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hoopy

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It seems I opened a can of worms just by mentioning FF vs. TP. Oh well. Let me ask this now about circ. pump vs. no circ. pump. The Sundance and Hot Springs I looked at both had circ. pumps that run 24/7 (I was told though that it's a very low power consumption.) The Marquis I looked at doesn't have a circ. pump, but uses a skimmer type system that kicks the main pump on every so many hours, or something like that. My questions is, is it better to have a circ. pump (like the Sundance or Hot Springs) or is it better to not have a circ. pump (like the Marquis)? Thanks.

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It seems I opened a can of worms just by mentioning FF vs. TP. Oh well. Let me ask this now about circ. pump vs. no circ. pump. The Sundance and Hot Springs I looked at both had circ. pumps that run 24/7 (I was told though that it's a very low power consumption.) The Marquis I looked at doesn't have a circ. pump, but uses a skimmer type system that kicks the main pump on every so many hours, or something like that. My questions is, is it better to have a circ. pump (like the Sundance or Hot Springs) or is it better to not have a circ. pump (like the Marquis)? Thanks.

A circulation pump is quiet and introduces Ozone 24/7. A non circulation pump system filters a lot of water in a short period of time and is also an exceptable method. Personal preferance. I like Marquis. Neither type filtration system will have much of an advantage over the other in power consumption. If it's right outside your window, maybe 24/7 with a small quiet pump is the way to go.

Don't worry about the can of worms Jim has been arguing with everyone for years.

I like your approach, but it is not practical at the present time and more expensive than need be for a production spa.

The problem with a spa that filters twice a day is that in between the filter cycles the pump comes on to heat the spa because it will lose some heat and cause the heater to come on (one hour of heater 6 KW is equal to about 8 to nine hours of pump running). That increases the pump switching, starting and the shaft seal wear.

You can lengthen the time between heater/pump starts by putting more insulation on the outer wall of the cabinet, but there is a point of diminishing return on costs both in manufacturing and in cost of operation.

Yes Jim but as I said, a further allowable drop and less heat loss in plumbing. These will be the 2 things that allow this to be affordable. And its more like 15 minutes of 5.5 KW to raise 2-3 degrees equals 1.5 hours of pump use. And the whole point is to only use 1/2 hour of heater a day which equals 3 hours of pump use, but I need 4 or 6 hours of pump use to equal clean clear water so. Maybe now your understanding?...Maybe not, maybe never.

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It seems I opened a can of worms just by mentioning FF vs. TP. Oh well. Let me ask this now about circ. pump vs. no circ. pump. The Sundance and Hot Springs I looked at both had circ. pumps that run 24/7 (I was told though that it's a very low power consumption.) The Marquis I looked at doesn't have a circ. pump, but uses a skimmer type system that kicks the main pump on every so many hours, or something like that. My questions is, is it better to have a circ. pump (like the Sundance or Hot Springs) or is it better to not have a circ. pump (like the Marquis)? Thanks.

Either method will work fine. I like the circ pump for the added ozone time and quietness but don't make a big issue of this.

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Ok, from all this reading, here is what I have come up with (and please correct me if I am wrong.) Small things that I shouldn't worry about are things like FF vs. TP insulation and circ pump vs. no circ. pump. Big things to make sure I worry about include reputable dealer, warrenty of brand, price (of course), and most important, results of wet test. Am I missing anthing as far as small things that I shouldn't worry about or big things that I should?

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Ok, from all this reading, here is what I have come up with (and please correct me if I am wrong.) Small things that I shouldn't worry about are things like FF vs. TP insulation and circ pump vs. no circ. pump. Big things to make sure I worry about include reputable dealer, warrenty of brand, price (of course), and most important, results of wet test. Am I missing anthing as far as small things that I shouldn't worry about or big things that I should?

Shopping list for your spa search.

1/ Look for spas that are easier to repair. As the spa ages, you do not want to spend extra money on labor, especially on leaks. The equipment should be spread out so one component is not in the way of removing the other. All of the side panels should be removable, and the spa should not be filled with dense foam to interfere with repairs. (Don't buy a luxury car and fill the hood full of foam!). The smaller tubing needs support with foam to keep it from shaking and leaking, so some foam support is needed. The standard design from 27 years ago is to stuff the cabinet with foam, then place the equipment in a box in front of the spa. This is not only a poor design for repairs, it is bad in terms of heat build up on the pumps and the plumbing has multiple consessions in design. It is much better to allow air space around the equipment. If you place the equipment in a large container as in a thermal pane spa, the heat is dissapated and the equipment is easy to access. If you have a leak in the plumbing, buried in the foam,in a fully foamed spa, it is very expensive to fix. How do you find it?

2/ Look for spas with standard parts. There are several companies that make readily available high quality parts. The word "EXCLUSIVE", means just what it says. You are excluded from buying parts from other suppliers. If they have exclusive parts that you like, check around to see how much they cost to replace. I certainly would not pay $500 for a heater manifold. Most all the major brands have some ridiculous prices on parts. All of the manufactures of spas use outside manufacturers for the various parts. If they buy enough parts, then they can have the parts "bastardized" so that they cannot be replaced with the standard part. There is no difference in quality between "exclusive" parts and non-exclusive. In most cases the non exclusive parts are stronger. One large company places the motor frame on the pump on a 45 degree angle, so that you can't even replace it with a better brand of motor. You are stuck with an inferior part and "pay thorugh the nose" for it.

3/ Look for spas that are fully insulated and not fully foamed. A fully foamed-in spa is not, by any stretch of science, the most energy efficient spa. Spas that capture the heat from the equipment and keep cold air off the components and plumbing are efficient. A fully insulated spa has foam on the shell, warm air chamber, and the walls of the cabinet have foam boards. The cabinet is closed with no vents that allow cold air to enter the cabinet except by vacuum. DAIT Click Here

4/ Look for spas with acrylic backed by vinyl ester bonding resin and hand rolled fiberglass with glass cloth or chop. This is the shell with the most history for strength, reparability, and beauty. (When something better comes along I'll be the first to let you know.) The cheaper spas will use a composite of Acrylic and ABS, or another plastic and ABS with no structural fiberglass. Then the cabinet is stuffed with structural foam to hold it up. This is a cause of many problems that result in expensive repairs and more expense to heat the water.

5/ Look for quality electronics. Right now Gecko makes the best (in my experience) and Balboa is very good.

6/ Look for spas that have good clean plumbing. If the pump can put out 200 gallons per minute and it is running at 150, there is something wrong with the design. If a diverter valve is used, make sure it is NOT the first thing the pump hits in the plumbing path. If the diverter valve is the first plumbing part after the pump, then the spa is poorly plumbed. I call this "diverter first" plumbing. Look for few turns in the main plumbing. A poorly installed diverter valve means that people have to wait their turn for the jets. The diverter valve is similar to driving you car with the brakes on, in which the engine works harder to do less work. If you cannot run all the jets at full pressure at the same time, then the spa has a diverter valve, restricting the flow.

7/ Look for bypass filtering with check valves on the main jet pumps. This insures proper water flow to the jets. It also follows the ANSI standards for safety. (The worse design is the no bypass plumbing on spa pumps because it limits the water flow and as the filters get dirty, the jet pressure drops. These spas have weak jet pressure to begin with and water diverters and it violats the ANSI UL.)

8/ Look for pumps that are mounted to reduce noise. We use rubber mounting pads, solid 2 x 4 frames and lag screws to hold the pumps solid and get rid of "sounding boards" (thin plywood or plastic). Listen to the pumps running on high with all the equipment going. If you can't have a conversation, don't buy it. All you should hear is water!

9/ The length of a warranty on the spa should not be the primary reason for buying. Warranties are hidden "insurance policies" in the spa that you are paying for. It is built into the price of the spa. For instance, our least expensive spas have a one year parts and labor warranty for a reason. It is to make them affordable. Our high end spas have 5 years parts and labor. The same brand of components, same shell construction, same plumbing parts brands. ( When I hear a salesperson say: "we put our money where our mouth is". They mean "we put your money in our pockets and manipulate the interpretation".)

10/ Look for reasonable prices. A one horsepower (1.65 hp), one speed jet pump spa with no air jets (air injection) being sold for $6000 is a rip off. Look for the features per dollar of the spa as well as design and construction materials. Do not purchase any spa that you do not understand about the equipment being used. Find out the real HP, motor size, brand of motor, brand of electronics and jets.

11/ Avoid spas that use a tiny 24 hour circulation pump that produces less than 18 GPM. (Unless of course you want to buy intense ozone generators [not safe to breath around], scum balls, scum bags, scum bug, extra shock and water clarifiers, and enzyme treatments to help get the scum out of the water.)

12/ Don't be "sold" on a spa by a salesman. If you feel pressure and manipulation, get up and walk out. The deal they have now that is so good, may be even better tomorrow. Research the products and take some "salt" with you so you can take everything as they say with "a grain of salt". Make your decision to purchase at a later time based on knowledge. ( There is a company that goes around with trailers and RV's with a sign on the trailer saying "LIQUIDATION SALE". The spas they sell are lacking in cold weather insulation, not fully finished, and are being sold for about $1000 more than a comparable spa. They say if you don't buy now, you will miss out on the best deal. They also don't take care of the customers. They are unethical. This is the epitome of high pressure sales.) If you go to a home show, you need to know about spas and prices before you go, otherwise, you most likely will be taken advantage of. HOME SHOW WISDOM CLICK HERE

13/ Buy spas that are ANSI/NSPI(Click here) conformant. The largest manufacturer of portable spas does not follow these engineering design rules. These rules are their to protect consumers and are not subject to interpretation.

14/ At the present time, there are no valid rewards or awards in the possession of any spa company. Do not fall prey to awards that are paid for advertizing. Do not fall for the Consumer's Digest logo used on brochures, because that too is paid advertising. Do not fall for the NSPI awards to the spa company that gives the most money to the organization. Do not fall prey to "Star Ratings on Pool and Spa" it is paid advertizing. The spa industry is full of tricks to play with the uninformed consumer. The more out of date and rich the company is, it seems the more money they have. That is only because spa shoppers do not know anything about spas. All of the advertizing on earth cannot change a poorly designed products engineering.

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Ok, from all this reading, here is what I have come up with (and please correct me if I am wrong.) Small things that I shouldn't worry about are things like FF vs. TP insulation and circ pump vs. no circ. pump. Big things to make sure I worry about include reputable dealer, warrenty of brand, price (of course), and most important, results of wet test. Am I missing anthing as far as small things that I shouldn't worry about or big things that I should?

Hoopy, I would encourage you to push for a great price as some dealers are priced a bit higher than the going rate on certain product. This is a great place to compare prices , I would ask here if a price is fair or not as many readers here sell the exact products you are looking at! GOOD LUCK!

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Yes Jim but as I said, a further allowable drop and less heat loss in plumbing. These will be the 2 things that allow this to be affordable. And its more like 15 minutes of 5.5 KW to raise 2-3 degrees equals 1.5 hours of pump use. And the whole point is to only use 1/2 hour of heater a day which equals 3 hours of pump use, but I need 4 or 6 hours of pump use to equal clean clear water so. Maybe now your understanding?...Maybe not, maybe never.

Roger; It seems that you finally do understand. I think it was the last long winded post that I put on my site for you to read that gave you the missing piece in your thoughts. That is great. I was concerned that you were never going to understand and were going to go around forever telling people that I was full of it.

A 100% warm air barrier 24 hours a day only costs the price of the pump running and nothing else. It also filters the water about 50,000 gallons per day, while costing about 1/3 of what a typical full foam spa in winter.

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A.) Roger; It seems that you finally do understand. I think it was the last long winded post that I put on my site for you to read that gave you the missing piece in your thoughts.

B.) A 100% warm air barrier 24 hours a day only costs the price of the pump running and nothing else. It also filters the water about 50,000 gallons per day, while costing about 1/3 of what a typical full foam spa in winter.

Jim,

A.)You are by far the biggest narcicist I've ever had the misfortune to know.

B.) 1/3 the price? That is completely untrue. Plus, who wants to run a pump 24/7 in the winter when the heater is more efficient at heating the spa. How long is you handshake-promise warranty good for on those pumps?

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Jim,

A)You are by far the biggest narcicist I've ever had the misfortune to know.

B) 1/3 the price? That is completely untrue. Plus, who wants to run a pump 24/7 in the winter when the heater is more efficient at heating the spa. How long is you handshake-promise warranty good for on those pumps?

50,000 gallons per day? You have yourself sadly confused. Man it must be traumatic being that wrong.

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There have been some great replies in this thread. Let us please not let Jim hijack this thread like he has so many others. Back to the point here, what is the going price for the following three models: Hot Springs Sovereign, Sundance Polermo and the Marquis Quest? I hope I am allowed to ask for this info per forum rules. If not, I apologize.

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<H1 align=center>Re: Winter and Freeze Damage</H1>

Posted By: David S (ool-43555534.dyn.optonline.net)

Date: Thursday, 24 November 2005, at 2:45 p.m.

In Response To: Winter and Freeze Damage (Jim Arjuna) This is my first winter with my SCF. A put a remote temperature sensor inside the cabinet and it transmits to a receiver in the house. The whole thing was $20 at Home Depo. I figured it would be a good way to be sure the spa was running since I don't check it every day. What I see so far is that when it is about 40 degrees outside it is a toasty 82-88 degrees in the cabinet.

=================================================================

82 = 100%?

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<H1 align=center>Re: Winter and Freeze Damage</H1>

Posted By: David S (ool-43555534.dyn.optonline.net)

Date: Thursday, 24 November 2005, at 2:45 p.m.

In Response To: Winter and Freeze Damage (Jim Arjuna) This is my first winter with my SCF. A put a remote temperature sensor inside the cabinet and it transmits to a receiver in the house. The whole thing was $20 at Home Depo. I figured it would be a good way to be sure the spa was running since I don't check it every day. What I see so far is that when it is about 40 degrees outside it is a toasty 82-88 degrees in the cabinet.

=================================================================

82 = 100%?

Jim,

You've bascially been claiming infinante R value for YEARS, saying the heater NEVER has to run because the air in the cabinet is hotter than the spa. HELL, the air blower alone will be pumping 80 degree air into a 100 degree spa......... and the water temp won't go down? Here it is from his YOUR customer, posted on YOUR message board. Out side air is ONLY down to 40 degrees.

Here's the question. Figure the shell of your spa is foamed to an R value of about R-8. What's the heat loss with a delta T of 20 degrees (100 degree water / 80 degree air temp), compared to say....... Hot Springs with R-30 and a delta T of 60 degrees (100 degree water / 40 degree air temp)?

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Roger; It seems that you finally do understand. I think it was the last long winded post that I put on my site for you to read that gave you the missing piece in your thoughts. That is great. I was concerned that you were never going to understand and were going to go around forever telling people that I was full of it.

A 100% warm air barrier 24 hours a day only costs the price of the pump running and nothing else. It also filters the water about 50,000 gallons per day, while costing about 1/3 of what a typical full foam spa in winter.

No Jim I didn't figure it out by reading your post's. I can only get a line or two into your post' because it is the same old same old from you everytime. My ideas are my ideas and as much as you want to think they come from you and you have been the educator of us all it is simply not true.

The poster wants us to confirm some prices for him so we shall not hijack his thread. Start another thread hoppy when you have some prices for the board.

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Here's the question. Figure the shell of your spa is foamed to an R value of about R-8. What's the heat loss with a delta T of 20 degrees (100 degree water / 80 degree air temp), compared to say....... Hot Springs with R-30 and a delta T of 60 degrees (100 degree water / 40 degree air temp)?

According to the New Mexico Energy Minerals and Natural Resources Department's "New Mexico Energy code application worksheet for residential buildings" heat loss through a 'wall' is calculated as such;

The heat loss from a wall is:

Q= A* TD/R

where

Q= Btu per hr

A= area

TD= temperature difference between inside and outside air, F

R= total thermal resistance

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According to the New Mexico Energy Minerals and Natural Resources Department's "New Mexico Energy code application worksheet for residential buildings" heat loss through a 'wall' is calculated as such;

The heat loss from a wall is:

Q= A* TD/R

where

Q= Btu per hr

A= area

TD= temperature difference between inside and outside air, F

R= total thermal resistance

It appears that Jim is in damage control. He's grasping for an answer as to why his kit spa isn't giving the results he's always claiming.

"I have been contemplating your post for a couple of days, because the numbers don't match our testing. At 40 degrees outside it sould be about 95 to 104 inside the cabinet, with just the circulation pump.

In my testing in the coldest months here in CO at 5 below zero using a couple of hours of filtering with the main jet pump (to add heat and circulation) the temperature in the left rear cabinet (the farthest point from the jet pumps and circ pump) the temp at 3 inches from the shell and about half way up was 86 degrees average. This is about the coldest spot in the cabinet under a severe cold outside.

When the jet pumps run a full cycle, the temperature in the cabinet by the pumps will reach 120 to 135 degrees about half way through the second cycle, depending on the time of running the jet pumps vs the air blower. Those jet pumps have a fan on them that also blows the heat to the rear of the cabinet to distribute the heat evenly and allow for cooler ambient.

Normally we recommend running the jet pumps for a minute or two (up to 5 minutes in really frigid times.)before turning on the blower in winter, just to conserve the warm air barrier.

The temperatures you are showing are less than what it should be by about 10 degrees average.

So, I am wondering if your spa has an air leak. The fellow who delivers the spas is supposed to make sure all the seal is in tact upon arriving. All of the foil is stapled in place and the top is sealed as best as possible.

The best way for me to tell is to go around the perimeter of the upper shell, where the lip over is and feel for any heat losses while the jet pumps are on high. Your hand is pretty sensitive to any warmth excaping. All it takes is a small leak to creat a convective heat loss. There is always a tiny amount of this, because it is a production machine and air is hard to seal super tight, but some times it gets missed by our guys and the leak is excessive.

We also changed brands of Circulation pump and I am wondering if they produce lower heat? I will do a test on it as soon as I can. I didn't see any major differences in the specs and output of the pumps from the prior pumps, but I did not think there would be a heat difference.

If you could, please check to see if you feel any heat loss from around the upper lip of the spa shell, while the jet pumps are running."

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It appears that Jim is in damage control. He's grasping for an answer as to why his kit spa isn't giving the results he's always claiming.

"I have been contemplating your post for a couple of days, because the numbers don't match our testing. At 40 degrees outside it sould be about 95 to 104 inside the cabinet, with just the circulation pump.

In my testing in the coldest months here in CO at 5 below zero using a couple of hours of filtering with the main jet pump (to add heat and circulation) the temperature in the left rear cabinet (the farthest point from the jet pumps and circ pump) the temp at 3 inches from the shell and about half way up was 86 degrees average. This is about the coldest spot in the cabinet under a severe cold outside.

When the jet pumps run a full cycle, the temperature in the cabinet by the pumps will reach 120 to 135 degrees about half way through the second cycle, depending on the time of running the jet pumps vs the air blower. Those jet pumps have a fan on them that also blows the heat to the rear of the cabinet to distribute the heat evenly and allow for cooler ambient.

Normally we recommend running the jet pumps for a minute or two (up to 5 minutes in really frigid times.)before turning on the blower in winter, just to conserve the warm air barrier.

The temperatures you are showing are less than what it should be by about 10 degrees average.

So, I am wondering if your spa has an air leak. The fellow who delivers the spas is supposed to make sure all the seal is in tact upon arriving. All of the foil is stapled in place and the top is sealed as best as possible.

The best way for me to tell is to go around the perimeter of the upper shell, where the lip over is and feel for any heat losses while the jet pumps are on high. Your hand is pretty sensitive to any warmth excaping. All it takes is a small leak to creat a convective heat loss. There is always a tiny amount of this, because it is a production machine and air is hard to seal super tight, but some times it gets missed by our guys and the leak is excessive.

We also changed brands of Circulation pump and I am wondering if they produce lower heat? I will do a test on it as soon as I can. I didn't see any major differences in the specs and output of the pumps from the prior pumps, but I did not think there would be a heat difference.

If you could, please check to see if you feel any heat loss from around the upper lip of the spa shell, while the jet pumps are running."

Well, also at 36-50 CFM per minute for an air blower it would take......let's see.........about a minute to completely empty the cabinet of this "warm air barrier" and dump it in the spa water....cool, cept then the cabinet is full of......yep -5 degree air from outside! Very good concept. I routed my duct work across the pump motor before it goes into the blower but it still didn't help, the blower still takes in cold air in 60 seconds.

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Well, also at 36-50 CFM per minute for an air blower it would take......let's see.........about a minute to completely empty the cabinet of this "warm air barrier" and dump it in the spa water....cool, cept then the cabinet is full of......yep -5 degree air from outside! Very good concept. I routed my duct work across the pump motor before it goes into the blower but it still didn't help, the blower still takes in cold air in 60 seconds.

But it's a glorious 60 seconds.

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Well, also at 36-50 CFM per minute for an air blower it would take......let's see.........about a minute to completely empty the cabinet of this "warm air barrier" and dump it in the spa water....cool, cept then the cabinet is full of......yep -5 degree air from outside! Very good concept. I routed my duct work across the pump motor before it goes into the blower but it still didn't help, the blower still takes in cold air in 60 seconds.

Except for one thing, the pumps we use put out a lot of heat, since they are full rate motors that produce 4, 5, and 6.7 HP.

We have the opposite problem of concerns about too much heat with the pumps running and the blower running. My test show continuous air temp of above 128 degrees for several hours at 68 degrees out side.

The air in the air lines is over 150 degrees because of compression. We have to be concerned about it getting above 165 because that is the limits of the pipes.

Like I have said many times before and I am tired of telling you this, by imperical testing we have it all covered, but you don't know about Haven Spas, still to this day. The spa has 100% thermal warm air barrier 90% of the time in 95% of the country. In Canada and the Great North we use more layers of thermo foil. That is better insulation than any spa in current production and we are continually improving on it.

The test spa had two 4 HP WW executives.

The intake of the blower averaged 128 degrees. The exit was 150's.

It ran with the cover off four six timed cycles and the air never droped below 126 degrees. 1.5 HP WW 240 V blower.

We have the DAIT control set to run in summer with the blower, so the cabinet at 75 degrees outside will be removing the excess heat left by the blower, because the blower is not enough air to keep the jet pumps running with enough air. We are actually more concerned that we are collecting too hot of air for the blower system, that is why we run both the DAIT fan and the Blower at the same time. That is about 140 CFM venting.

You can ask our customers if it works or not. I believe that even our old sytle of spas in the Eclipse series do a lot better than most of the "top named brands", when it comes to heat retention and energy conservation.

If you wish I can set up the spa with temperature sensors and give you a personal demonstration. Just come down to Denver and we can have dinner after the test. You will see for yourself.

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<H1 align=center>Re: Winter and Freeze Damage</H1>

Posted By: David S (ool-43555534.dyn.optonline.net)

Date: Thursday, 24 November 2005, at 2:45 p.m.

In Response To: Winter and Freeze Damage (Jim Arjuna) This is my first winter with my SCF. A put a remote temperature sensor inside the cabinet and it transmits to a receiver in the house. The whole thing was $20 at Home Depo. I figured it would be a good way to be sure the spa was running since I don't check it every day. What I see so far is that when it is about 40 degrees outside it is a toasty 82-88 degrees in the cabinet.

=================================================================

82 = 100%?

He now claims the spa to be defective! HAHAHAHHAHAHA! Arent they all?

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The intake of the blower averaged 128 degrees. The exit was 150's.

It ran with the cover off four six timed cycles and the air never droped below 126 degrees. 1.5 HP WW 240 V blower.

"The intake of the blower averaged 128 degrees. The exit was 150's."

There's a serious flaw in this statement. While it is true that compressing air will cause the temp of the compressed air to rise, immediately upon decompression the air temp will instantly drop to the original temperature (less what ever heat was lost through the pipes while in transit).

Take a few more days and get back to us (try not to blame your underlings for this one).

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"The intake of the blower averaged 128 degrees. The exit was 150's."

There's a serious flaw in this statement. While it is true that compressing air will cause the temp of the compressed air to rise, immediately upon decompression the air temp will instantly drop to the original temperature (less what ever heat was lost through the pipes while in transit).

Take a few more days and get back to us (try not to blame your underlings for this one).

Spa tech, you are just about the last person on earth to be discussing the matters of science on a forum.

Those tests were with thermometer, thermistors inside the air tubing. What is known as imperical testing. That is where you spend a lot of time doing the research and design work, then test it in prototypes. The testing is the fun part.

If you want to see how it works, come by some time and I will show you.

There is no flaw in any of my statements, just in your understanding. I do feel sorry for people who are grasping at ideas they can't understand then try to make statements about them. But here is the simple answer for you;

When air is pressurized it immediately raises in temperature. There are charts and formulas used to calculate this, but the best is to test it with thermistors on the actual device. The other part is the blower motor, itself which is 1.5 HP 240V also adds its heat to it.

Next time you have a vacuum cleaner with a "blow" side output, stick your hand over it and tell me what you feel? Could it be heat?

You are what is known as "technically challenged" and you should not be posting about things you don't understand, It really makes you look bad.

He now claims the spa to be defective! HAHAHAHHAHAHA! Arent they all?

"SpaMan":

You asked for this one. It is like a perfect set up question for me.

You go and put a indoor outdoor thermometer inside the front equipment compartment of your Cal Spa, right now, tonight, and tell me what the temperature is inside? Do you have any idea the amount of heat loss and waste that represents?

It is 22 degrees outside in Broomfield and you are not far from us. Go do it now and tell the world what a cold equipment compartment you have?

There is a huge difference between poor engineering, bad design for cold weather, and having a spa that needs to be serviced, because the seal is incorrect.

Defective engineering vs a defect in a correctly designed spa that is covered under warranty.

God bless you and your precious family.

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But it's a glorious 60 seconds.

Oh boy Jim.........you claim to be a god fearing man (and by the way I don't) Yet you seem to somhow think it is ok to spread your half thruths and made up numbers to try and convince someone of your designs superiority. Yet your claims are nothing more than scewed numbered double talk. 60 seconds Jim, 60 seconds.

One simple question Jim calculate how many cubic feet of air space is inside one of your cabinets for me. Say on your Super Duper Whatever model. Short and sweet please Jim 700 words and 13 paragraphs won't make it more true.

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Now, just to add to the debate about compressed air. First of all, I am not out against anyone, and i own a TP style tub which i own, and which Jim does believe in. BUT, compressed air DOES become cooler upon decompression. Take a scuba cylinder for example, the air inside at ambient pressure. Now open that cylinder, even partially, and in a few moments you will notice frost forming on the yoke. This is due to the supercooling effect when you allow gas to quickly expand from a compressed state. So running compressed air through lines which then becomes uncompressed in the tub theoretically will not stay warmer. The vacuum cleaner analogy does not work as there is no involvement of compressed air, and a vaccum cleaner is not being used outside in the winter (hmmm, could be onto something here, would beat shovelling). Yes, there is warm air from the blower side, since the air passes around the warm motor, but i'm willing to bet that if extreme cold air was introduced as is the outside air in our winters, it would still be cold coming out. But who cares, the bubbles do feel great!

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Take a scuba cylinder for example, the air inside at ambient pressure. Now open that cylinder, even partially, and in a few moments you will notice frost forming on the yoke. This is due to the supercooling effect when you allow gas to quickly expand from a compressed state.

Same thing happens with a tank of propane......... oh, and is the entire basis on how air conditioning works.

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Except for one thing, the pumps we use put out a lot of heat, since they are full rate motors that produce 4, 5, and 6.7 HP.

Jim,

Can you please share with everyone who makes your pumps and the model numbers. Again I think you are a bright person at times and sometimes somethings you say are true but there is so much in between the truth you tell and all of the other total Bull Shi*t. Jim there are NO 6.7 continuous use HP pumps in spas at least not home portables. It is these kinds of statements that cause you in end to be so disrespected .

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