Low Alkalinity pair with High pH - HELP PLEASE!

[DelcoHotTub5518]

4 hours ago, waterbear said:

Yes, the aeration from the jets will cause pH to rise. Lower TA helps counteract that. If you are using MPS, which is acidic monitor the TA and it drops below 50 ppm bump it back up toe 60 or 70 ppm. I would test TA weekly until you have an idea of how quickly it drops but don't go longer than monthly for testing it.

Thanks for all of the insights! My shock states the ingredients are 38% potassium peroxymonosulfate and 62% "other ingredients...is that the "MPS" you are referring to? 

I generally check my TA levels at least weekly, so that shouldn't be a problem. Thanks again!

[Susanj]

This has gotten off the original topic/ question.

So I never got instructions with the Frog chlorine cartridge and I just found some online .

 

 Use FROG  test strips. The SmartChlor cartridge forms a chlorine reserve that will be inaccurately measured as total chlorine on other test strips.

 

It’s called SmartChlor because it supposedly knows when and how much free chlorine is needed .

 

Shock just once a month with MPS , or whenever you replace the chlorine cartridge.

 

Smart Chlor will maintain the proper chlorine level as long as the pH stays within 7.2 and 7.8. 

[cranbiz]

I have found the Frog test strips notoriously inaccurate vs titration testing. If I adjusted based on the test strips, I would be constantly attempting to adjust pH and over chlorinating my tub based on the recommended levels stated by King.

My test strips (which are new, kept in the sealed container and in a drawer away from the sun) are consistently hard to read, and show inaccurate results vs the Taylor test kit.

I read a strip, which says that the chlorine is low and to change the cartridge (even on one that was just changed a day ago) Based on the instructions for the number of gallons is set at 3, which is actually one number high for a 300 gal tub and it rarely is darker than the good sample, and my pH can be either too low or too high, while mt Taylor kit will show chlorine in the .5-1ppm range, closer to 1 by color and my pH right on at 7.5.

Interesting that you found to shock with MPS once a month or at cartridge change. The instructions that came with my startup kit didn't mention shock at all. My dealer said once a week unless you had a heavy bather load, then to shock after use. Maybe that contributed to the cloudiness of the water, MPS coming out of solution. (I know there is a scientific term for that but I don't exactly know what it is)

[Susanj]

On 8/8/2021 at 7:10 AM, waterbear said:

 

 

On 8/7/2021 at 10:23 AM, Susanj said:

 

So you think you were overshocking with the MPS? 
 

I never liked text strips so maybe I could continue with the drop kit and disregard total chlorine as that will supposedly be inaccurate. 

[cranbiz]

That's what I'm guessing based on what you found. I know I was shocking the tub once a week to start, then more frequently as use got heavier. 

[waterbear]

You can continue to use your Taylor test kit with the Frog@ ease, just test FC and not CC. Also, if you are shocking with MPS, you need to add the Taylor MPS interference remover kit to get accurate chlorine readings.  Not sure if it will work properly when using SmartChlor but you you can contact Taylor directly and ask.

https://www.taylortechnologies.com/en/page/141/eliminating-interference-from-potassium

Better yet, stop the MPS.

FWIW, I could find nothing on King Technology's website or in any of their manuals for Frog@ease that recommends shocking. That is the point of their proprietary chlorine source and, to the best of my knowledge, they are the only ones using dimethlyhydantion stabilized chlorine as a primary sanitizer.

[waterbear]

9 hours ago, cranbiz said:

Maybe that contributed to the cloudiness of the water, MPS coming out of solution. (I know there is a scientific term for that but I don't exactly know what it is)

MPS does not precipitate (scientific term)  out of solution, calcium can, particularly if the TA is also high and pH rises, not uncommon in hot tubs. However, cloudy water ususally means bacterial bloom because of understanitized water which is not uncommon with 'mineral' systems, ionizers, or overstabilized (high CYA) water from exclusive use of dichlor as a chlorine source. Remember, the water to bather ratio in a tub is small so there is not a lot of 'forgiveness' when bather load is high and every person entering the tub adds feces, urine, and sweat (which is chemically similar to urine) to the tub no matter how clean they THINK they are!

[Susanj]

We’d get cloudy water with bromine and no mineral system. 

[Susanj]

I received some answers from King Technology, manufacturer of the Frog.

The Frog @ease test strips only test the pH, total alkalinity, and calcium hardness, and will only show the chlorine level when the SmartChlor cartridge needs replacing. The SmartChlor indicator on the @ease Test Strips just shows when SmartChlor Cartridge is empty.

 

Other test strips may tell you that your free chlorine level is low and that your spa has a high total chlorine level which normally means it’s time to shock. This can be confusing because the @ease system uses a reserve to pull chlorine from when it needs to, so a high total chlorine is completely normal. You can use other test strips but just remember that the free chlorine should be between .5-1 ppm and a high total chlorine is normal.

 

Regarding the shock question, with the @ease system a non-chlorine shock (like FROG Maintain) should be used every 3-4 weeks or whenever you replace the SmartChlor cartridge. We don’t tend to recommend using a chlorine shock after every use because it may increase the free chlorine level (above 1 ppm). However, a non-chlorine like MPS can be used more often if the spa is cloudy or if the spa is getting abnormally high use and a high bather load. 

 

The @ease system does not have CYA in it. So, an increasing CYA level in a spa would come from when CYA has been added and a chlorine shock is used frequently.

 

[waterbear]

1 hour ago, Susanj said:

We’d get cloudy water with bromine and no mineral system. 

If you were using 2 step bromine it means you need to add oxidizer more often. IF 3 step it means the floater is not open enough. In either case it could also mean that you did not create your bromide reserve on filling. It can also mean that the spa needs a decontamination. These are the usual causes assuming the other water parameters are balanced. Basically it means that your bromine levels are either low or depleting quickly and the usual cause is improper water maintenance.

[Susanj]

We used 3 step and opened the floater pretty wide. We always started with a bromide reserve. But in a vacation rental I'm sure people don't play by the rules-showering, no food , drink. They probably have sunscreen and lotion and insect repellant on. It's more like semi public use than private use.