New to me Spa tripping breaker on warmup but not since-Controller?

[homespaguy]

Moved into my house in 2005 and it included a non-operational 1988 Jem 6 person spa.  Replaced the GFCI and the controller with an ACC SmartTouch 1000 to get it running.  Over the last 16 years I replaced 2 covers and 2 pumps, but the controller was fine (I did replace the heater element about a year ago).  About 2 weeks ago I think lightning got the controller.  The GFCI would not set. Heater element was fine.  It had leaks, waterlogged cover, rotten frame, etc.  I decided to get something else rather than fix all of that.  I bought a 2000 LA Spa “Marina”.  It has been sitting for at least a year.  It is a 220V 3-person spa and has a Gecko controller.  99% of the time it is just me using it so a smaller spa is fine.  We have a pool also so it’s spa October to May and pool May to October with very little overlap.

I installed it with a new GFCI.  At first it tripped immediately but I realized I had the ground and neutral swapped at the controller.  Then I got lights on the screen and pump running for a second and shut it off.  So I filled it up and turned it back on.  It went about an hour and a half and tripped the GFCI.  Heater shows 10.2 ohms with 1 leg disconnected from the controller (isolated) and .9Mega Ohms from each terminal to the case.   GFCI did not trip with the 2 hots disconnected from the control box. I had shortened the wires on the unit due to the way it was installed so I had fresh wire on the controller end.  I took about 2” out of the breaker wire ends at this point so I had fresh wire there as well.  I had noticed that the wire was a little corroded when I installed the new GFCI.  Turned it back on and it went another hour or so and tripped again.  Puzzled, I reset it once more and now that it has come up to temp it has been running 10 days continuously without tripping.

So, a few questions: Would you replace the controller?  It’s 20+ years old now.  Was the breaker tripping just a startup issue or is something overheating in the controller?  I really got used to the ACC controls.  I liked the 20 min time instead of 30 min.  I liked the filter method over the Gecko.  I liked that it remembered the set temp if the power blinked. I’m looking at an ACC Epack.  This spa is simple-1 pump, ozonator, light-no blower.  Any recent experience with ACC?  I have nothing but positives to say about the one I had.  If not, what controller is recommended?  I think the 4KW heater should be sufficient for this small spa?

[RDspaguy]

Never been a fan of ACC, so haven't seen their new stuff. I use Balboa for replacement packs.

4kw is enough heater for any spa.

At start-up the heater runs longer than at any other time. This can bring problems to a head. 

At a glance, I'd say unplug your ozone generator and check the size of the wire feeding the spa. If that's good, it's likely the breaker.

[homespaguy]

Ozonator was/is unplugged.  GFCI Breaker is brand new.  Inside the breaker box is clean and dry.  Wire has been feeding a spa since 1988 so I don't think it is a size issue.  I'd have to look to be sure; but I think it is 8GA stranded on the 2 hots, 10 GA stranded on the ground, and 12GA bare solid on the neutral.  Both ends were shortened eventually so I have clean copper at all the connections.  Used it this morning, so going on 11 days running now without tripping.  To me it has to be in the controller, but what would it be?  Strange.

As far as Balboa/ACC, when I got my first spa in 2005 that came with the house it had a Balboa controller.  I could get no help from anyone there for diagnostics.  Someone suggested ACC so I called and talked to them, they answered all my questions so I bought a SmartTouch 1000 pack from them.  Did nothing but run it for 15 years until I had to put a heater in it about a year ago.  Then we had a storm and I think lightning got it.  It's probably repairable with a board and I could use it in my new spa except it is tall, I need a squatty controller to fit.  Probably no better than Balboa but Customer Perception is so important.  Even with the best products if you don't have the Customer Service behind it, you will lose customers.  Curious what about ACC that you don't like?  I am always interested in real-world experience from people who do this stuff daily.

So just for sake of comparison, which Balboa controller would you recommend?  VS300?  I have gotten so used to the ACC control scheme.  Push button twice and it is in high pump, 20 minutes later it stops(with a timer that you can see periodically), push filter and it filters on low speed for 30 min.  When you restart after disconnecting power (or the power blinks) it knows the set temperature.  It's simple.  The Gecko controller I have now is 30 min run, can't see the timer, filters when it wants to, and does not hold a set temp if the power blinks.  I hear it run periodically so I guess it is working OK to filter.  Is the Balboa more friendly?  Thanks!

 

 

[RDspaguy]

8 hours ago, homespaguy said:

Wire has been feeding a spa since 1988 so I don't think it is a size issue. 

Spas can be set for different amp options, and it may very well be a size issue. Is the breaker the same amp rating as the original? 

8 hours ago, homespaguy said:

but I think it is 8GA stranded on the 2 hots, 10 GA stranded on the ground, and 12GA bare solid on the neutral. 

I hope not. The neutral cannot be bare copper, that is the ground. 

The neutral conductor cannot, by code, be smaller than the hots.

#8 wire is rated for 50 amps on runs less than 100ft, but I recommend #6 to avoid nuisance tripping.

8 hours ago, homespaguy said:

To me it has to be in the controller, but what would it be?  Strange.

I have no idea what makes you think that. The "controller", meaning the electronic control system, is low voltage and cannot trip a gfci breaker. The equipment it controls can, and wiring/connections can, and bad breakers. But not controls.

8 hours ago, homespaguy said:

Curious what about ACC that you don't like?  I am always interested in real-world experience from people who do this stuff daily.

I have been in the spa repair business for 26 years. My opinion was formed long ago and influenced by many factors. My only point was that I don't see alot of newer ACC packs, so can't offer an opinion of them. I use balboa. And you are correct, balboa does not have a consumer level technical support. 

Balboa makes many controls, and the one you use depends on the features you want. If you're happy with ACC, stick with them. 

[homespaguy]

The original spa had a 5KW heater and a 1.5hp 2-speed pump as did the ACC pack and same as the current LA Spa and I never had nuisance tripping.  I just don't think wire size is the root issue.  It has a breaker in the garage then probably 125' of #6 to a GFCI by the spa which has probably 12' now from breaker to spa controller.  The new GFCI is a a 50A, same as the one that was there.  From the GFCI box there are 4 wires.  The hots are obviously hots.  Then there is a #10 white wire and a #12 bare wire.  The white wire goes to the GFCI breaker and the bare wire is on the ground/neutral bar along with the white wire that is built into the GFCI breaker.  Sounds like I need to replace the wiring from the GFCI to the spa with some bigger wire since it is not correctly sized.  So at least #8 but you would recommend #6 for the hots and neutral.  What about the ground?  Can it be bare?  What size should it be?  

I am sure you are right about the controller not being able to trip a GFCI, but on the previous spa after the storm I could not get the breaker to stay in with pump unplugged and  heater wires unhooked. The only way it stayed in was unplugging the power to the circuit board(really leaving nothing connected).  I assumed that meant that something on the board was doing it, maybe the power supply transformer? But I did replace it with the new spa since it had probably been struck by lightning-it could have just been weak.

I am just on the fence on whether to replace the controller or not.  On the 1 hand the old controller is 20 years old and I don't like the operating scheme.  New controller gets me familiar operating and a new heater and relays and thermistors and .....so I should be able to go 15-20 years and not worry about it.  But the one there is working so should I mess with it and spend $400 just because I don't like the features?  I will just have to decide.

Thanks for all the advice!

 

[homespaguy]

I always think it nice to see a solution to an issue posted on a web board so here is either an update or a solution depending on how it plays out.

After 18 days of running without tripping the GFCI, I came out yesterday morning to it tripped and it would not go back.  I ordered a new controller because I just don't like or trust this one, but I wanted to see what was wrong-and I hate to drain it because its going to be in the teens here this weekend.  It will likely take 2 weeks for the new one to get here.  So after work, I opened the controller box.  Unhooked the heater, 11 ohms.  OK.  Turned the breaker on, instant trip.  Unplugged the pump.  No trip.  Ah-ha!  I had the pump from my other spa so I put it in and am back to enjoying the spa again.  So I think it was the pump all along that caused the trip after an hour and a half or so of steady pumping.  The new pump is a little bit quieter than the old which is nice.  And it ran at least 2 hours solid without tripping to warm the water from 79 degrees back to 100.