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I will try to be quick and short 

Bought a used tub got it home and hooked up. Bought a spa cleaner and ran it through but didn't seem to get much of anything. Researched and bought some ahh-some 

1st cleaning brought a lot of brown nasty's out, so I did a 2nd which brought more as did the 3rd. By the 4th it was just very little each time I purged I poured at least a half a cup of 6% bleach in or some dichlor 6 tsp

On the 4th purge I tried to make the chemistry close as I did not bother with that on the previous 3 purges just bleach. I could not get my PH to come down. I was using the test strips & everything else was fine but ph never would come down. I used pretty much an entire bottle of ph down over a 24 hour period and nothing. Went ahead and purged that 4th time draining the tub, wiped it down with 50/50 mix water and white vinegar. Refilled the tub added dichlor and a shot of bleach ran the tub jets for about an hour drained the tub again then fresh filled it. 

Tub is fresh filled added dichlor and 4oz of muratic acid, waited for tub to get over 80 degrees then added spa marvel. TA sitting about 110, bleach about 5 and PH off the charts. Mind you I have since bought the Taylor 2005. The acid demand was 3 drops and according to my tub 350 gallons was so about an ounce of muratic was added. 6 hours later ph still of the charts and acid demand still 3 drops. Some say algae can give a false ph or high bleach. I don't have high bleach at 5 and I can't imagine anything living in my tub after all the cleans

Any help, suggestions would be appreciated. Also the spa marvel people said to leave TA 120 to 150 and that their product leaves PH a little high. Well my kit only goes to 8 so I have no way of knowing if its 8.2 or 16.2 and that doesn't work for me. Should I even be using a product like spa marvel?? 

Also read that using 20 mule borates help and to get the tub around 50ppm. Could someone please tell me how I can measure that ???? Or calculation as to know how to to add. 

Please and thank you also I am in the Tampa Bay area if any of you folks are neighbors and chemist let me know. 

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shocking to 10 times the cc to reach breakpoint is one of the fallacies still being taught to CPOs. Here is a quote that you might find interesting: "To oxidize monochloramine, it takes from 0.5

What test kit are you using?  I do it old school. I use only liquid chlorine amd I add CYA with stabilizer powder. Once you get 30cya just focus on FC levels. Ph down ahould bring it in range easily a

Hello DayDay1:  The purges you performed on your hot tub will now start paying you dividends.  The people that make postings on this forum are a godsend to new hot tub and pool owners.  You did the ri

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What test kit are you using?  I do it old school. I use only liquid chlorine amd I add CYA with stabilizer powder. Once you get 30cya just focus on FC levels. Ph down ahould bring it in range easily amd just make sure TA amd CH are acceptable levels. You dont need other stuff keep it simple. 

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Up this morning the 1oz of MA didn't do the trick. However I am at 2 drops acid demand instead of 3 to get to 7.6 if someone can help me with the MULE 20 borates maybe it will come down or keep adding acid until desired PH

TA is 100

FC is 5 when total chlorine was 2 and if I am doing this right 2 -5 = -3 on combined???????  

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First question, Are you going to use chlorine or bromine in your tub? From our post it looks like you are using chlorine.

 Be aware that with your Taylor test kit you cannot get an accurate pH or TA if the sanitizer level is above 10 ppm and be aware that the DPD test for sanitizer level can bleach out and read low when sanitizer level is above 10 ppm, which is why there are instructions for diluting the sample when yo suspect that sanitizer might be high.. I would recommend getting a Taylor K-1515 FAS/DPD as an add on and using that instead of the DPD test in your K-1005which effectively converts your test kit into the recommended K-2006. Y0u might also want to pick up a  Taylor K-1000 2 way tester for quick daily checks of sanitizer and pH just to make sure you are in the ballpark. Be aware that the pH reagents for the two kits are not interchangeable. The OTO test for sanitizer in the K-1000 is "bulletproof" and will not bleach out even at nuke levels of sanitizer but will go through color changes of yellow to orange/red/brown and extremely high sanitizer levels when even FSD-DPD testing won't work BUT it only tests TOTAL chlorine or bromine.

Don't worry about borate until you have your water balanced. We can get to that later. It's pretty easy to do.

IF your sanitizer is within range then the the reason for your pH problem is that your TA is TOO HIGH. You want it around 60 ppm or possibly even lower. Read these links please:

https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/

https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/

'Also if you are going to use chlorine read this:

https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/23090-dichlorbleach-method-in-a-nutshell/

Be aware that there is some misinformation in the above post such as the procedure for lowering TA

 

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Thanks guys I actually bought the K-2006 kit and got a comparator out of a 2005 kit that had chlorine side. 

I will look into the other kits mentioned today. 

I know my TA is 100 so maybe just keep lowering it and areating. I do have to say I have read that process a few times and still not sure exactly how that is done. Meaning add acid run jets for 30 minutes then test water again immediately and base my damand off that??? If that's the case won't it drop too low when the jets aren't running?? 

Taking some water to Leslies as I type 

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Leslie Results 

FC 2-5 Mine 3.85

TC within 0.2 of FAC  mine 4.26

PH 8.4

TA 109

CH 149

CYA 12

Iron 0.1

Copper 0

Phosphorous 1454  says they have a product to lower that and that I should..... Tub has brand new filter says to add "nophos" Should I add this product??? 

TDS 300

At this point I am going I am going to add an ounce of MC run it for 25 minutes jets all on and valves open, then retest and keep adding an ounce and repeating until I get where I need to be with PH......is this correct method?? 

As you can see above I got on my kit a 2 for FC and a 5 for TC per the kit you minus the TC from the FC and get CC which in my case and the way I read it 

2-5= (-3) still not sure I understand that portion. 

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FYI for anyone who is buying a used tub I attached a video. I ran a purge product from the local pool store and got nothing. 

I researched a little and used Ah-some and got yuk out. The video below is the 2nd purge I did. I did a total of 4 or 5 purges I can't remember but the last one only brought out some discoloration of foam around the edges no more chunks. 

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Hello DayDay1:  The purges you performed on your hot tub will now start paying you dividends.  The people that make postings on this forum are a godsend to new hot tub and pool owners.  You did the right thing by listening to their advice.

Hope you and your family enjoy many happy times soaking in your well maintained hot tub.

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I give at this point I am going to smoke this thing. Just Super Chlorinate it right now with the numbers as they stand. 

I added 2oz of MC this morning ran jets and air for 40 minutes, re-tested demand was 2 drops, added 2 more oz of MC ran jets again 40 minutes and acid deman was 1 drop but TA is at 55 from 100 yesterday. 

No one has used this tub YET and as of yesterdays test my FC has dropped so its eating something is my guess. 

yesterday 3.85 FC vs today 1.96 

Yesterday 4.26 TC vs today 2.03

""PH 8.4 vs today 8.2 

""TA 109 vs today 55

""CH 149 vs today 145 

""CYA 12 vs today 11 

""Phosphates 1454 vs today 1522

""tds 300 vs today 600 

All changes in one day and adding 4oz of MC only 

ANY HELP SUGGESTIONS THOUGHTS ANYONE WANNA BUY A HOT TUB

Yesterday.pdf Today.pdf

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Last night I did a super chlorinate 32oz 6% in 350 gallons rinsed & drained the tub. In the filter I am still seeing a light brown haze of some sort. My question is could that be still more biofilm or would MA cause some of that discoloration? Can't imagine biofilm as I have done 6 back to back cleanses and the last barely showed a thing.

In balancing my hot tub before super chlorinating. It took roughly 10/11oz of MA to get TA to 50's and PH to 7.6, can or should I just add say 8oz. in bucket right off the bat to my 350 gallon tub or should I add 2oz aerate and then 2oz. etc. Is there a pro or con to too much MA at one time. Will it damage tub or leave brown residue in my filter and filter housing as I have seen. After adding how long do I need to let it sit before I can get a reading and add more? Right after aeriation and couple hours? 

Also seems I read somewhere that I should forget PH and get TA to 50 then adjust. But this morning I read get the PH to 7.0 aerate and repeat until PH doesn't climb over 7.8 then check TA. Please clarify best approach 

Lastly do I add the Dichlor now before adjust PH TA or after PH and TA are stable. Same for Mule 20 after PH and TA are stable or now, also how much for 350 gallons. 

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54 minutes ago, dayday1 said:

In the filter I am still seeing a light brown haze of some sort.

Does you fill water contain iron? HIgh chlorine levels can cause metals to precipitate out (32 oz of 6% bleach in 350 gallons of water is a FC level of about 44 ppm) and iron can cause a light brown stain in the filter or color the water brown. Iron and Manganese are mostly problems with well water but some city water systems also have iron problems.

58 minutes ago, dayday1 said:

can or should I just add say 8oz. in bucket right off the bat to my 350 gallon tub

NO! NO! NO! THIS WILL DROP YOUR Ph DANGEROUSLY LOW AND CAN AND WILL DAMAGE THE TUB, FILTER, AND CIRCULATION SYSTEM!

1 hour ago, dayday1 said:

Also seems I read somewhere that I should forget PH and get TA to 50 then adjust.

Adjust TA before adjusting pH. However you need to monitor the pH while adjusting TA.

1 hour ago, dayday1 said:

Please clarify best approach

read this:

https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/

1 hour ago, dayday1 said:

Lastly do I add the Dichlor now before adjust PH TA or after PH and TA are stable. Same for Mule 20 after PH and TA are stable or now, also how much for 350 gallons.

Adjust TA, Adjust pH, add dichlor until you have added a cumulative total of 30 to 35 ppm which will bring your cyanuric acid to right around 30 ppm and then switch to bleach and maintain a FC level of 3-5 ppm. Shock when CC is over 1 ppm (ideally .5 ppm but that id often difficult to achieve in a spa because of the high bather to water ratio. Make sure CH is above about 120 ppm, if not raise it. Don't worry about phosphates or TDS from pool store testing. Both are bogus. Get yourself a Taylor K-2006 test kit (not the K-2005). It is available from many online retailers and Amazon if you can't find it locally and test your own water!

Once you get everything balanced we can talk about adding borate. You will need to pick up some LaMotte borate test strips. Don't get Aquachek, Taylor, or Hach borate strips, they are next to impossible to read since the color change is very close shades of tan. LaMotte have a distinct color change from pink to tan. Once agian you can order them online. There are several ways to add borate but the easiest is boric acid. Once again, it can be ordered online from a chemical supply.

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The brown staining came before the super chlorinate as I was trying to get the tub numbers in check. I did add 4oz to tub twice when I was doing this and the filter was in at that time. However once I got the numbers close I took the filter out and super chlorinated. So the brownish stuff was before the high Chlorine levels. What made me think the acid could have done it. 

Okay I didn't think about the acid lowering PH thing but makes total sense. So far the most I have ever added in one shot is 4oz. hopefully I didn't screw anything up. 

Iron according pool store 0.1 

Copper 0.2   and Manganese I have no idea? 

CH 150 

Read your post earlier this morning as I started the fill. Hence the question as to lowering PH slowly or lowering TA first then PH

So as of now I added 2oz MA to 3 gallons of tub water mixed and poured into middle of tub, turned on all jets and opened air ran for 40 minutes 

Added 3oz of MA to 3 gallons mixed and added same as above. 

Is this too much MA at once? Also is this too much MA to close to each dosing? 

I plan to follow the dichlor/bleach routine just wanted clarification as to when to add before or after balance PH/TA  Thank you for clearing up 

ALSO thank you for your response this morning as I would like to get this tub up and running I have had it almost a month and haven't used yet. 

 

Update: Just tested

I do have the K 2006 kit and got the drops from the 2005 kit instead of powder to test Chlorine. 

Chlorine started at 3ppm this morning after adding 2oz MA and running Chlorine went to 1 after adding 3oz MA last time and running 40 minutes it is at 0 should I add some or just keep balancing first? 

Since first test this morning PH is down to 3 maybe 4 drops demand to get to 7.0

TA is at 100/110

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Spent all day Sunday adding MA in 1 and 2 oz at a time mixed in bucket and poured in. Ran jets let sit for an hour and test again and repeat. 

Final last two times it took one drop of acid demand to get to 7.4 from 8.0 put another 1/2 oz in and went to bed. Didn't run jets or anything all day just its normal on off cycling. Grabbed water and went to pool store. 

FC = 4.7.                                             

TC= 4.17.         

PH = 8.3        

TA= 53

CH = 140

CYA= 8 

IRON - 0.1

COPPER = 0 

Phosphates = 1457 

TDS = 500 

My own test resulted in 

FC = 4 to 5

CC = 4 to 5 

PH = 1 drop to get from 8 to 7.4 

TA = 5 to 6 drops to red. 5 drops light red 6 drops darker red 

Just added another 1/2 ounce MA and aerated

By the looks of it my TA is going to need to be 40 to keep my PH inline. Is this an issue? 

Will Borate help this issue? 

What else could be causing this issue? I do have Ozone on the tub 

Also checked filter and still getting a light dust color something in the filter and a couple places at the water line. 

I am mixing MA in a bucket or in a jar with water and adding slowly to the center of the tub with the jets running. And leave running for about 20 minutes. 

I am aware of the CYA being low but so far I have only added 5 tsp of dichlor since the fresh fill 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, RDspaguy said:

The fc cannot possibly exceed the tc, as fc is part of tc. Was that a typo on your part, or the readings from the pool store?

You cannot test cc, it is the difference between tc and fc. I assume another typo?

Should be TC sorry yes typo and numbers from pool store. 

However when I do the test or have in the past. I do the r001 and r002 to get FC then add r003 to get TC and sometimes the number is the same. More often than not the TC is like 5 and the FC is 2. Which makes NO sense to me at all. 2 - 5 is negative 3 am I missing something? 

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Tc-fc=cc, so that's 3ppm combined chlorine.

That's pretty typical, given the bather to water ratio on a spa. I read somewhere that 1 person using the spa for 1 hour will use 3ppm fc, turning it to cc. These numbers are obviously not precise, as spas come in many sizes, but you get the idea. That is why I recommend ozone. Otherwise, you need to shock to get rid of that cc. That would mean raising fc to 30ppm (yes 30ppm) or using an unspecified amount of mps.

I would suspect that your used ozonator is not working. They only last a few years in most cases.

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2 hours ago, RDspaguy said:

Otherwise, you need to shock to get rid of that cc. That would mean raising fc to 30ppm (yes 30ppm) or using an unspecified amount of mps.

shocking to 10 times the cc to reach breakpoint is one of the fallacies still being taught to CPOs. Here is a quote that you might find interesting:

"To oxidize monochloramine, it takes from 0.5 to 1.0 times the CC level.  Even if the CC were urea, it takes 2-3 times the CC level, not 10x.  Of course, the higher the FC level the faster reactions occur, but there is no magic 10x amount." - Richard Falk"

The above quote is from the Orenda Technologies blog on breakpoint chlorination. Richard Falk is chem geek on this and several other online pool and spa forums. I forget if this was originally hashed out on Pool Forum or TroubleFreePool forum several years back but I was part of the orginal discussion. Also, the level of CYA needs to be taking into consideration since the higher the CYA present the higher you will need to raise the FC to oxidize the combined chloramines. If CYA is low the breakpoint level is much lower than if the CYA is high. For example, for a CYA of 30 ppm you would need to shock to 12 ppm but if the CYA is 50 ppm you would need to shock to 20 ppm to achieve the same results.

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Went to Lesley's pool store and gave them water. They have a computer system that automatically runs all the numbers somehow. Anyway they were still showing my PH as high where I was at a 7.6/7.7 ish. Went to another pool store who does it old school and they got the same thing I did. After 24 hours numbers below 

PH = 7.6  aerate for 15 minutes and got 7.8 so I think I cured the ph rise 

TA = 40 / 50 ish 4 drops pink 5 drops red 

FC 5 

TC 5

Where am I trying to keep my chlorine numbers for use? Is 5 safe to go into? Is 10? 

So last step I think is 20 mule Borax?? How much?? 350 gallons 

Thinking 20 Mule over Boric Acid because of adding sulfates, thoughts?? However I've read 20 Mule requires more acid and my TA is already at a low number. 

Thanks for all your help gentlemen 

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