Is this Frog easy smartchlor cartridge type system a money grab or?

[DYNA962007]

I just bought a new small Aspen Spa, had it for 10 days now, and trying to get used to maintaining it.

Surely there is be a better cheaper way to treat the spa rather than the system that came with it. a Frog @ ease floater that costs between 17-20 bucks per chlorine replacement cartridge EVERY 3-4 weeks for a 400 gal spa? And that is only the Chlorine part of it. The mineral side of it costs another 17-20 bucks and must be replaced roughly every 4 months. That all translates to around 400 bucks a year just for that one thing not to mention, PH, Shock, Alk, etc etc. Gotta be a hack or way around this.

This does seem to be a very good and efficient system though with the mineral/low does chlorine system,

 

[Susanj]

I  use this system and yes it’s expensive but it’s pretty trouble free and works well. It’s the only chlorine I’ve ever used -before this I used a bromine floater and it wasn’t doing as good of a job , especially because my hot tub is in a vacation rental. 
The instructions say to replace the blue mineral cartridge with each refill which is usually 3 to 4 months in a home spa  but at ours we refill more often,  and so it gets expensive.  I am wondering if I can do without the mineral cartridge.

[RDspaguy]

You can always just use chlorine. Read the dichlor/bleach method in the chemistry section.

I am a fan of mineral purifiers. In my experience it definitely helps with water maintenance. It destroys contaminants more slowly than chlorine, true, but it destroys chlorine resistant contaminants and works on most contaminants overnight. So it's like a chlorine back-up that's there working even if your chlorine gets depleted. Not necessary, but nice to have. The minerals do not significantly deplete in the water (unless you often top off or such) so only need replacement with every water change, which is recommended every 3-4 months.

[cranbiz]

On 10/28/2022 at 4:21 PM, DYNA962007 said:

I just bought a new small Aspen Spa. Had it for a week, and trying to get used to maintaining it.

Surely there is be a better cheaper way to treat the spa rather than the system that came with it that costs between 15-20 bucks per replacement cartridge

EVERY 3-4 weeks for a 400 gal spa? Also I am totally confused on how to replace this. It speaks of a silver and blue cartridge, one for mineral, one for the chlorine?

Mine has 2 pieces, a bottom and top that attach to each other and are simple to separate. and that's it. wow, what a mess

Yes, there is a cheaper way. Use dichlor until your CYA gets to 30PPM and then switch to liquid chlorine. 

However, this method does require more work to maintain. You need to have a good test kit, test daily and maintain daily. Many don't want to do this and it you don't, you end up with unhealthy water. You also need to carefully monitor your PH.

I currently use the FROG system in a 325 Gal Spa. I get close to 5 weeks out of a Smartchlor cartridge and 4 months out of a mineral cartridge and go a year on the water change. No issues at all except for being more expensive than liquid chlorine but way more convenient.

It costs for convenience. Only you can tell if it's worth it.

[DYNA962007]

Thanks for al the kind answers. So after reading these comments and reading up on it further, and havg a few days to research and use this system, I have come to a coupe of ideas and thoughts.

* I like the mineral concept, think it makes toms of sense

* the chlorine is ok since the amount is much less needed with the mineral add on part of it.

* I can live with replacing the mineral half of the floater in this Frog @ ease system since its only every 4 months.

* HOWEVER, spending 15-20 bucks for a new Chlor Cartridge every 3-4 weeks is not a happening thing for me.

I need to find a hack or way of making this less expensive.

I saw a YouTube video a day or so ago about a guys who took the Chlorine half apart and installed a new chlorine

tablet in it. The tab seemed to fit perfectly in the container. He snapped it back together and said it was dirt   cheap to just buy a big container of the lose tablets AND he claimed the chlorine composition of the tab is exactly what comes in the new cartridge anyway.

Any thoughts on this?

[cranbiz]

Frog uses Dantochlor which is like unobtainum for the consumer. Lord knows, I have tried to source it.

The problem with the pucks is they are a Trichlor (which is NOT dantochlor) and will add CYA and mess with your CC level. A hot tub is a very different ecosystem from a pool because of the temperature and the volume. 

The pucks are certainly not the same and it you use the Frog test strips, your maintenance will be compromised.

I get the cost issue, it's not cheap. You can switch to dichlor/liquid chlorine and still use the mineral stick. The Nature 2 stick is sold for spa's outside of the Frog system. To switch though, requires you to commit to daily testing and maintenance. If you cannot commit to this, stay with the Frog system.

[DYNA962007]

Hum, this is excellent information and corrects my thinking on the subject. No I do not want to be having that much maintenance so the Frog @ ease system I have is going to need to work until someone comes up with a way to hack it.

It seems like what ALL of us who have this system need now, in the mean time is a less expensive way to buy these cartridges. There simply must be a way to get them at a better price.

[cranbiz]

I did find 2 chemical supply houses that would sell bulk dantochlor. Unfortunately they will not sell to individuals. The Chinese company (Chemexpress) needs a letterhead of a business to process the order so if someone had a business, they could get dantochlor.  1000G is $50 the 2kg size is not published, requires a quote from them. The US based company had even more hoops to jump through.

[Susanj]

My chlorine cartridges only seem to last about 3 weeks,  even without much use of the spa. So ya, it gets expensive!

[cranbiz]

It does depend on the size of the spa. I have a 325 Gal and my recommended setting is 2. That lasts about 5-6 weeks. When I replace the smartchlor, I drop the old one in the filter area (opened up to max) so I make sure I gat all the dantochlor out of it. I'm sure that helps me extend the life of the new cartridge a bit.

[DYNA962007]

55 minutes ago, cranbiz said:

I did find 2 chemical supply houses that would sell bulk dantochlor. Unfortunately they will not sell to individuals. The Chinese company (Chemexpress) needs a letterhead of a business to process the order so if someone had a business, they could get dantochlor.  1000G is $50 the 2kg size is not published, requires a quote from them. The US based company had even more hoops to jump through.

That can be gotten around. Many of us have businesses or can buy through a business. Dl you recall if the price was compelling and would it have been in tablet form to do a direct switch-out?

[DYNA962007]

34 minutes ago, Susanj said:

My chlorine cartridges only seem to last about 3 weeks,  even without much use of the spa. So ya, it gets expensive!

wow yea that's not cool or affordable

[RDspaguy]

25 minutes ago, cranbiz said:

When I replace the smartchlor, I drop the old one in the filter area

Say it ain't so, @cranbiz! Not in the filter well! Concentrated chemicals through your equipment is a bad idea my friend. I've made lots of money from that over the years. Drop it in a bucket of water, run a hose on it, whatever, just not in the filter well or on the shell.

[DYNA962007]

29 minutes ago, cranbiz said:

It does depend on the size of the spa. I have a 325 Gal and my recommended setting is 2. That lasts about 5-6 weeks. When I replace the smartchlor, I drop the old one in the filter area (opened up to max) so I make sure I gat all the dantochlor out of it. I'm sure that helps me extend the life of the new cartridge a bit.

Good plan, what about the mineral side of it, how often and any tricks for that?

[DYNA962007]

3 minutes ago, RDspaguy said:

Say it ain't so, @cranbiz! Not in the filter well! Concentrated chemicals through your equipment is a bad idea my friend. I've made lots of money from that over the years. Drop it in a bucket of water, run a hose on it, whatever, just not in the filter well or on the shell.

How about just letting it continue to float until its used up?

[RDspaguy]

2 minutes ago, DYNA962007 said:

How about just letting it continue to float until its used up?

 

6 minutes ago, RDspaguy said:

whatever, just not in the filter well or on the shell.

 

[cranbiz]

6 minutes ago, DYNA962007 said:

How about just letting it continue to float until its used up?

That works. Mine usually doesn't stay in the filter well and floats all over the tub until I do the shake test and it's empty. As far as the mineral cartridge, Everywhere I read says 4 months it it. So it's changed every 4 months and discarded. I tried to extend the life at first, the water did get a bit funky so I stopped that and now do what King says to do.

[cranbiz]

30 minutes ago, DYNA962007 said:

That can be gotten around. Many of us have businesses or can buy through a business. Dl you recall if the price was compelling and would it have been in tablet form to do a direct switch-out?

I never got around to weighing the full cartridge vs the full cartridge to see what the net contents of dantochlor was to figure out how much was needed. The original stuff is power form, I assumed the supplier version was the same. 1000g is about 2.2 lbs. I suspect that you will get more than 6 cartridges out of that. If so, that drops it to about $6 each and less if you can get more than 6 refills out of 1000g.

[Susanj]

One question- I use a Taylor test kit but the manufacturer of the Frog system told me that for chlorine , at least, I need to use the Frog @Ease test strips, or I’ll get an inaccurate reading. Is this just a marketing thing to sell more test strips? 

[Susanj]

Why do you replace your chlorine cartridge before it’s empty, keeping the old one in the spa for a bit longer? 
 

Because my hot tub is in a vacation rental,  we refill about every 4-6 weeks, so yes, replacing the mineral cartridge each time gets expensive.

I have been buying through Amazon. Has anyone found a less expensive source?

[cranbiz]

20 hours ago, Susanj said:

Why do you replace your chlorine cartridge before it’s empty, keeping the old one in the spa for a bit longer? 
 

Because my hot tub is in a vacation rental,  we refill about every 4-6 weeks, so yes, replacing the mineral cartridge each time gets expensive.

I have been buying through Amazon. Has anyone found a less expensive source?

My experience is when the chlorine cartridge gets to low, the tub starts to get a bit funky. it's almost like the chlorine distribution slows to the point that there isn't enough residual chlorine to properly sanitize the tub. But because it isn't completely empty, I can't just throw it away.

Why are you replacing the mineral cartridge on every fill? It's not used up. Replace it after 12 weeks.

I also use the Taylor kit. I can't get good readings from the test strips, especially on PH and TA, the range of colors isn't enough for me and the fact there is only one shade for chlorine and that I found that it's almost always indicating change the cartridge when the chlorine levels are still in the good range on the Taylor kit. As long as the chlorine level is between .5ppm -1ppm, you are good.

Because the Frog system uses Dantochlor, some of the Taylor tests will be inaccurate, like CC and FC. However, the PH. Chlorine level, CH, TA tests are more accurate with the Taylor kit and I just don't check for FC and CC. CYA of the Frog system should be 0 or close to it. Dantochlor does not add CYA but the Frog kick start does (as it's Dichlor). What CYA Kick Star adds is so small that it's negligible.

I'm sure that King wants to sell more overpriced test strips but they suck IMHO.

I also buy from Amazon. There is not a huge difference in cost between Amazon and my dealer but Amazon is more convenient as my dealer is 90 miles away.

[Susanj]

The manufacturer says to replace the mineral  cartridge every 3 months OR with each fill. So we do it with each fill. 
 

 

[DYNA962007]

NEW Take on this. Of course I 'm still trying to find a way to refill the chlorine cartridge on the Frog Floater since its so easy to open but haven't made much progress on that part yet but.

Let me ask about the mineral side of this. Why do you suppose its such a mystery what's in this mineral cartridge? you cant get anyone tell tell you what's in it, no one talks about how to hack it even though it too can be opened and refilled. Doesn't anyone wonder what's in the so called "mineral" side of it? Minerals are inherently cheap so this might be an economical hack as well. Any ideas??

[waterbear]

1 hour ago, DYNA962007 said:

Why do you suppose its such a mystery what's in this mineral cartridge?

It's not. It's silver chloride in a calcium carbonate matrix. Chalk, limestone, eggshells, gastropod shells, shellfish skeletons and pearls are all calcium carbonate. Silver Chloride is used instead of the silver nitrate/calcium carbonate found in Nature 2 because it will not precipitate when used with bromine and King Technology also makes an array of products for use with bromine such as their original Spa Frog. Here are the SDS for the system:

https://www.kingtechnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/FROG-@ease-Mineral-Cartridge-R3-10242022E3.pdf

https://www.kingtechnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/FROG-@ease-SmartChlor-Cartridge-R3-10242022E3pdf.pdf(

Their chlorine cartridge is a form of chlorine stabilized by DMH ( dimethylhydantoin), 1,3-dichloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin, This is the same chemical that is used to stabilize bromine in bromine tablets. 1,3-dichloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin tests as combined chlorine so you really can't know how much combined chlorine is in your tub vs. active chlorine. This, IMHO, is a disadvantage.(However, the same things occurs with the use of MPS and ozone, which also test as combined chlorine).

Dantochlor (a brand name) is :

1, 3-dichloro-5, 5-dimethylhydantoin 81.1%
1, 3-dichloro-5-ethyl-5-methylhydantoin 16.1%
Inert ingredients 2.8%

Total Available Chlorine, % 68

This does not agree with the SDS for SmartChlor

Here is a link to all of King Technology's SDS for their various products and OEM products.

https://partners.kingtechnology.com/documents-and-downloads/safety-data-sheets/

 

 

[JustALearnin]

I actually started a thread today discussing something similar.  I found this thread afterwards while doing some google searches.  Through some of the information provided here I was able to find out that 2000 Flushes Bleach(not the blue version) is the same actual chemical make up as these SmartChlor Cartridges.  Look up 2000 Flushes Bleach on Amazon, or wherever you can see the front of the box, and look at the chemical composition... exactly the same.

 

Slight correction  here is the list of ingredients... 1.8% different... possibly.  They may just not be listing that 1.8% like the tablets do.

 

2000 FLushes Bleach Tablet (not the blue one):

Bleach Tablet
1,3-Dichloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin 118-52-5 81.1%
1,3-Dichloro-5-ethyl-5-methylhydantoin 89415-87-2 16.1%
Chloro-5-ethyl-5-methylhydantoin Not assigned 1.8%
Non-Hazardous Ingredients Mixture 1.0%