Does anyone use E-Clear?

[sniederb]

Hi, first post here. We've moved into a house with an Endless Pool, sanitized by an E-Clear system (MK-75 sanitizer and ionizer). The previous owner didn't use the pool and didn't maintain it. 

Now it seems we need to replace some parts and get it working again, but we're struggling to contact E-Clear. Also, I've read here and there that their system is more of a hoax than actually working. 

So... do any members here use E-Clear? Is the company still active?

Thanks, Simon 

[RDspaguy]

I am not familiar with them. Couldn't say if it's a hoax, would need more info about it. 

Maybe @waterbearhas heard of them?

[waterbear]

The comp;any is still active. Their products are copper or copper/silver ionizers. Some also include UV. They also produce hydrogen peroxide from the electrolysis of water, which is an oxidizer. In countries that do not allow the use of metals, UV and peroxide without the use of low levels of a fast acting primary sanitizer (such as the US) they also have units that are used with chlorine to comply with the law.

My take on their systems:

The problem is that metal ions have very slow kill times and are not effective against viruses, UV only sanitizes in the chamber where the water interacts with the UV light and there is no residual, and H2O2 is an oxidizer but not a primary sanitizer. Also, H2O2 cannot be used with chlorine as the two destroy each other. In fact, when chlorine levels in a pool or spa need to be lowered, hydrogen peroxide is one of the chemicals that can be used for that purpose (although sodium thiosulfate is a better choice and is the usual ingredient in chlorine reducer products for pools and spas).

The OH and O radicals that they mention on their website might exists in their electrolysis chamber but they are fleeting and quickly recombine into water and the H202 produced breaks down into water and O2. O2 is a stable molecule (unlike ozone O3) and does not sanitize.

Contact information:

http://www.ecleareu.com/

https://www.eclearusa.com/

 

[sniederb]

Very helpful post, thank you @waterbear. We'll talk it over, but I think we might look into alternatives to E-clear. I wonder if there are any good non-chlorine (non-bromine) sanitizers on the market. (We live in a "site of special scientific interest" with no drainage, so a pool full of chlorinated water is something we'd like to avoid)

[RDspaguy]

In my experience, silver ion/ozone and uv/peroxide are effective for 99.9% of the time on a 24/7 circulation system. There is some risk of an issue, and the issues can be quite serious, but few will experience them. On a timed system, not so much. As I recall, endless pools are a timed circulation pump, so the longer it runs the better for ozone/uv.

If your endless pool is stainless steel (like every one I have seen) you should not use chlorine. I would recommend that you install a uv/ozone unit and use h2o2 and a mineral stick. Or better yet, follow the manufacturers recommendations.

[sniederb]

@waterbear, @RDspaguy, we've come across a product called Huwa-San TR-5 (Spa Pool). This seems to be a chlorine-free solution, the only downside per their website is a bit more frequent filter cleaning. Would you happen to have any experience with this? (and to the assumption above, yes, our endless pool is indeed stainless steel) 

Thanks, Simon

[RDspaguy]

Looks good to me, but @waterbearis our chemistry guru. Let's see what he thinks.

[waterbear]

I am not a fan of silver/peroxide systems. Silver has very slow kill times and is not effective against viruses. Also silver, whether introduces through an ionizer or added chemically (usually in the form of silver nitrate) can and does stain and silver staining is next to impossible to remove. My other concern is that the parent company that manufactures Huwa-san (Roam Technology in Belgium) makes no mention of use in pools and spas, they only list it for water features such as fountains and for livestock and agricultural solutions.

[RDspaguy]

They do mention spas in their info thing once. 

[sniederb]

Yeah, it's a bit difficult to navigate their products. There is a "Huwa-San Spa Pool" https://www.safesol.co.uk/product/spa-pool-disinfectant-5-silver-stabilised-hydrogen-peroxide-5-litres/ and a "Huwa-San Pool" https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Huwa-San-chlorine-free-disinfection-hydrogen-peroxide/dp/B06XW4PPFL

[waterbear]

Safesol seems like it might be a UK based distributor or repackager and I find it interesting that when I search for Huwasan Pool I get this link to the manufacturer

https://www.roamtechnology.com/en/products/huwa-san/huwa-san-for-spapool-wellness/

but when I click on it I get a page not found error meaning that Roam Technology has taken it down for some reason. This could be a red flag that they are no longer recommending their product for pool and spa water. Pools and spas needs a fast acting and residual sanitizer and oxidizer. Silver is not fact acting but can be effective if there is a long enough time for it to sanitize. However, a pool or spa constantly has more organic matter and bacteria , fungi, and viruses added with each new bather. so it really does not fill the bill. Peroxide is a fast acting  oxidizer and it will not last that long in the water when an organic load is introduced so constant monitoring is necessary to make sure that there is adequate residual in the water at all times to oxidize the organic matter introduced by each bather.

Bottom line, both silver and copper are effective algacides which allows them to be called biocides but they are not effective as fast kills for bacteria and fungi and ineffective against viruses. They are useful for water treatment applications where the water is in a closed storage tank or container for enough time to sanitize before the water is used such as agricultural uses and water features, which are not constantly having new biological material added as is the situation with a pool or spa, which are "open" systems as opposed to the former which are "closed" systems. Peroxide is an effective oxidizer but not really a residual sanitizer. It it similar to MPS (non chlorine shock) in that respect. Peroxide will oxidizer organics quickly by releasing oxygen and becoming water and therefore, the level needs to be monitored and maintained or you really have noting that will sanitize and oxidize quickly. A

[sniederb]

Thanks @waterbear, your post is again super-informative, I really appreciate it. I've also experienced that finding information reg. Huwa-San is difficult, not sure if their webmaster is just incapable or if, yeah, that's a red flag.

If I may .. could the slow sanitizing effect of silver still be enough for two people using a smallish, private pool? It's really just my wife and me, taking a swim every other day or so. I'm not sure if we need to be concerned about virus contamination, being a married couple. Bacteria and fungi on the other hand are definitely things we want to keep at bay.

[waterbear]

It's your pool and you can do whatever you want. Personally, I would  not because every bather adds fecal matter, urine, and sweat to the water (sweat is almost identical chemically to urine) no matter how clean they THINK they are.This is why fast acting residual oxidizing sanitizer is needed. Your laws in the UK are very different from ours in the US and products like this are not permitted to be sold as primary sanitizers

The risk of water borne illnesses are real. Personally I would not take the chance.
As I initially stated I am not a fan of metal based systems for several reasons.