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We have an approximate 20,000 gal inground speckled blue fiberglass pool in Virginia which had the water level lowered for the winter and covered with a solid top.  The water was very clear all winter under the cover.   Leaving the cover on because of the spring pollen and tree debris, we topped it off with about 2 to 3k gal of well water.  This year, we are having problems with brown well water that has been ongoing after heavy rains throughout the fall, winter and into spring.  After topping off the pool, the water turned brown because of the added well water.  At that point, we super shocked it and set the Hayward cartridge filter to run 24/7.  The next day our pool store tested the water and found 18.4 ppm free chlorine, 20 of total chlorine and 1.56 of combined.  After several days circulating with the cover still on, we checked the filter and found it loaded with an orange precipitate.  The filter was then cleaned and reassembled.

Meanwhile, we brought in our water softener tech to give us options on resolving the house brown water problem.  He tested the water, finding undissolved iron at 1.5 ppm which our standard house cartridge filter would not catch.  He recommended an iron filtration system which has not yet been installed.

Yesterday, we removed the cover and discovered the pool water almost clear but with the bottom completely covered with an orange colored powder which we assume was iron that the heavy dose of chlorine precipitated out of the well water that had been added to the pool.  We then proceeded to vacuum the pool but were surprised to find all of the precipitate went through the filter and back into the pool.  Thinking the filter was bad, we replaced it with a fresh one but the problem continued.  Considering the pool filter would be more capable of removing the particles suspended in the water rather than in a heavy concentration through vacuuming the bottom, we continued to vacuum.

This morning, we found the pool a light green color and could not see the bottom on the 3 ft shallow end let alone the 8 ft end.  It looked like an algae bloom.  However, there was no powder or precipitate on the bottom or walls.  What happed to all the cloud of orange that went through the filter and back into the pool the day before?  Did the iron go back into solution? If so,  how?  Is the green color still iron or something else?  The chlorine level is still higher than the test strips will measure so it should have precipitated out some more iron if it was back in solution but it didn't.  The filter showed a slight amount of orange deposit on it but nothing significant.  Also, there was no deposit on the skimmer sock we had installed either.  

Confused, we took two clear glass 1.5 qt vases and filled one with the brownish house well water and one with the pool water and put 2/3 of a cup of bleach in each.  Strangely, the one with pool water looked perfectly clear and not green before adding the bleach.  Within about two hours, we started to see orange powder forming in the bottom of the vase with house water.  The pool water vase also started to show only a very slight covering of orange powder in the bottom but not really anything significant.  Also, the pool water vase had a strange looking thin layer of milky cloud-like material around the middle depth of the water.  So, it would appear the iron did not go back into solution because the heavy dose of bleach in the pool water vase had little effect in precipitating out any more iron.

The question is what should we do now?  After reading more about getting rid of iron in pool water, we are inclined to use a commercial product designed to remove iron but find mixed reviews on them.  Some appear to be better than others but we don't know which to choose.  Any specific suggestions?  Also, we apparently need to wait until the chlorine level gets to zero before using any product like that.  If so, how do we get the chlorine level down quickly?

Some input from knowledgeable forum members would be greatly appreciated regarding what actions we should take at this time.

Thanks in advance,

Glen

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As a follow-up to my first post, the pool water vase after sitting over night had about a one inch accumulation of semi-transparent mucous-like material at the bottom.  When disturbed, it would break into flakes but remain suspended in the water.  Some rising to the top surface.  I have no idea what this is and how the cloud of orange iron precipitate that returned into the pool while vacuuming turned into that material.  Also, this morning there was nothing that had settled out on the pool bottom but the water was still cloudy and light green.   When pulling out a white 5 gal bucket of water from the pool, it looks perfectly clear.  So, perhaps the water color is being influenced by the blue fiberglass pool and the water is really not as green as it appears.

On inspection this morning, the filter did trap a bit of orange material which must be the oxidized iron.  However, the color and clarity of the pool is basically unchanged from two days ago.

We filled another vase with pool water and added a small amount of pool clarifier and immediately began to see flakes of colorless material precipitating out.  So, if there are no suggestions from other forum readers, we are incline to try to clear up the water with clarifiers instead of using iron removing products because the iron that was in the water has already been precipitated out by the heavy shock treatment of two days ago.

Again, any knowledgeable input from the chemical guys would be appreciated.

Glen

 

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On 5/18/2021 at 2:22 PM, glentre said:

Did the iron go back into solution? If so,  how?  Is the green color still iron or something else? 

What is your pH? Most likely the iron went back into solution because your pH was low. The green wate is easily explained. Dissolved iron will color the water yellow and you have a blue pool. Blue and yellow make green. It it also possible that the iron has redeposited on the blue surface as an iron stain which is a yellowish brown stain and that would also look green.

Need a full set of tests results NOT done with strips (either a drop based test kit from Taylor or dealer testing with either liquid reagents or a disc read in a machine. With accurate test results we can better tell what is going on in the water.

The orange powder you are seeing is rust (iron oxide) that has precipitated out of solution, usually because of high pH. If you drop the pH (such as by using trichlor as your chlorine source, which I suspect you might be) then it will go back into solution and most likely color the water yellow.

As a side note, fiberglass pools are prone to iron stains (and cobalt spotting). Iron stains can be removed with ascorbic acid (vitamin C), citric acid, or oxalic acid. It is a procedure which I can explain if you have actual stains on the fiberglass surface.

Clarifiers and flocks will not take car of your iron problem.

FWIW, the only way to remove iron is to precipitate it out into the filter as stain, not as precipitated iron oxide, which, as you found, could be smaller than the filter pores (unless you have a DE filter and not a cart or sand). Metal "removers" are just sequestrants that chelate the metal ions (deactivate them) but require weekly treatments to keep the metal 'deavtiated, so it does not stain or precipitate. Products based on phosphonic acid are much more effective than ones based on EDTA but, as I said, the iron is still in the water, just not chemically reactive. Iron can be removed from your fill water by running it through a 'green sand' or other iron specific ion exchange medium (usually used in conjunction with a whole house water softener).

Post those test results and we can take it from there.

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Waterbear

Thanks very much for commenting.  Our pool is located at a summer place about 75 miles from home.  It is a rural area with the nearest store a 20 mile round trip.  The nearest pool store capable of doing a water analysis is more like a 40 mile trip so we buy our chemicals and get water testing when we get back home.  We had a sample done at home after we topped off the pool with well water and shocked it when we opened it. Free chlorine was 18.44 ppm, total at 20, combined at 1.56, ph at 8.4, cya at 1, and zero for copper and iron. The iron number may have been zero because it all had precipitated out with the heavy shock treatment or the machine was not set up to test for iron.   The shock we used was calcium hypochlorite.  Per our pool store instructions, we added ph Minus to bring down the ph.  We have not made the 40 mile trip to test current condition of the water but the strips indicate the ph to be in the ideal range, understanding this is not accurate. We have a salt pool with a chlorine generator which is now running but the pool needed four bags of salt which we added yesterday and this morning.

As mentioned in my previous post, we went two days with no change in water clarity so we added a clarifier and within 12 hrs, the water cleared up enough to see the bottom of the 3 ft shallow area.  Although still yellow cloudy, today we can just see the crab emblem we have at the bottom of the 8 ft deep end.  There are patches of precipitated iron in the shallow part but not covering the entire bottom as it did after we shocked the pool and before vacuuming.  The precipitate is orange powder which has not stained (yet) the bottom.  We added a filter aid powder to the cartridge filter and are watching the pressure carefully to make sure it does not exceed the recommended max pressure of the filter.

This morning, we vacuumed the pool again, concentrating on the orange precipitate patches.  Again, it came back into the pool but in no where near the amount it did the first time we vacuumed.  I guess the filter aid on the cartridge helped somewhat.

The water clarity has improved considerably over the last two days and we are planning to give it another shot with clarifier this afternoon after a two day wait.

I do understand your point that a clarifier won't resolve our iron problem and that some of the iron may have precipitated out and that some of it may have gone back into solution or is in solution from the beginning.  Our brown well water pool topping off is a problem we encountered only this year but, even with clear well water last year and in years past, we likely had iron in the pool all along but it was in solution.  For years, we have had a water softener using salt for iron conditions but it has not been able to handle the unusual amount of iron in the water this year ( 1.5 ppm per the softener tech ) and our house water and pool makeup water is brown.  We are working with our water treatment folks to install an iron filtration system but that is weeks away.

Your last paragraph is a little confusing with regard to what product we should use at this time to handle the current pool iron condition and what to use once we get the water clear.  With regard to a professional water test, we will be back home early next week and will get a water sample to our pool store for analysis.  If we haven't heard from you by then I will post the results for your review when we get them.

Again, we appreciate you taking your time to explain things and giving some guidance on how to address this problem

Regards,

Glen

 

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7 minutes ago, glentre said:

 The nearest pool store capable of doing a water analysis is more like a 40 mile trip so we buy our chemicals and get water testing when we get back home.

Invest in a Taylor K-2006 test kit and test your own water. (Don't get the K-2005, you want the K-2006). Depending on your SWGC make and model you might also want to invest in either the Taylor K-1766 salt test kit or Taylor or AquaChek salt test strips.

 

3 minutes ago, glentre said:

cya at 1

 

3 minutes ago, glentre said:

We have a salt pool with a chlorine generator

What brand SWCG? The majority of them need a CYA oof 80 ppm. Some say as low as 50 ppm and some 100 ppm. CYA of 1 is testing error. You have no CYA in the pool! This is problem #1.

 

6 minutes ago, glentre said:

we added ph Minus to bring down the ph

Muriatic acid is a better choice with a SWCG.

. Dry acid adds sulfates to the water, which can cause problems with your salt cell over time.

16 minutes ago, glentre said:

The shock we used was calcium hypochlorite

What is your total alkalinity and calcium hardness? (Strips do not test for calcium harness, they test total hardness)

The milky precipitate you saw in your 'vase experiment' with the pool water is very possibly calcium carbonate precipitating out. Cal Hypo will add 7 ppm of calcium hardness for every 10 ppm of free chlorine added. Why are you shocking a salt pool. If properly set up they don't need shocking and either liquid chlorine or laundry bleach (both are the same except for the strength) are better choices because it's exactly the same thing that your cell is producing. Also, just about every SWCG on the market has a superchlorinate setting which will shock the pool if needed. Finally Cal Hypo is not a good choice for a salt pool because it will lead to calcium buildup on the cell and nessesitate acid washing the cell which, IMHO, is a PITA. My own salt pool has only needed to be shocked when I have shut it down when I have gone on vacation and I shock before I leave, shut the pool down, and shock again when I return.

25 minutes ago, glentre said:

Your last paragraph is a little confusing with regard to what product we should use at this time to handle the current pool iron condition and what to use once we get the water clear.

It was general information. Without water test results AND a list of all pool chemicals with brands (and ingredients if possible) it's impossible to give you anything specific to deal with the conditions in YOUR pool. However, the additional information you provided has illustrated that there are several simultaneous problems going on.

Once again, I strongly recommend getting a Taylor K-2006 test kit and get rid of the strips.

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Thanks again for your response and so quickly.

1.  I will order the Taylor K-2006 test kit as soon as I post this reply. We have been using the AquaChek -7 strips for years which have given us readings that have always kept our water crystal clear.  That is, until we get into a problem that we have now where the strips are not accurate enough to guide us properly.

2. Our SWGC is a Hayward Turbo Cell T-Cell-9 with a Hayward Gold Line Aqua Rite controller.  It gives us a salt number which was 2700 at startup but now up to 3200 after adding salt.  Is this accurate enough or are the salt test strips better?

3. Good point on controlling the ph.  We will switch to muriatic acid.

4. Our total alkalinity is 80 per the test strips

5. We shocked the pool just before removing the winter cover when the pool basically had no chlorine.  With the water temperature at 56 degrees, we could not use the salt generator.  As you suggest, we will use liquid chlorine or bleach in the future to shock when needed like when the generator fails or when not being at the house for extended periods of time as you do.

 

I very much appreciate your input and will post again mid next week with the results after we can get the water tested during a trip back home.

Glen 

 

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3 hours ago, glentre said:

We have been using the AquaChek -7 strips for years which have given us readings that have always kept our water crystal clear

"crystal clear" does not mean balanced and sanitized. They are two different things, While strips can be precise (repeatable results on the same sample) they are not that accurate (proper results on a known standard solution used to calibrate testing). Also their resolution is useless for trying to balance water. For example, strips have a resulotion of 40 ppm for the TA test (they go from 40 to 80 to 120). If you are trying to calculate the calcium saturation index (for a plaster pool) you need a resolution of 10 ppm. Also, for a salt pool the TA measurement is extremely important for controlling the pH rise. You want your TA at 60-70 ppm. Strips can't do that.

3 hours ago, glentre said:

SWGC is a Hayward Turbo Cell T-Cell-9 with a Hayward Gold Line Aqua Rite controller.

I know this one well since I have an Aqualogic (full automation system) with a T-15 cell. You must have CYA in the water and then dial down your output to maintain a FC of 3 to 5 ppm (personnally I run my at 4-6 ppm). Hayward recommends CYA of 60 to 80 ppm. I recommend the upper limit. Generally, go by the salt level on the readout but do check it with a strip or drop test from time to time, perhaps monthly. IF the salt cell is reading correct but the strips or drop test are reading much higher then there is a good chance that the cell is getting calcium deposits and needs to be acid washed with muriatic acid. Your manual will explain how to do this. This is why I suggested not using cal hypo at all,. You want to use liquid pool chlorine or plain unscented chlorine bleach (Clorox or a house brand from the grocery that has no scents, thickeners, or detergents added such as 'outdoor' bleach or 'dripless' bleach.) However as I said before, once your water is balanced and your salt systems adjusted to maintain the proper FC level there should be no need to shock.

 

3 hours ago, glentre said:

Good point on controlling the ph.

IF the TA is in the right range and you don't try to set your pH too low then you won't need to "control" the pH. Also, adding borate to 50 ppm (either with boric acid, borax and acid to adjust for the pH rise from the borax, or a commercial product such as Proteam Supreme Plus or BIoguard Optimizer Plus (which are mixtures of borax and boric acid so they are pH neutral on addition) and you maintian your pH in the 7.6 to 7.8 range and only lower it when it climbs to 8.0 you will find that pH stays very stable for an extended period.

https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52523-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/

https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/

3 hours ago, glentre said:

Our total alkalinity is 80 per the test strips

NOT! It is more likely in the range of 60 to 100 (and I am being generous). Retest when you get your K-2006.

 

4 hours ago, glentre said:

very much appreciate your input and will post again mid next week with the results after we can get the water tested during a trip back home.

I would much prefer you post the results from your K 2006 if you have any difficulties using it Taylor Technologies has videos on proper testing procedures:

https://www.taylortechnologies.com/en/page/231/k-2006-complete-kit-with-fas-dpd

The pool store numbers you posted indicate that a colorimeter is being used to read either strips, discs, or vials. If the store is using strips the results are meaningless, IMHO. If Discs (LaMotte Spindisc/Waterlink) it's OK but there are some limitations in colorimetric testing of TA and CH when compare to a titration test (Taylor) Hach and older LaMotte systems used vials. Hach has some limitations in what is being tested and the Lamotte uses the same chemistry as the spindisc with the same limitations.  Also, many pool store employess are not properly trained (When I worked retail I had the LaMotte certification for their in store testing system).

Have you ever noticed how the printout that you get at the store always recommends what chemicals you need to add and how much? That is because pool stores make money by selling you as many chemicals as they can, even if you don't really need them, and the software is optimized to sell product.

A few fun facts:

Alkalinity increaser is nothing more that baking soda (sodium bicarbonate, sodium hydrogen carbonate) . You can buy it in the baking aisle of the grocery for a lot less. Arm and Hammer packages their baking soda for the pool/spa industry under the name of Alkalinity First but it's not any different than their regular baking soda except for the size of the bag.

SWCG systems product sodium hypochlorite (the chemistry is a bit more complex but what you end up with is exactly the same as if you had added sodium hypochlorite to the water). Sodium Hypoclorite is sold in 10% AND 12.5% solutions as liquid pool chlorine. It is also sold in 3%, 5.25%, 6% and 8.5% strengths as household liquid chlorine bleach or laundry bleach. the 6% and 8.5% strengths are often referred to as 'ultra' bleach.

pH increaser is nothing more that washing soda (Sodium carbonate). IF you need it (you don't with a SWCG!) you can get it in the laundry Aisle as Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda. It can be useful for those that use trichlor exclusively since trichlor causes  both pH and TA to drop fast and requires TA to be rum at 100 to 120 ppm or even higher. Sodium carbonate will raise BOTH pH and TA at the same time, raising the quicker than the pH in many cases.

A better alternative to raise pH with minimal impact on TA is to use sodium tetraborate decahydrate, which can also be found in the laundry aisle under the name 20 Mule Team Borax. Dose it at twice the dose required for sodium carbonate for the equivalent pH rise. It has minimal impact on TA, which is what you want with every other form of chlorine besides trichlor.

The BEST way to raise pH with NO impact on TA is by aeration which causes CO2 to outgas which, in turn, causes pH to rise. I give a detailed description in the link above on lowering TA since this is part of the process.

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Waterbear,

Wow!  That's a lot of good info in your last post.  Our Taylor K-2006 test kit arrived today and these are the results.  The first number is from the Taylor kit and the second after the comma is from our pool store using a disk type machine, just for comparison.  The store numbers are about 3 hours after pulling the sample from the pool so that may affect some of the readings.  My Taylor tests were done about 36 hrs after the store test and with the filter running 24/7 and the SWG running at 70%.  That likely accounts for the high chlorine numbers but I have turned it back to 40% until the number comes down a little.  Not too worried about it as we have a family reunion this weekend with a lot of teenagers and two big dogs who love the water.

Ph = 7.6, 7.6

Free Chlorine = 6.0, 3.04

Combined Chlorine = 0.5, .36

Total alkalinity = 70, 68

Calcium hardness = 240, 222

CYA = below the lowest Taylor range of 30, 2

Saturation index = 0.05, 0.1

Additional store results are:  zero for copper, iron, nitrates and dissolved solids, 917 for phosphates, 3027 for salt vs 3200 on Hayward control box readout

Because of the low CYA, we started adding Poolife stabilizer and conditioner yesterday afternoon.  That product is 98.5 % cyanuric acid.  We have also been adding a clarifier which has done wonders for the water.  It is now quite clear with only a slight amount of cloudiness which appears to be improving day by day.  We are cleaning our filter daily and getting orange deposits off of the pleated surfaces.  Now that we can see the bottom, there are only a few small areas where we can see orangish powder.  We vacuumed two days ago and the powder did not come back into the pool.  Yea!

Our brown iron rich water now appears to be coming from leakage around the seams of the 3 ft dia concrete well pipe which will be addressed as soon as we can get a well contractor here. Heavy rains since last fall in eastern Virginia caused the water table to rise above normal and we are getting ground water leaking into the well.  Today, the water table is only 12 ft down.  Our dilemma is just as the water is getting clear, hot weather is making us add makeup water which will be brown.  Any suggestions on that as we don't want to start this disaster again?  We bought a bottle of Iron-Out in case it's needed but are reluctant to add any to the pool without your input whether this is a good idea or not.

Regarding pool stores trying to sell you as much chemicals they can, you are correct as we have also experienced.  The store we finally settled on gives us a test readout that tells what and how much of a chemical should be added but the owner often tells us to disregard certain items on the printout as not really needed.

Thanks again for your time in helping me out with this problem.  I hope the thread will be available into the future as your explanations might benefit others who have experienced the same or similar problem

Glen

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19 hours ago, glentre said:

We bought a bottle of Iron-Out in case it's needed but are reluctant to add any to the pool without your input whether this is a good idea or not.

IF you mean Iron OUT by Summit it is not made for use in swimming pools. If you mean another product named Iron-out please post the manufacturer and ingredients if they are listed on the bottle.

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Sorry, I used the wrong term.  What we have is Regal Care Systems "Metal Out" that our pool store gave us.  They don't show any ingredients on the bottle but do caution use as it contains etridonic acid.

Our reunion family starts arriving this evening and with the pool skimmer starting to suck air because of no rain for weeks and low water level we had to top it off with about an inch of water this morning.  Because of the added well water, the pool has now changed from almost clear to a bit cloudy but we can still easily see the bottom in the deep end.

At this point, we are reluctant to add anything that will result in the pool turning more cloudy such as clarifier which tends to reduce clarity before turning it clear in two days or so.  If needed, I don't know what the Metal Out will do if added now.  BTW, we also have some Ferra-tabs to treat iron that have been around for about 5 years when we used to have a sand filter.  Rain is expected both tomorrow and Saturday so hopefully, we won't have to top off again for awhile.

Glen

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On 5/27/2021 at 1:05 PM, glentre said:

etridonic acid

This is a phosphonate and is the type of sequestrant that you want to use. It won't remove the metal, as I said, but will make it chemically non reactive as long as you are adding weekly doses to the water. Use the Metal Out by following the directions on the bottle for initial dosing and then weekly maintenance.

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On 5/27/2021 at 1:05 PM, glentre said:

Ferra-tabs

If you mean Ferri-Iron tabs this is just a clarifier designed for sand filter to remove metals that have precipitated  out of solution by high chlorine levels. I wouldn't bother. They can;t be used with DE filters and will foul a cartridge filter possibly necessitating its replacement.

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Ph = 7.6, 7.6

perfect

Free Chlorine = 6.0, 3.04

Maintain at 4 to 6 ppm, if you add 50 ppm borate then you can maintain at 3 to 5 ppm

Combined Chlorine = 0.5, .36

perfect, IF CC is above .5 ppm you need to shock, either use bleach or your cell

Total alkalinity = 70, 68

good for a salt system. Keep it between 50 to 70 ppm.

Calcium hardness = 240, 222

good for fiberglass IMHO. There are those that say you don't need to worry about CH with a fiberglass pool but there is some empirical evidence that CH of 200 or higher does help prevent iron stains and cobalt spotting, which fiberglass is prone to. You want to avoid high CH because it can cause both scale deposits which are very difficult to remove from fiberglass without causing damage AND because calcium deposits in your salt cell will necessitate acid washing the cell and can shorten its lifespan. FWIW, My T-15 cell was installed in 2005 and is still working (average life span is 3 to 5 years) and my pool is open year round since I am in Florida.

CYA = below the lowest Taylor range of 30, 2

THIS SHOULD BE 80 PPM! GET IT UP THERE ASAP AND ADJUST YOUR PERCENTAGE DOWN TO MAINTAIN FC AT 4 TO 6 PPM. No or low CYA WILL shorten cell life and will also possibly necessitate needing to shock to maintain CC at or below .5 ppm.

Saturation index = 0.05, 0.1

This is excellent. Personally, I like to run a slightly negative saturation index in a fiberglass pool with a salt system to minimizes calcium deposits in the cell.

Additional store results are:  zero for copper, iron, nitrates and dissolved solids, 917 for phosphates, 3027 for salt vs 3200 on Hayward control box readout

Depending on how the store software is set up and which spindisc they are using the 0 results might just mean that certain tests were not done. Phosphates are a non issue, don't get suckered into phosphate removers.  The Hayward readout is reading conductivity, the store test is a chemical test for chloride ions (which will give a slightly different results) or is done with a handheld conductivity meter that might or might not be calibrated.. These results are close enough.

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Waterbear,

Now that our Memorial Day weekend family has departed, I can get back to thanking you for your time and knowledge in helping us resolve our pool water problem.  After all our worry about the water, it rained all day Saturday and Sunday and only got into the high 50's on Monday so only a few of the brave kids got into it briefly.  Like all pools, it was nice to look at though.

At this point, the water has cleared up significantly, helped by the 2" or so rain over the weekend.  The CYA is still low but we are slowly getting it up to the recommended level.  

Over the last several days, our well water has cleared up somewhat, indicating the water table is finally dropping after a winter and spring of abnormally high levels which caused our brown iron-rich problem.  We have a well contractor coming in next Monday to review what needs to be done to prevent further leaking of ground water into the well.

I understand the iron is still in the water and will even increase so long as we continue to  top off with well water or at least until our well is fixed.  However, if the water stays clear and there is no staining without adding any iron treatment, would you recommend we start using the Metal Out product anyway?

Glen

 

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4 hours ago, glentre said:

  However, if the water stays clear and there is no staining without adding any iron treatment, would you recommend we start using the Metal Out product anyway?

If there are metals in your water then yes. It is a preventative rather than a cure. As I said it will chelate the metal ions so they are less likely to stain or precipitate out when used regularly.

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Waterbear,

Thanks, we will start using the Metal Out as a preventative.

I can't thank you enough for your interest and help.  Even though we have maintained our pool for more than 20 years without any water problems and thought we knew what we were doing, this problem made us realize we had little real knowledge about water chemistry.  I have printed all of your responses to have a reference to refer to if a problem like this hits us in the future.  Also, the discovery of this forum gives us comfort in knowing we have a place to get answers and to hopefully contribute whenever we can.  Thanks to you, this has been a rewarding experience.

Glen

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