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Posted

Is there one particular reason you want that spa from Costco? Have you asked who will set up your spa Who will teach you about water chemistry Will there be someone at Costco to answer your questions about your spa in an emergency Fri or Sat night.

These are things to look at b4 purchasing are you able to test the spa b4 you buy it.

Costco and Home Depot are my best salesman when consumers finally answer all of these questions.

Where abouts are you in Canada?

Posted

We are eastern Ontario, Canada. We looked at purchasing an Elite Premium 85 but then saw the Infinity at Costco, similar looking spas with a $5k difference. Do we go full foam or not? Our winters get cold here, but I am assured by the seller that the unit without the foam is ok for our winters. They sell lots of them so why am I so confused??? So many questions.

Posted

He assured you that it would be ok for an Ontario winter It will be ok to run without issues if you dont mind paying around $50-$60 a month for hydro in the winter months. People at costco really have no idea what they are talking about they will say yes to your every question it doesnt really matter to them for the simple fact they wont be dealing with you once you buy the spa and any issues come up. In eastern On. there are quite a few good dealers who have spas in your price range and will give the right info on what you are looking for. A reputable dealer will not bash the competition rather explain the benefits of their respected tubs.

Posted

We are looking at purchasing this tub from Costco Canada, has anyone had experience with this one. Any advice would be appreciated.

No experience with Costco spas, but alot of experience with Costco and have yet to complain about the quality of their merchandise or return policy if not satisfied. We had other brands of spas in Alaska for 17 years, and never had unreasonable heating costs. However, we did set our tubs on sheets of insulation foam board to cut heat loss under the tubs. As I recall, our tub heating bills ranged between $20 and $30 a month year around. We had to move the tubs from the freight truck with the help of some friends, a couple of furniture dollies, and two sheets of plywood to roll the tub on around to the back of the house. We had to arrange for the 220 V wiring and GFCI/disconnect box for the spa, but that will likely be your responsibility, anyway. We seldom had problems with the tubs, but the dealer who sold us the tubs was in Seattle and very willing to send us the parts that we found easy to install ourselves. If there is a substantial savings for a tub from Costco that has the features you want, I would not hesitate purchasing it. Good luck.

Posted

He assured you that it would be ok for an Ontario winter It will be ok to run without issues if you dont mind paying around $50-$60 a month for hydro in the winter months. People at costco really have no idea what they are talking about they will say yes to your every question it doesnt really matter to them for the simple fact they wont be dealing with you once you buy the spa and any issues come up. In eastern On. there are quite a few good dealers who have spas in your price range and will give the right info on what you are looking for. A reputable dealer will not bash the competition rather explain the benefits of their respected tubs.

As a recent first time tub buyer on a budget, I tend to agree with Pathfinder. We're north of Montreal, and were set to buy an Infinity tub from Costco based on price, extras, lots of jets and some really bad/sleazy local dealer experiences. Then by chance we went to another dealer who was fantastic. For $5000 we got A LOT of extras, better warranty, full installation but less jets and no bells or whistles. We don't have the tub yet, but we do feel better now that we bought one from a place we can get service and support very easily and no worries about how to get it in our backyard. Two things I'll mention that I discovered when doing my research:

1. Waterfalls are great and I really wanted one, but apparently you need a full time circulation pump in your spa if you want it to run when the jets are off (which is what I wanted), but none of the costco tubs appear to have one.

2. The number of jets in the Infinity tubs seem high for the size of motor(s) and many of the jets appear to be much smaller than other tubs including the one we bought. It's hard to tell from the photos though.

Perhaps some of the experts here can respond to my 2 points above and add or correct anything if I'm wrong. All that said, I think Costco is a great option if you don't have any dealers locally you're comfortable with. No risk at all, minus the return shipping cost and labour, because you can take it back to any local Costco store should you not like it for any reason.

Good luck and let us know what you decide!

Posted

2. The number of jets in the Infinity tubs seem high for the size of motor(s) and many of the jets appear to be much smaller than other tubs including the one we bought. It's hard to tell from the photos though.

...

Perhaps some of the experts here can respond to my 2 points above and add...

To elaborate a little bit on alexmon comment...

The number of jets a spa has is almost meaningless. It is more about the proper placement of the jets (where they hit you), the type of jets, and the proper amount of presure for the jets. I have wet tested spas with half as many jets that felt much better. The only thing I can say is wet test, then wet test, and then wet test some more.

Posted

To elaborate a little bit on alexmon comment...

The number of jets a spa has is almost meaningless. It is more about the proper placement of the jets (where they hit you), the type of jets, and the proper amount of presure for the jets. I have wet tested spas with half as many jets that felt much better. The only thing I can say is wet test, then wet test, and then wet test some more.

Thanks for clarifying my post egbert! I really thought the number of jets should be relative to the size of the motor(s). Sure makes it harder to compare specs!

Posted

Thanks for clarifying my post egbert! I really thought the number of jets should be relative to the size of the motor(s). Sure makes it harder to compare specs!

The problem with comparing the motor GPM and the number of jets is the plumbing. A poorly plumbed spa can have a larger pump but still deliver less to the jets.

Posted

As a recent first time tub buyer on a budget, I tend to agree with Pathfinder. We're north of Montreal, and were set to buy an Infinity tub from Costco based on price, extras, lots of jets and some really bad/sleazy local dealer experiences. Then by chance we went to another dealer who was fantastic. For $5000 we got A LOT of extras, better warranty, full installation but less jets and no bells or whistles. We don't have the tub yet, but we do feel better now that we bought one from a place we can get service and support very easily and no worries about how to get it in our backyard. Two things I'll mention that I discovered when doing my research:

1. Waterfalls are great and I really wanted one, but apparently you need a full time circulation pump in your spa if you want it to run when the jets are off (which is what I wanted), but none of the costco tubs appear to have one.

2. The number of jets in the Infinity tubs seem high for the size of motor(s) and many of the jets appear to be much smaller than other tubs including the one we bought. It's hard to tell from the photos though.

Perhaps some of the experts here can respond to my 2 points above and add or correct anything if I'm wrong. All that said, I think Costco is a great option if you don't have any dealers locally you're comfortable with. No risk at all, minus the return shipping cost and labour, because you can take it back to any local Costco store should you not like it for any reason.

Good luck and let us know what you decide!

I read your post, you bought an Elite model, but we are concerned with no full foam for our canadian winters. We actually almost purchased a Elite Premium 85 this weekend but have since changed our minds because of the no full foam, we are thinking full foam is the better way to go. But still not completely sure and very confused.

Posted

I read your post, you bought an Elite model, but we are concerned with no full foam for our canadian winters. We actually almost purchased a Elite Premium 85 this weekend but have since changed our minds because of the no full foam, we are thinking full foam is the better way to go. But still not completely sure and very confused.

Yes, I understand your concern as it does get COLD; this past winter was the worst I've experienced in the 7 years we've lived here!! As I mentioned in my other post, we'll be closing our spa from Nov - Apr so the insulation wasn't as much of a concern for us and we figure we can add insulation later if we change our minds. I'm not sure that the Costco tubs have full foam either though as we weren't able to inspect one in person, but there is an Ebay vendor that sells the Infinity spas, and they have a lot more information about the spa construction on on their sales pages, though it still appears to be the same type of non-full foam insulation as the Elite line. Friends of ours have a 15 year old non full foam tub (can't remember the brand) that they run here all year, and they figure it costs them $30 per month in warmer months (not bad) and $50-60 in winter which I think is expensive. In 15 years, they've had to replace the pump twice and the heater once. Of course I suspect that lower end tubs were better made 15 years ago, but I could be wrong!

I COMPLETELY sympathize with your confusion, because even though we bought a tub, we still don't feel we know a lot more than when we started or investigated everything that we should have! However, we just resigned ourselves to the fact that we absolutely weren't going to get a tub with full foam and top notch parts with our budget, and that any tub we bought wasn't going to have everything the experts recommend. Based on the tub prices here, we would have had to hit the 8k mark to get into a basic remimum brand spa, which was too much considering I want to redo my kitchen this summer too! :D So, we compromised!

Also, another Poster in Ontario told me about a line he sells called Aqua Select that seem to be in the 5k+ range and I'm not sure where you are in Eastern Ont., but the spas look very nice and they have a showroom in Gatineau. May be another option for you to check out too.

Posted

Full Foam versus Thermal (non Full Foam) Both ways of insulating a spa work well as long as these things are considered. The Thermal style must be a top quality thermal style of tub. As long as the cabinet air space stays as close to air tight as possible your thermal barrier will remain intact and function as it is designed. The warmth from the pumps during filtration is designed to become your R-Factor. Now this only holds true during filtration, and during that run time your R-Factor is such that you will almost eliminate heat loss from the sides and bottom. But this is only during run times, if you filter for 4 hours a day then 20 hours you have a reduced R-factor, if you filter for 6 and so on. It leaves the majority of the day with a reduced R-Factor. I would actualy over filter with this style of insulation, which creates more wear and tear on your pumps but kicking on and off also creates more wear and tear so longevity is a wash. Full Foam on the other hand has an increased R-Factor on the vessel and holds heat in the water which reduces cooling. But the plumbing is left to cool below the set point and heating is required to circulate this cold water from the plumbing.

So whats the answer, well ultimatly Full Foam with a 24/7 circulation pump that uses the power of a light bulb, to move the water in the plumbing and heat when required would seem to be as effiecient as you could get. Or.......a bigger more power hungry circulation pump on the Thermal Pane style that would get warm enough to eliminate or minumize heater use to the bare minumum.

Problem is most thermal style tubs especialy the bargin ones do not use a circulation pump so your R-Factor is fine during filtration but only 4-6 hours is required leaving your sides and bottom vunerable for the majority of every day. You could filter more but that causes undue wear and tear on your pump and uses more power. So any savings is gone. Some Full Foam tubs don't have circ pumps also, leaving the plumbing vunerable to cooling causing heater use, again using more power. Whats the answer again?

Buy a quality tub in either style of insulation and it will be designed to run as effiecient as possible. But you won't get one from your local big box store.

Or there are a couple out there that use both foam applied to the right places and the right thichnesses to allow heat transfer during run times, or even with a larger circ pump and yet hold heat into the vessel.

Cover. IMO most of your heat loss is from the top as heat rises and radiats towards cool, invest in a cover upgrade for colder climates. The big boys in the FF market offer a winter kit for the equipment areas that keeps the heat in the plumbing and utilizes what the circ pump generates to help keep the equipment bay warm and toasty. The big boys in TP offer circ pumps also to keep that R-Factor high enough to virtuly eliminate heat loss from the sides. But they are NOT available at your local big box stores.

If you want a bargin tub you will comprimise in effiecency but if you buy a good bargin tub that comprimise at a few dollars to 8-10 a month will hardly offset the double price tag of a high end tub over the life of the tub.

Now your more confused.

Posted

Full Foam versus Thermal (non Full Foam) Both ways of insulating a spa work well as long as these things are considered. The Thermal style must be a top quality thermal style of tub. As long as the cabinet air space stays as close to air tight as possible your thermal barrier will remain intact and function as it is designed. The warmth from the pumps during filtration is designed to become your R-Factor. Now this only holds true during filtration, and during that run time your R-Factor is such that you will almost eliminate heat loss from the sides and bottom. But this is only during run times, if you filter for 4 hours a day then 20 hours you have a reduced R-factor, if you filter for 6 and so on. It leaves the majority of the day with a reduced R-Factor. I would actualy over filter with this style of insulation, which creates more wear and tear on your pumps but kicking on and off also creates more wear and tear so longevity is a wash. Full Foam on the other hand has an increased R-Factor on the vessel and holds heat in the water which reduces cooling. But the plumbing is left to cool below the set point and heating is required to circulate this cold water from the plumbing.

So whats the answer, well ultimatly Full Foam with a 24/7 circulation pump that uses the power of a light bulb, to move the water in the plumbing and heat when required would seem to be as effiecient as you could get. Or.......a bigger more power hungry circulation pump on the Thermal Pane style that would get warm enough to eliminate or minumize heater use to the bare minumum.

Problem is most thermal style tubs especialy the bargin ones do not use a circulation pump so your R-Factor is fine during filtration but only 4-6 hours is required leaving your sides and bottom vunerable for the majority of every day. You could filter more but that causes undue wear and tear on your pump and uses more power. So any savings is gone. Some Full Foam tubs don't have circ pumps also, leaving the plumbing vunerable to cooling causing heater use, again using more power. Whats the answer again?

Buy a quality tub in either style of insulation and it will be designed to run as effiecient as possible. But you won't get one from your local big box store.

Or there are a couple out there that use both foam applied to the right places and the right thichnesses to allow heat transfer during run times, or even with a larger circ pump and yet hold heat into the vessel.

Cover. IMO most of your heat loss is from the top as heat rises and radiats towards cool, invest in a cover upgrade for colder climates. The big boys in the FF market offer a winter kit for the equipment areas that keeps the heat in the plumbing and utilizes what the circ pump generates to help keep the equipment bay warm and toasty. The big boys in TP offer circ pumps also to keep that R-Factor high enough to virtuly eliminate heat loss from the sides. But they are NOT available at your local big box stores.

If you want a bargin tub you will comprimise in effiecency but if you buy a good bargin tub that comprimise at a few dollars to 8-10 a month will hardly offset the double price tag of a high end tub over the life of the tub.

Now your more confused.

Thanks for the information, I have learned more here then out there. Thanks!!!

Posted

Just to clarify Alexmom's post Aquaselect is a buying group in Que. The Brand is Pacific Spas the tub in question is a Saturna which is in the price range you are looking in check out the dealer locator at pacificspas.ca There should be a couple dealers near you considering one of our distribution centres is in Georgetown.

Posted

Full Foam versus Thermal (non Full Foam) Both ways of insulating a spa work well as long as these things are considered. The Thermal style must be a top quality thermal style of tub. As long as the cabinet air space stays as close to air tight as possible your thermal barrier will remain intact and function as it is designed. The warmth from the pumps during filtration is designed to become your R-Factor. Now this only holds true during filtration, and during that run time your R-Factor is such that you will almost eliminate heat loss from the sides and bottom. But this is only during run times, if you filter for 4 hours a day then 20 hours you have a reduced R-factor, if you filter for 6 and so on. It leaves the majority of the day with a reduced R-Factor. I would actualy over filter with this style of insulation, which creates more wear and tear on your pumps but kicking on and off also creates more wear and tear so longevity is a wash. Full Foam on the other hand has an increased R-Factor on the vessel and holds heat in the water which reduces cooling. But the plumbing is left to cool below the set point and heating is required to circulate this cold water from the plumbing.

You have some misinformation here. With the 'thermal' design, it is not necessary for the cabinet to be 'airtight' but just reasonably sealed since the insulating comes from having an enclosed air space. Some heat is lost as a small amount of warmer air exits but it isn't significant unless your cabinet has gaping holes and the wind is blowing. The R factor is created by the thermal resistance of (in order) the tub shell thickness, the foam sprayed on the backside of the shell, the air space, the insulation on the enclosure panels, and the enclosure panels themselves. In contrast, with the 'full foam' design, the R factor is created entirely by the tub shell and the thickness of the foam surrounding the shell.

The circulation pump has no effect on the tub R value for either type of design. With the thermal design, the pumps and equipment are enclosed within the thermal space between the shell and the enclosure and the heat they throw off is captured and contributes to keeping the water warm so perhaps that's what you meant. The heat from the jet pumps is significant but they typically only operate for a few hours a week so their overall contribution is not significant. The heat from the circulation pump is much smaller (<50 watts on my tub) and is not significant regardless of whether it's operating or not.

So which design is better for heat loss? If the full foam tub is never used, it will have the lowest energy cost. However, the pipiing connecting the jets and jet pumps is probably not insulated as well and the warm water in the jet piping will lose much of its heat between uses which is a significant heat loss. Say there's 20 gallons in all of the piping and it cools from 100 to 50 between uses, that's a heat loss of 1.2 kwh with every use so if you use the tub 2x per day, that's a lot of heat loss. The thermal design has all of the tubing and piping in the thermal space so it doesn't cool between uses as much and is also better protected against freezing and thermal expansion and contraction (significant with thermoplastics). The other significant advantage to the thermal design is that it is much easier to repair leaks and such.

Posted

You have some misinformation here. With the 'thermal' design, it is not necessary for the cabinet to be 'airtight' but just reasonably sealed since the insulating comes from having an enclosed air space. Some heat is lost as a small amount of warmer air exits but it isn't significant unless your cabinet has gaping holes and the wind is blowing. The R factor is created by the thermal resistance of (in order) the tub shell thickness, the foam sprayed on the backside of the shell, the air space, the insulation on the enclosure panels, and the enclosure panels themselves. In contrast, with the 'full foam' design, the R factor is created entirely by the tub shell and the thickness of the foam surrounding the shell.

The circulation pump has no effect on the tub R value for either type of design. With the thermal design, the pumps and equipment are enclosed within the thermal space between the shell and the enclosure and the heat they throw off is captured and contributes to keeping the water warm so perhaps that's what you meant. The heat from the jet pumps is significant but they typically only operate for a few hours a week so their overall contribution is not significant. The heat from the circulation pump is much smaller (<50 watts on my tub) and is not significant regardless of whether it's operating or not.

So which design is better for heat loss? If the full foam tub is never used, it will have the lowest energy cost. However, the pipiing connecting the jets and jet pumps is probably not insulated as well and the warm water in the jet piping will lose much of its heat between uses which is a significant heat loss. Say there's 20 gallons in all of the piping and it cools from 100 to 50 between uses, that's a heat loss of 1.2 kwh with every use so if you use the tub 2x per day, that's a lot of heat loss. The thermal design has all of the tubing and piping in the thermal space so it doesn't cool between uses as much and is also better protected against freezing and thermal expansion and contraction (significant with thermoplastics). The other significant advantage to the thermal design is that it is much easier to repair leaks and such.

Posted

You have some misinformation here. With the 'thermal' design, it is not necessary for the cabinet to be 'airtight' but just reasonably sealed since the insulating comes from having an enclosed air space. Some heat is lost as a small amount of warmer air exits but it isn't significant unless your cabinet has gaping holes and the wind is blowing. The R factor is created by the thermal resistance of (in order) the tub shell thickness, the foam sprayed on the backside of the shell, the air space, the insulation on the enclosure panels, and the enclosure panels themselves. In contrast, with the 'full foam' design, the R factor is created entirely by the tub shell and the thickness of the foam surrounding the shell.

The circulation pump has no effect on the tub R value for either type of design. With the thermal design, the pumps and equipment are enclosed within the thermal space between the shell and the enclosure and the heat they throw off is captured and contributes to keeping the water warm so perhaps that's what you meant. The heat from the jet pumps is significant but they typically only operate for a few hours a week so their overall contribution is not significant. The heat from the circulation pump is much smaller (<50 watts on my tub) and is not significant regardless of whether it's operating or not.

So which design is better for heat loss? If the full foam tub is never used, it will have the lowest energy cost. However, the pipiing connecting the jets and jet pumps is probably not insulated as well and the warm water in the jet piping will lose much of its heat between uses which is a significant heat loss. Say there's 20 gallons in all of the piping and it cools from 100 to 50 between uses, that's a heat loss of 1.2 kwh with every use so if you use the tub 2x per day, that's a lot of heat loss. The thermal design has all of the tubing and piping in the thermal space so it doesn't cool between uses as much and is also better protected against freezing and thermal expansion and contraction (significant with thermoplastics). The other significant advantage to the thermal design is that it is much easier to repair leaks and such.

Not missinformation. I did say close to airtight, obviously it can't be airtight especialy if it has an air blower. And you need cooling in the summer time. But the closer to airtight you can get in the cold months the better. Heat is going to travel towards cold so keep the cold out. I have done it with dampers that only open when air is called for in the cabinet space (air blower or cooling fan) To conserve on heat/reduce heat loss Arctic does it with vents open all the time. Full foam on say a Hot Spring or Beachcomber has all the plumbing encased in foam except where it imiediatly goes into the pump/s I would say close to a gallon or 2 exposed, this is why I mentioned a winter kit to protect this very small space and yes the circ pump does create extra R-Factor in this small space with the winter kit installed. Is it worth the trouble of installing and removing twice a year, here in Northern Minnesota...... maybe???? If you have a 48 frame circ pump it will create a tremendous r-factor.

The entire point of my post was to say. IF your buying quality, let your backside decide and your comfort level with the price and dealer, NOT the insulation skeem. If your buying budget, investigate more.

The leak issue, I defer to quality, 98-99 percent of my repairs are in the equipment area, neither desing has an advantage there. But several brands are layed out better in that area for ease of repair. Almost a non issue.

  • 3 weeks later...
Posted

From the spaspecialist.com website - most of what he says makes sense to me. I don't think I would buy a full-foam spa.

START QUOTE

Question What is the best insulation used for spas?

Answer The Best insulation for a spa is Thermal Sealed or sometimes called thermal lock, thermal pane or air tight. This method has the maximum amount of efficiency without letting cold air into the spa's equipment area.

(Beware! There are only a few ways to make a true thermally sealed spa. Some manufactures call their spa thermal pane, when actually they are vented and expensive to operate.)

Independent studies done by two universities ( Colorado and Arizona State Universities 1996) have found that using the waste heat generated by the equipment and transferring it into the spa's water is more efficient than filling the spa's cabinet with foam. Here is an excerpt from the report. "a fully insulated spa {full foam} makes no attempt to recover and use waste heat." (Tong and Rogers 1996). "...the performance of an insulating system which makes use of a thermal barrier, generated by waste heat rejected from the motors and pumps, in an enclosed air cavity around the tub is superior to a system which simply insulates the tub directly." Click and Read

(We have seen some fully foamed spa companies attach tubing around the motors to capture some of the spa motor heat. This still a long way from full energy capture!)

When the equipment compartment on any spa is vented, the heat energy of the motors is lost forever. If you use your spa three times a week for one hour; that's one-half hour with the jet pumps on and one half-hour soaking with the low speed filter pump running.

Each 3 BHP/2HP continuous pump (high speed) emits approximately 1504 watts of equivalent heat. With two pumps that is 3008 watts of electrical energy the spa's heater does not have to produce.

3008 watts X 3 hours = 9.024 KWH

If your electric cost is 10 cents per KWH, that is approximately $0.90 per week of lost energy from just the operation of the high speed jet pumps! Add the savings from the low speed filtering, and you are easily saving a buck. That is one reason why true thermal pane spas can save $10 per month less, on the average, to operate than any comparably equipped fully foamed spa. The more you use the spa, the less each use costs you versus. the standard vented fully foamed spa designs.

In many spas some of the heat energy is captured by the warmth in the vented room, but most heat is lost. The more foam between the spa water and the equipment, the more energy is lost. This is called isolated equipment. It is similar to taking your home's heater and putting it outside with all the warm air ducts exposed to the outside cold air.

(For the engineering types; the above take into account the mechanical heat and the frictional heat that all pumps create and the cold air that eliminates that energy. READ )

Exposing the equipment to the outside air through the vents causes thermal stress to the plumbing. The air can be as cold as 10, 20, 30, or 45 degrees F. below zero, and the water inside the pipes is the spa temperature over 100 F. degrees. This can equate to a temperature difference on the plumbing as much as 110 to 145 degrees; cold on the outside and hot on the inside. This stresses the PVC, the glue joints, the unions and valves. Heat expands things, while cold contracts. Hot on the inside and cold on the outside! This is why vented spas develop leaks at a much higher rate compared to thermally sealed spas.

END QUOTE

Posted

START QUOTE

Question What is the best insulation used for spas?

Answer The Best insulation for a spa is Thermal Sealed or sometimes called thermal lock, thermal pane or air tight. This method has the maximum amount of efficiency without letting cold air into the spa's equipment area.

Exposing the equipment to the outside air through the vents causes thermal stress to the plumbing. The air can be as cold as 10, 20, 30, or 45 degrees F. below zero, and the water inside the pipes is the spa temperature over 100 F. degrees. This can equate to a temperature difference on the plumbing as much as 110 to 145 degrees; cold on the outside and hot on the inside. This stresses the PVC, the glue joints, the unions and valves. Heat expands things, while cold contracts. Hot on the inside and cold on the outside! This is why vented spas develop leaks at a much higher rate compared to thermally sealed spas.

END QUOTE

Thank you for a very interesting and informative answer! :rolleyes:

Posted

START QUOTE

Question What is the best insulation used for spas?

Answer The Best insulation for a spa is Thermal Sealed or sometimes called thermal lock, thermal pane or air tight. This method has the maximum amount of efficiency without letting cold air into the spa's equipment area.

Exposing the equipment to the outside air through the vents causes thermal stress to the plumbing. The air can be as cold as 10, 20, 30, or 45 degrees F. below zero, and the water inside the pipes is the spa temperature over 100 F. degrees. This can equate to a temperature difference on the plumbing as much as 110 to 145 degrees; cold on the outside and hot on the inside. This stresses the PVC, the glue joints, the unions and valves. Heat expands things, while cold contracts. Hot on the inside and cold on the outside! This is why vented spas develop leaks at a much higher rate compared to thermally sealed spas.

END QUOTE

Thank you for a very interesting and informative answer! :rolleyes:

Very good Jim, your whole web sites skews the facts to shed a better light on your product. A big ole radiating vessel of hot water will not allow a temperature change of 110-145 degrees in the plumbing. Even with no insulation on the outside wall, and just an outside wall you will never ever see that kind of temp swing inside a cabinet. And you are correct about PVC, in the old days expansion and contraction was a huge issue, but alas we have progressed as a society to PVC and Glues that can withstand huge temperature changes with no detrimental affect on there longevity. Besides...what are all those vents for in the cabinet of your spa's ???

Lets do this, thermally sealed (thermal pane) spas develop leaks faster than FF because there is no support to the plumbing, but 99 percent of all leaks on either type of inulation are in the equipment area so non issue. A well built quality spa will run about the same to operate with either kind of insulation. So when deciding what type of insulation is better for you, first look at the manufacturer of the spa and the comfort on your backside and with the dealer. Then it won't matter.

I know you didn't type this Johnny you just got it from a web site full of articles lies.

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