American Whirlpool - good, bad?

[LynneA]

We've been looking for a few weeks and like several models in Caldera and HotSprings.  We've also looked at American Whirlpool 471 and 481 and they are several thousand $$ less. There's not a lot of chatter about American Whirlpool (Maax who also makes Vita) and what there is isn't super favorable.  What I've found makes them seem like a decent spa. Wondering if the experts can weigh in.

Steel Frame - Maax offers a Lifetime Warranty that says "should it become damaged in the operation of the spa." Not sure if that means if it rusts. In general, what are the factual concerns about the steel frame?

Insulation - they offer "Northern Exposure" insulation. Caldera has Fibercor. Both are removable for servicing the spa. Is one much better than the other considering we're in the Northeast?

No separate 24 hour circulation pump. Is this good, bad or indifferent? 

Balboa & Waterways components. Seems good.

ABS sealed base. Seems good.

 

Any input to help us understand the quality of the product is appreciated. We like the dealers of both the Caldera/Hot Springs and American Whirlpool and both have good reviews. The American whirlpool does use 3rd party techs as they only have 1 while Caldera has a lot of techs and services spas themselves.

[ratchett]

1 hour ago, LynneA said:

Not sure if that means if it rusts. In general, what are the factual concerns about the steel frame?

Yep, you're spot on.  Steel is corrosive and will rust when exposed to water and moisture. As an engineer, using steel in a hottub frame always sounded like a bad idea.   But hey, steel is cheap and cost-effective from a manufacturing standpoint.     The problem is 5-10 years later just out of warranty, you've got a rust buck staining your patio - and it's worse if your spa develops a slow leak somewhere which you don't catch right away.    Also know that screw holes and such will rust out - so removing and reinstalling access panels will become an issue over time. 

(NOTE for anyone curious - they do use what's called "Galvanized Steel" for the framing which is essentially steel dipped in an acid bath - this helps prevent the steel from rusting immediately.  But galvanizing does not make it not 100% rust-proof)
 

1 hour ago, LynneA said:

No separate 24 hour circulation pump. Is this good, bad or indifferent? 

I'm a big fan of circulation pumps, especially when paired with an ozonator to continuously inject O3 into the water.   Additionally I like to enjoy soaking half the time peacefully without the jets running - the circ pump keeps warm water flowing through the vent in the footwell.   Also in the summer time I use the circ pump to help bleed off heat for an hour or two before hopping in to enjoy a lower-temp soak (I use my spa year-round lol).

 

1 hour ago, LynneA said:

Insulation - they offer "Northern Exposure" insulation. Caldera has Fibercor. Both are removable for servicing the spa. Is one much better than the other considering we're in the Northeast?

Not all insulation is created equal.  What's the density and r-value rating? They likely don't provide that info so you really can only go off the energystar power consumption ratings.  Needless to say, the better your spa is insulated - the more energy-efficient your spa will run - a well insulated flagship spa from the 90's is still going to be more energy efficient than a budget grade spa built last year (assuming both have a proper fitting cover in fair condition, natch).

 

1 hour ago, LynneA said:

Any input to help us understand the quality of the product is appreciated. We like the dealers of both the Caldera/Hot Springs and American Whirlpool and both have good reviews. The American whirlpool does use 3rd party techs as they only have 1 while Caldera has a lot of techs and services spas themselves.

Many brands such as Hotspring, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Caldera, Marquis, etc build multiple product tiers to fit every budget.   Currently, the industry average lifespan of a hottub these days seems to be around 7-14 years depending on care & maintenance.  Buying a budget grade spa even from a top name brand might get you towards the bottom end of that average, while a mid-high grade model might be towards the top end of that average lifespan.    Some of the top-tier flagship spas from Jacuzzi, Sundance, Hotspring, Bullfrog etc have started to utilize fully polycarbonate tool-grade framing, and composite cabinet paneling to dramatically increase product lifespans on their flagship spas.  Two or three decades lifespan is not unreasonable if you properly care for the spa (spas have the best lifespan when left filled with balanced/sanitized water and maintained as needed.  Winterizing and draining a spa does risk decreasing lifespans)

I think you should go back and figure out how long you plan to keep this investment and how much care/maintenance you're willing to dedicate to water upkeep.    For me after waiting twenty years for the right time/location to buy, I wanted something built to last decades since we have no intention to leave this home (although my dealer does offer trade-ins on spas they sell.  They'll buy back my 10 year old Hotspring highlife spa to flip/resell in their showroom next to new spas - so I can get a nice upgrade in a few years if I really wanted).    However you may have different plans, maybe you're thinking about maybe selling/moving in five years and leaving the spa behind - in that case I would certainly avoid a top flagship tier spa unless you have a large budget lol.

 

Do you have any Nordic dealers in your region?  Might be worth getting some quotes from them.  I hear they make a really nice quality spa for the price.  They seem to focus more on quality construction over bells & whistles like some other brands.
 

[LynneA]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.  We're 60ish so if a spa gives us 20 yrs, that may be all WE get too!

The AW dealer also offers Nordic. I'll need to look into them.  I haven't seen Sundance yet but will.  Bullfrog doesn't interest me. No Artesian dealers here and Jacuzzi dealer is not too knowledgeable which scares me. 

[ratchett]

3 hours ago, LynneA said:

I haven't seen Sundance yet but will.

Sundance is Jacuzzi's sister brand (funny story, Jacuzzi actually acquired Sundance about twenty years ago right after SD finished building their state of the art manufacturing factory).  They share many components under the hood (even the websites are powered by the same "engine").  

The Sundance 800-series Optima is one of the best blast-your-ass-outta-theseat therapeutic spas in the industry, and this coming from me a Hotspring Highlife fanboy lol

 

3 hours ago, LynneA said:

Bullfrog doesn't interest me.

Lol, same - seats feel too "flat" to accommodate the jetpacks - not as comfortable as other spas I've wet-tested.  It also sounds like their construction quality has slipped as they scaled up operations (they signed a huge contract with Costco last year right before the pandemic, that was a messy situation)

 

3 hours ago, LynneA said:

and Jacuzzi dealer is not too knowledgeable which scares me

Smart move.  The dealer you buy from is usually responsible for warranty labor costs, not the manufacturer.  The dealer you buy from is almost as important as the brand you buy.  My local Jacuzzi dealer was much the same - sales reps on commission telling me what they thought I wanted to hear and not the truth.   Their prices were also ridiculous, but that's what you get shopping with a big-backyard makeover store - hottubs are just one of their big-ticket items for a blank-check backyard overhaul.  

Be sure to ask the dealers more info about their warranty - how many years free call-out diagnostics do they include with the warranty?  Industry average is 6-36 months depending on the dealer, some go up to 60+ free callouts.

 

[LynneA]

Thanks for the info on Jacuzzi/Sundance. I spoke with my local Sundance dealer and will check them out. He told me that Sundance now uses a removable insulation similar to what Caldera is doing. Interesting.  I think the Cameo looks quite nice with wrist jets, calf jets and a captains chair and a stereo for the same price as Caldera Paradise Makena which has none of those. I'll need to see how each of the tubs feels when in it. 

[ratchett]

On 9/10/2021 at 5:04 PM, LynneA said:

I spoke with my local Sundance dealer and will check them out. He told me that Sundance now uses a removable insulation similar to what Caldera is doing. Interesting

Very true.   Removable stuffed fiber insulation has it's pros and cons.    Stuffed fiber insulation does have a lower R-value rating for insulation than full spray foam used on some Flagship models from some brands which means a bit lower energy efficiency - you'll pay a few dollars more per month in electrical operating costs especially in the colder months. 

Although stuffed fiber insulation is MUCH easier to remove/replace when hunting/fixing a leaking spot on the hottub several years from now.  

For me - the question over stuffed fiber insulation verses full spray foam insulation comes down to who you plan to fix/service your spa after the warranty period is over.   Are you the type of person who takes your car back to the dealership for maintenance, or are you a weekend warrior who wants to try fixing almost everything themselves before they ever consider calling out a professional.

Personally, I don't have the time to DIY fixing my own hottub, so I made sure to find a reputable Hotspring dealer who'd been in business for decades with experienced technicians on payroll.  I have faith they will do the repair job right if/when my spa needs major service to fix a slow leak somewhere in the far distant future, and not send out the lowest-bidding random spa tech in town to "see what he can do".   Also note, authorized hottub technicians working on higher end flagship spas often have access to information weekend warriors don't - things like plumbing schematics, software/firmware updates, or service repair documents/kits to fix known issues. 

But hey, I get it - there are also lots of people who want to buy a cheap used spa, fix it up themselves and save big $$ - that's fine too, in that case naturally I'd highly advise staying away from fully spray foam insulated spas haha.

But again, just my $0.02 since these topics do come up often (hopefully someone browsing in the future will stumble across this thread for info lol)

[Pam G]

We are elderly with arthritis issues, so use our tub a lot. We purchased a new American Whirlpool 461 7 months ago to replace our 15 year old Coleman 461 that was damaged in a storm. We were so happy with the quality and therapeutic design of our Coleman (now Maax Spas /American Whirlpool) that we wanted to replace it with the same thing.  We are EXTREMELY disappointed in the American Whirlpool version. The removable insulation is not as good as the old blown foam insulation in our old tub. The Gecko touchscreen controls are a JOKE!  They don't ever work when your hands are wet, which they usually are in a hot tub... right?. They only work sporadically when your hands are dry. The touchscreen has been replaced twice with no improvement in performance. We have been getting the runaround from the dealer & the manufacturer for 6 months.

[THE DUDE]

I am also disappointed with my brand new  881 American Whirlpool. Started it up last week and next day noticed water coming from underneath. There is a 2" street 90 joint that looks like it pulled out when they glued it together. Problem is,no extra pipe to cut it out. Mines only been is service for less than week and I've pulled that insulation out so much it doesn't want to stand back up and tuck in. rolls down like a wore out blanket.  The dealer came and epoxied coated the joint,seems to have stopped it but honestly its a bandaid. Its a major issue to replace because you would have to remove the pump suction pieces, some of the supporting foam for the footwell basically repipe the whole getup. On a brand new spanking tub. I can see this maybe a few years down the road , but not at startup. There is no extra pipe to splice in a replacement tee. I just hope it holds. Couple unions between the tees coming from the footwell and you would have been able to pull it and replace.

As someone mentioned earlier I'm worried about corroding the frame with chlorine in the leaking water. I dried it all up best i could.

I also notice the waterfall , aqaufall setup only runs with pump 2 and you cannot shut it off because they used a diverter valve and not a on/ off stop valve. When your in the lounge , the water fall runs  onto your belly. Tried calling Maax but they will only talk to the dealer. Dealer called and I heard the convo , they told him he may be able to use check valves. ??? This wont work as the flow is only one way already. Comes directly from discharge of pump 2 into the valve tee and the only outlet goes to both sidewall waterfalls. The other run of the tee is capped. So if you want to sit in the seat and look at the waterfall , you have to turn pump 2 on. Wont work with 1 or 3. Dealer didn't know this when I pointed it out to them. Seems wrong to me.

Put a 980 in for my daughter a few years ago and its been good and was the reason for another American Whirlpool.

I've been a UA servicefitter in the mechanical service trades for 40 years , worked on industrial cooling towers, chillers,boilers, pumps, piping and I tried to call Maax but they will only direct me back to the dealer. It isn't the dealers issue, this is all on Maax. They wont let me talk to someone in their tech who maybe can say yeah its right or yeah its a fowl up.

Not blaming my dealer, they didn't build it or design it and they have been responsive on it but they are even being told info that wont work. Shame ,that you spend tens of thousands of dollars on someone's product and the manufacture wont even talk to you.