now for a month. My TA is always raised and i keep it around 110, the dealer just tells me that because i have an ozonator that runs 24 hours, i will always have a high PH and not to worry about it.

Any help would be apreciated if someone has had the same problem? There statement defies everything i've read on the web. Anyone know if there could be something in the water that is causing the PH to always rise back up, even without us using the tub.

Just for reference, BR is 5ppm, TA is 110, CH is 150, acid is 5, and TDS is 600....as usual PH is 8.2

thanks chris

[mjs]

A quick question: after adding pH minus, do you retest 30 minutes later to confirm the new pH, or are you guessing from the previous pH reading and dosage?

If you're not retesting, I'd guess the pH is higher than 8.2; as most test kits just "max out" around this pH, hence you're not really lowering the pH as much as you think.

If you are retesting and confirming the pH is lowered to 7.6, then I'm stumped

[makailey1]

A quick question: after adding pH minus, do you retest 30 minutes later to confirm the new pH, or are you guessing from the previous pH reading and dosage?

If you're not retesting, I'd guess the pH is higher than 8.2; as most test kits just "max out" around this pH, hence you're not really lowering the pH as much as you think.

If you are retesting and confirming the pH is lowered to 7.6, then I'm stumped

No unfortunately i am retesting the PH about one hour later and getting the 7.6 reading, then it shoots back up to 8.2 the next morning. I am also using dpd reagent test as well as test strips for TA.

[Roger]

No unfortunately i am retesting the PH about one hour later and getting the 7.6 reading, then it shoots back up to 8.2 the next morning. I am also using dpd reagent test as well as test strips for TA.

Try lowering it to 7.0-7.2, increase the amount of PH down. What is the PH reading of your brand of Bromine?

[makailey1]

Try lowering it to 7.0-7.2, increase the amount of PH down. What is the PH reading of your brand of Bromine?

I am using Beachcomber products, and they say the PH is really low, but i don't know what it is.

I put four tablespoons of PH minus in today and got the PH down to 7.2 and TA too 80, let's see if this works. thanks roger

chris

[mjs]

I don't know if the use of Bromine versus Chlorine has any effect, but its commonly accepted that adding pH minus reduces total alkalinity in addition to lowering pH, while adding TA+ increased pH.

I wish there was a product that raised TA with little to ne effect on pH.

Another note: most literature states I should have TA in the 80 - 120 range; with one exception: the instructions with my "HTH" test kit says TA should be 80-120 for "stabilized sanitizer", and 60-100 for "not stabilized sanitizer".

I thought the term "stabilized" applied promarily to chlorine, and not bromine. Am I correct?, and what do most recommend for TA when using bromine as sanitizer?

[makailey1]

I don't know if the use of Bromine versus Chlorine has any effect, but its commonly accepted that adding pH minus reduces total alkalinity in addition to lowering pH, while adding TA+ increased pH.

I wish there was a product that raised TA with little to ne effect on pH.

Another note: most literature states I should have TA in the 80 - 120 range; with one exception: the instructions with my "HTH" test kit says TA should be 80-120 for "stabilized sanitizer", and 60-100 for "not stabilized sanitizer".

I thought the term "stabilized" applied promarily to chlorine, and not bromine. Am I correct?, and what do most recommend for TA when using bromine as sanitizer?

that's a good question, what are you using in your tub.

[Canadian Kahuna]

I don't know if the use of Bromine versus Chlorine has any effect, but its commonly accepted that adding pH minus reduces total alkalinity in addition to lowering pH, while adding TA+ increased pH.

I wish there was a product that raised TA with little to ne effect on pH.

Another note: most literature states I should have TA in the 80 - 120 range; with one exception: the instructions with my "HTH" test kit says TA should be 80-120 for "stabilized sanitizer", and 60-100 for "not stabilized sanitizer".

I thought the term "stabilized" applied promarily to chlorine, and not bromine. Am I correct?, and what do most recommend for TA when using bromine as sanitizer?

Plain baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) will raise your TA with less effect on pH than your typical alkalinity increaser, which is usually sodium carbonate. I never understood this, but talked to my sister (who is a chemist) and asked her, she informed me that sodium carbonate will have more of a reaction with chemicals in the tub and cause the pH to go up more than that of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda).

[Canadian Kahuna]

One other note on the alkalinity (pH level) in tubs. Most municipalities add calcium to our drinking water as a rust inhibitor for the pipes. There doesn't seem to be a problem with it where i live (low calcium, minimal). Some dealers recommend adding calcium to tubs, but i was also told (by my dealer, and confirmed by a chemist) that keeping a slightly higher pH (a little to the alkaline side) will also help keep corrosion down. The problem with calcium is that it tends to precipitate at higher temperatures (comes out of the water, can collect on pipes and clog, etc). So personally, i don't add any calcium, just keep my pH up just a tad higher than normal, but not too much higher or you can affect the effectiveness of your sanitizer. Any other thoughts from anyone else on this matter?

[mjs]

Regarding Calcium and Hardness: My water supply is extremely soft, and on testing it's virtually zero hardness.

Overall I have two concerns with my spa chelistry:

1. I must be very diligent to keep pH down and TA up,

and

2. Foaming.

Foaming is the reason I change my spa water every ~6 weeks, even though we use minimal detergent washing bathing suits and I "triple rinse" them. Someone on this forum (can't recall who" mentioned hardness, and that foaming is more of a problem with soft water than hard, so I should consider adding Ca.

I've done this "two cycles" now; and I still get foaming at around week 4. Defoamers help, but verey little.

Anyway, that's "my take" on hardness,

[Brulan1]

Regarding Calcium and Hardness: My water supply is extremely soft, and on testing it's virtually zero hardness.

Overall I have two concerns with my spa chelistry:

1. I must be very diligent to keep pH down and TA up,

and

2. Foaming.

Foaming is the reason I change my spa water every ~6 weeks, even though we use minimal detergent washing bathing suits and I "triple rinse" them. Someone on this forum (can't recall who" mentioned hardness, and that foaming is more of a problem with soft water than hard, so I should consider adding Ca.

I've done this "two cycles" now; and I still get foaming at around week 4. Defoamers help, but verey little.

Anyway, that's "my take" on hardness,

Are you testing the ph with test strips, phenol red, or a buffer? Try a buffer for more accurate.

[mjs]

I test primarily with a phenol red titration. I know that if bromine is real high this method will provide false readings, but it seems more accurate than the strips, I don't have to use my aging eyes to determine a precise color, and I don't mind titration (having started off life as a chemist).

Re. a "beffer test", can you e a little more specific? I don't recall this type of pH test.

[Canadian Kahuna]

Have you tried one of those "scum balls" for your foaming problems? It could be the foaming is being caused by body oils, shampoos, hair products, etc getting into your water as well, and a "scum ball" will collect a lot of these. A friend of mine had problems with foaming and tried all different types of chemicals, and found the ball really worked where the chems didn't.

[mjs]

I tried two brands of scum balls - didn't seem to do anything (I guess I should be happy my spa is so clean - other than the foaming, that is).

[Brulan1]

I tried two brands of scum balls - didn't seem to do anything (I guess I should be happy my spa is so clean - other than the foaming, that is).

A natural enzyme called spa perfect helps get that debris out to prevent that foam