Quality Brands Of Hot Tubs

[eke]

There have been some great replies in this thread. Let us please not let Jim hijack this thread like he has so many others. Back to the point here, what is the going price for the following three models: Hot Springs Sovereign, Sundance Polermo and the Marquis Quest? I hope I am allowed to ask for this info per forum rules. If not, I apologize.

Hoopy, I have a thread going on also (Tiger River V. HS). Just trying to gather as much info as I can as you are doing. What led you to consider the HS Sovereign over the other HS models? Also, did the dealer have any TR spa's? If so, what was your impression and/or what did the dealer say regarding the two brands? Lastly, I'll be interested to know what you finally decide on. Thanks.

[thestallion]

Jim,

Can you please share with everyone who makes your pumps and the model numbers. Again I think you are a bright person at times and sometimes somethings you say are true but there is so much in between the truth you tell and all of the other total Bull Shi*t. Jim there are NO 6.7 continuous use HP pumps in spas at least not home portables. It is these kinds of statements that cause you in end to be so disrespected .

Jim any special reason you have not answered this question or is it one of those times when your fantasy land and reality are best kept apart.

[hoopy]

eke: The Sovereign was the best model in my price range. I know that I can't go more than what they were asking for the Sovereign. Yes, my local dealer had some TS in stock too. He told the difference was some of the types of jets and the warrenty. I am looking at Marquis and Sundance brands too. I haven't wet tested any yet so I am not really leaning toward any one brand over the other. I know that the HS uses propreitary parts so those can get kind of expensive if they need replaced. I was told Marquis uses parts that are easily replaceable. What have you found out in your research?

[Jim_The_Jim]

Oh boy Jim.........you claim to be a god fearing man (and by the way I don't) Yet you seem to somhow think it is ok to spread your half thruths and made up numbers to try and convince someone of your designs superiority. Yet your claims are nothing more than scewed numbered double talk. 60 seconds Jim, 60 seconds.

One simple question Jim calculate how many cubic feet of air space is inside one of your cabinets for me. Say on your Super Duper Whatever model. Short and sweet please Jim 700 words and 13 paragraphs won't make it more true.

Roger; My mother told me to speak the truth. My father told me to speak the truth.

Jim any special reason you have not answered this question or is it one of those times when your fantasy land and reality are best kept apart.

One picture is worth a K of words.

If you want to call the manufacturer's liars, I would love to see that.

You need to keep up with modern technology.

I realize that I am sitting in a swamp filled with ignorant people, trying to talk sense with you all.

You can't teach pigs to sing, and I certainly am wasting my valuable time on this forum.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Now, just to add to the debate about compressed air. First of all, I am not out against anyone, and i own a TP style tub which i own, and which Jim does believe in. BUT, compressed air DOES become cooler upon decompression. Take a scuba cylinder for example, the air inside at ambient pressure. Now open that cylinder, even partially, and in a few moments you will notice frost forming on the yoke. This is due to the supercooling effect when you allow gas to quickly expand from a compressed state. So running compressed air through lines which then becomes uncompressed in the tub theoretically will not stay warmer. The vacuum cleaner analogy does not work as there is no involvement of compressed air, and a vaccum cleaner is not being used outside in the winter (hmmm, could be onto something here, would beat shovelling). Yes, there is warm air from the blower side, since the air passes around the warm motor, but i'm willing to bet that if extreme cold air was introduced as is the outside air in our winters, it would still be cold coming out. But who cares, the bubbles do feel great!

The air entering the blower is over 120degrees. When it compresses it does get hotter, when it decompresses it is not below 120 degrees, because it gained heat along the way. All other spas do not control the path of the air inside their cabinet. All the air in a DAIT spa is passed across the frames of the very warm motors before it goes anywhere else.

Dr. Spa, (what a ridiculous name) obvioulsy you are comparing a between room temperature gas under tremendous pressure to and air blower. You really think that hot air that is compressed then returns back to ambient pressure is going to be colder than it starts? NOT. As a matter of fact as long as it is under water it retains a lot of heat. The moment it reaches the top of the water and ambient air pressure it is going to be less than 120 but more than the temperature of the water. It looses some energy as it passes heat to the water. It is over 150 degrees as it hits the water, and almost instantaneously drops in temp because the water absorbs the heat.

There is a wonderful feature on this site. You can block yourself from the mental garbage of spa sales people by blocking them in the "My Controls" section. It is wonderful. I have blocked five people and will be adding more. I just have gotten to the point where I have almost no tolerence for techno illiterate sales people, and others with hugh type A personalities and no understanding. From now on I will respond to people who are willing to learn.

[thestallion]

One picture is worth a K of words.

http://www.xxxx.com/SixHP.html

If you want to call the manufacturer's liars, I would love to see that.

You need to keep up with modern technology.

I realize that I am sitting in a swamp filled with ignorant people, trying to talk sense with you all.

You can't teach pigs to sing, and I certainly am wasting my valuable time on this forum.

Jim, Be Thankful that you can hide on-line and never have to face people, Calling people pigs what a tiny scared, pathetic little man you must be. As for the Hp that is not continuous HP you A$$ it is brake HP.

[Roger]

.Roger; My mother told me to speak the truth. My father told me to speak the truth.

Then Jim why do you continue to lie, decieve, skew words and belittle people through an anonymous media (the internet) Because you don't get enough of it face to face with people around you? Your Father and Mother failed miserably in there quest to get you to only speak the truth. Not only that they have created a being that is ignorant to all other perceptions of reality other than there own it is almost pathetic, but at this point it is impossible to have any mercy!!

My Mother and Father taught me to be a piller in society and a model citizen. Truth can be perceived so many different ways they left it out, and said it was my choice once I evaluated all options.

There is a wonderful feature on this site. You can block yourself from the mental garbage of spa sales people by blocking them in the "My Controls" section. It is wonderful. I have blocked five people and will be adding more. I just have gotten to the point where I have almost no tolerence for techno illiterate sales people, and others with hugh type A personalities and no understanding. From now on I will respond to people who are willing to learn.

Perfect...it won't be long and we will only hear from him after the original post by someone then he will have everybody blocked so he will be talking to himself.

I guess as always when asked a specific question Jim will not answer it. What I was going to say after he confirmed how many CF of air were in his cabinet air space, is how can the air going in the blower be 120 degrees when it takes X amount of seconds to exacuate the cabinet warm air and now the air is coming in directly from outside very cold but yet flashes by the pump motor somehow and super heats from 0 degrees to 120 above by some mystic power and enters the blower. I guess you got to understand Jims way of thinking in order for it to work (in other words it won't but he says it will) Take it on koolaid faith and have another cup. I spose if you had a fan on the outside of the cabinet that pump more air in the cabinet that was required by the air pump so as to delay the air so it could heat.....oh sigh I need Jims schooling again.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

You can't teach pigs to sing, and I certainly am wasting my valuable time on this forum.

and we wish you'd leave but I know you won't unless forced to do so (like you've been numerous times before). You rely on these spa forums to try to lure people over to your sales trap of a website..

[Roger]

and others with hugh type A personalities and no understanding. From now on I will respond to people who are willing to learn.

You have the biggest type A+++ egotistical personality I have ever seen. And the rest of this statement let me translate for everyone here. He is only going to respond to gullable idiots that he can shove his opinion down there throats. All the rest of us who DO NOT like to get pushed around and called idiots he will not listen to.

[Andy]

is how can the air going in the blower be 120 degrees when it takes X amount of seconds to exacuate the cabinet warm air and now the air is coming in directly from outside very cold but yet flashes by the pump motor somehow and super heats from 0 degrees to 120 above by some mystic power and enters the blower.

From someone on this board who seems to believe he knows much about spas such as you Roger, this is probably the dumbest statement I have read on this board. In fact, anyone who else who has read this is now dumber too. Way to go Roger!

[Roger]

From someone on this board who seems to believe he knows much about spas such as you Roger, this is probably the dumbest statement I have read on this board. In fact, anyone who else who has read this is now dumber too. Way to go Roger!

Agreed, this is why I have such a hard time understanding Jim and his statements.

Jim Said;

The air entering the blower is over 120degrees. When it compresses it does get hotter, when it decompresses it is not below 120 degrees, because it gained heat along the way. All other spas do not control the path of the air inside their cabinet.

And I asked how many cubic feet of air was inside his cabinet, I was also going to ask how many cubic feet of air his blower moves. This was leading to, and I will use some made up numbers here because he won't answer questions when asked. If there is 50 cubic feet of air inside the cabinet (that is warm because of the pump motor heating it. Then you turn on the blower and it moves 100 cubic feet of air a minute. in 30 seconds all your warm or as Jim says 120 degree air is gone. Then outside air must be used to replace the 120 degree air inside the cabinet, or the cabinet will be sucked into itself, lets just say this outside air is 10 degrees. Somehow it comes in the cabinet goes past the pump motor (yes duct work can direct past the motor which is running 120 degrees) but it goes by fast because it is getting sucked into the air blower and it somehow gets to 120 degrees. That's a 110 degree heat cycle in a matter of less than a second, very difficult to do even with air, which heats faster than just about any substance (theres a few that are faster). But it would take a more than red hot surface to heat air that quickly when it is moving past at the speed the blower moves air. And I don't think his motors run red hot, or maybe they do!!

Maybe no one else wants to call him on this stuff but I will always. And I do not know what or how he does the things he says his tub design does and frankly I don't care. This is not science it is common sense.

[SpaMan]

Agreed, this is why I have such a hard time understanding Jim and his statements.

Jim Said;

The air entering the blower is over 120degrees. When it compresses it does get hotter, when it decompresses it is not below 120 degrees, because it gained heat along the way. All other spas do not control the path of the air inside their cabinet.

And I asked how many cubic feet of air was inside his cabinet, I was also going to ask how many cubic feet of air his blower moves. This was leading to, and I will use some made up numbers here because he won't answer questions when asked. If there is 50 cubic feet of air inside the cabinet (that is warm because of the pump motor heating it. Then you turn on the blower and it moves 100 cubic feet of air a minute. in 30 seconds all your warm or as Jim says 120 degree air is gone. Then outside air must be used to replace the 120 degree air inside the cabinet, or the cabinet will be sucked into itself, lets just say this outside air is 10 degrees. Somehow it comes in the cabinet goes past the pump motor (yes duct work can direct past the motor which is running 120 degrees) but it goes by fast because it is getting sucked into the air blower and it somehow gets to 120 degrees. That's a 110 degree heat cycle in a matter of less than a second, very difficult to do even with air, which heats faster than just about any substance (theres a few that are faster). But it would take a more than red hot surface to heat air that quickly when it is moving past at the speed the blower moves air. And I don't think his motors run red hot, or maybe they do!!

Maybe no one else wants to call him on this stuff but I will always. And I do not know what or how he does the things he says his tub design does and frankly I don't care. This is not science it is common sense.

Roger well written and understood! He is so confused by this that he actually believes he's right. He seems to want us to think you don't have to replace the air in the cabinet from an outside source, when all reality thats the only place to get the replacement air, and of course there's no possible way to instantly heat that outside air. This being the reason almost all manufactures have steered away from the air blower, unless it is a heated air blower and thats a whole different story. But you my friend are right on the mark. Anyone checked the ETL website for a listing recently? I can save ya time its not there.

[Andy]

Agreed, this is why I have such a hard time understanding Jim and his statements.

Jim Said;

The air entering the blower is over 120degrees. When it compresses it does get hotter, when it decompresses it is not below 120 degrees, because it gained heat along the way. All other spas do not control the path of the air inside their cabinet.

And I asked how many cubic feet of air was inside his cabinet, I was also going to ask how many cubic feet of air his blower moves. This was leading to, and I will use some made up numbers here because he won't answer questions when asked. If there is 50 cubic feet of air inside the cabinet (that is warm because of the pump motor heating it. Then you turn on the blower and it moves 100 cubic feet of air a minute. in 30 seconds all your warm or as Jim says 120 degree air is gone. Then outside air must be used to replace the 120 degree air inside the cabinet, or the cabinet will be sucked into itself, lets just say this outside air is 10 degrees. Somehow it comes in the cabinet goes past the pump motor (yes duct work can direct past the motor which is running 120 degrees) but it goes by fast because it is getting sucked into the air blower and it somehow gets to 120 degrees. That's a 110 degree heat cycle in a matter of less than a second, very difficult to do even with air, which heats faster than just about any substance (theres a few that are faster). But it would take a more than red hot surface to heat air that quickly when it is moving past at the speed the blower moves air. And I don't think his motors run red hot, or maybe they do!!

Maybe no one else wants to call him on this stuff but I will always. And I do not know what or how he does the things he says his tub design does and frankly I don't care. This is not science it is common sense.

Roger you totally misinterpreted what I said. In fact I almost expected you to misinterpret it as this seems habitual for you. It is not Jim's statement I was ridiculing but yours! What you are trying to describe DOES NOT AND CAN NOT OCCUR IN JIM'S SPA OR ANYONE'S ELSE"S SPA BUILT WITH THAT DESIGN. Your statement is nothing but a predetermined falsehood of science period. Your theory will never work. Please do not allow your emotional disdain for someone to get in the way of proving what is or is not a fact. Like Lt. General Russell Honore recently stated, "Don't get stuck on stupid!" Your comments are based on your biased untested theory to dishonor someone elses collected imperical data. That is not how scientists prove a fact. In science a fact should be able to be reproduced. Therefore your statement cannot be true.

[SpaMan]

Roger you totally misinterpreted what I said. In fact I almost expected you to misinterpret it as this seems habitual for you. It is not Jim's statement I was ridiculing but yours! What you are trying to describe DOES NOT AND CAN NOT OCCUR IN JIM'S SPA OR ANYONE'S ELSE"S SPA BUILT WITH THAT DESIGN. Your statement is nothing but a predetermined falsehood of science period. Your theory will never work. Please do not allow your emotional disdain for someone to get in the way of proving what is or is not a fact. Like Lt. General Russell Honore recently stated, "Don't get stuck on stupid!" Your comments are based on your biased untested theory to dishonor someone elses collected imperical data. That is not how scientists prove a fact. In science a fact should be able to be reproduced. Therefore your statement cannot be true.

I ask: How many profiles is one person allowed on this forum?

[Jim_The_Jim]

Roger you totally misinterpreted what I said. In fact I almost expected you to misinterpret it as this seems habitual for you. It is not Jim's statement I was ridiculing but yours! What you are trying to describe DOES NOT AND CAN NOT OCCUR IN JIM'S SPA OR ANYONE'S ELSE"S SPA BUILT WITH THAT DESIGN. Your statement is nothing but a predetermined falsehood of science period. Your theory will never work. Please do not allow your emotional disdain for someone to get in the way of proving what is or is not a fact. Like Lt. General Russell Honore recently stated, "Don't get stuck on stupid!" Your comments are based on your biased untested theory to dishonor someone elses collected imperical data. That is not how scientists prove a fact. In science a fact should be able to be reproduced. Therefore your statement cannot be true.

Rodger is illiterate and he thinks he knows something. There was another idiot, named Ken who used to try his pet theory of the cubic feet of air in the cabinet will be sucked into the blower idea, but under imperical testing his ridiculous theory falls apart. The testing includes: placing temperature read out thermomoters inside the cabinet at strategic places, the intake of the blower, the intake of air into the cabinet, and the inside of the blower pipe at the exit, and inside the air lines just before the water, you can see this in action. With both 4 HP pumps running the air stays, entering the blower, at just above 125 and averages 128 for the entire duration of the test. Inside the blower it raises temperature to just under 155 degrees, and stays at that temperature until it goes into the water. The ambient was 68 degrees. So the blower will put air that is nearly 90 degrees warmer than the ambient air. The bottom of the jet pumps average 98 degrees the top 128 degrees.

Air heats up extremely fast, because of its mass.

I have envited just about every spa salesman who has contested the data, to come by and see for themselves. I will set up the entire test right in front of their eyes, if and only if they will make a statement as to exactly what they see in terms of the temperatures under the operating peramerters. Most spas in the world do not control the area where the air enters and they don't use the same pumps that we do.

When I did the testing it was on a spa that had prodblems in the past with the heat build up, in the area of the twin 4 HP or 5 HP pumps, in which with the blower on or the blower off, it was too hot, with full DAIT insulation and the cooling fan was coming on with the blower too much. The idea was to keep the heat going into the water and not outside the cabinet. It was the "hot" worse case scenario spa that we were trying to keep it cooler. We increased the HP of the blowers to 2 HP to increase the air flow to try and cool the pump area down some. The 2 HP was too much, so we dropped to 1.5 HP and it works the way we wanted, with occasional use of the fan to suppliment the cooling of the air blower in summer. In winter it is not an issue, because we know that the heat generated by the motors has limits. After about 10 minutes at below freezing temps the air will start to cool, so turn off the blower and wait a few minutes, then turn it back on if you want. On the SCF it takes longer and it has a different type of air control system with the fans on the pumps. We still have full use of air injection and turbo air and very low energy consumption. This is just one of the many advantages to a thermally closed spa.

In other words the jet pumps put out more heat than the 1 HP blower could absorb fast enough at an average ambient of 68 degrees, with twin 4 HP water pumps. Keep in mind that these are real 4 HP water pumps, not "brake HP". The DAIT controller is set to switch to summer mode above the 68 degrees, so it was important to make shure the pumps were cooled well enough with the blower running to keep the DAIT fan from comming on too often. I ran the test for hours and hours and the air was always above 120 degrees going into the blower. It was a perfect day at average 68 to 65 as it cooled down.

It is completely irrelevant the size of the equipment compartment, because as in this case the intake for the cool air and the intake for the blower are withing 2 feet of each other. The draw is almost directly from the motors to the blower. The compartment has to be sealed and only allow air to enter where we want it to enter.

Typically the spa sales people on this forum will attack anyone with positive experiences with Haven Spas or anyone who has degrees in science (and does not own a full foam spa) and can understand the physics involved. It is a sad statement on the closed mindedness of the spa industry for any improvements over the 30 year old Full Foam nonsense.

In order to develop a better spa, one has to know the conditions of operation at all conditions of ambient air and weather. We are still making improvements trying to acheive 100% perfection on this design. I don't know anyone else who has this knowledge on spa design in the spa industry. I seem to be the poineer and researcher on this.

Jim, Be Thankful that you can hide on-line and never have to face people, Calling people pigs what a tiny scared, pathetic little man you must be. As for the Hp that is not continuous HP you A$$ it is brake HP.

So, now the motor company who places a "cont rating hp of 6.7 HP" on the motors is a liar, and you are the motor expert?

If anything,.... what I teach is beneficial to you, because obviously you have not kept up with modern motor technology. The comparison is that you really can't teach a pig to sing, and you can't teach a full foam spa salesman any new technology.

I have explained how they get this horse power to many people in the past. You can go look it up on line and educate yourself. Just look up "motors high energy efficient" or terms like that and you will start to understand.

Everything I say is backed up with facts.

Are you threatening to harm me, for telling the truth?

Do you know what the "insultion class" rating on this motor is? Do you know what that means?

[Roger]

Roger you totally misinterpreted what I said. In fact I almost expected you to misinterpret it as this seems habitual for you. It is not Jim's statement I was ridiculing but yours! What you are trying to describe DOES NOT AND CAN NOT OCCUR IN JIM'S SPA OR ANYONE'S ELSE"S SPA BUILT WITH THAT DESIGN. Your statement is nothing but a predetermined falsehood of science period. Your theory will never work. Please do not allow your emotional disdain for someone to get in the way of proving what is or is not a fact. Like Lt. General Russell Honore recently stated, "Don't get stuck on stupid!" Your comments are based on your biased untested theory to dishonor someone elses collected imperical data. That is not how scientists prove a fact. In science a fact should be able to be reproduced. Therefore your statement cannot be true.

No I'm afraid you are misunderstanding me...somehow. I agreed with you. I was very confused in my post so I made it sound confusing. I am even more confused now because you sound just like Jim but I can't figure you out. And like I said you are right Jim says it can happen and he uses it to sell spas yet it is immpossible for it to happen in his spa's or anyone else. You said this not me. Even though he is describing it as happeneing in his post after yours here, it still isn't happeneing. I am glad we concur on this. He does however talk about it happeneing in summer 70 degrees, that is alot different heating air from 70 to 120. But I though we wanted data on heating air from 10 degrees?

Everything I say is backed up with facts.

And some home testing and a bit of speculation, add a little bending of those facts and stir....whatever it takes to sell spa's huh Jimmy.

I don't even want to address the rest of the post because my statement above says it all. Some spa that was overheating for you is the one that had the 120 degree air...now I get it, and it was summer time 70 degrees. Well lets just say they all do and use it to sell spa's. "Our spa's air blower is constantly blowing 120 degree air in the spa water to help keep you warm" You are so full of it Jim it's hilarious.

[SpaMan]

And some home testing and a bit of speculation, add a little bending of those facts and stir....whatever it takes to sell spa's huh Jimmy.

I don't even want to address the rest of the post because my statement above says it all. Some spa that was overheating for you is the one that had the 120 degree air...now I get it, and it was summer time 70 degrees. Well lets just say they all do and use it to sell spa's. "Our spa's air blower is constantly blowing 120 degree air in the spa water to help keep you warm" You are so full of it Jim it's hilarious.

Roger, you do realise your arguing with one person dont you?

[Roger]

Roger, you do realise your arguing with one person dont you?

I try and not think about that as I feel that is one of the worst things a person can do. I will continue to treat them as different people until it is proved otherwise.

On a side note ya gota figure it is someone who got duped into thinking Jims tubs are somehow magical. You know the koolaid sydrome.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Typically the spa sales people on this forum will attack anyone with positive experiences with Haven Spas or anyone who has degrees in science (and does not own a full foam spa) and can understand the physics involved. It is a sad statement on the closed mindedness of the spa industry for any improvements over the 30 year old Full Foam nonsense.

The other typical thing is to accuse anyone with brains and understands the physics involved as being me.

I don't do that. I only use one board name and that is it on any message forum. I also sign with my real name, because I have courage of my convictions. I think that all "professionals" on a forum where consumers are reading, need to use their real names, who they work for, so that the consumer is not taken in by some "spa tech" who is really a spa salesman.

Andy makes good points.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I don't do that. I only use one board name and that is it on any message forum.

Jim,

HAAAAAAAAAAAA!! You've been banned from multiple forums for your actions. You've been caught on other boards posting questions and answering them yourself. Plus, let's not forget the whole "Hot Springs Hank" episode where you tried to pose as a bumbling Hot Springs person to make it look like their rep was clueless and then you jump in with the "answers". It's one thing to be a fraud, it's another thing altogether to then claim yourself to be pure! You are a sham!!! If your mother knew she'd be ashamed.

[Roger]

Typically the spa sales people on this forum will attack anyone with positive experiences with Haven Spas or anyone who has degrees in science (and does not own a full foam spa) and can understand the physics involved. It is a sad statement on the closed mindedness of the spa industry for any improvements over the 30 year old Full Foam nonsense.

The other typical thing is to accuse anyone with brains and understands the physics involved as being me.

I don't do that. I only use one board name and that is it on any message forum. I also sign with my real name, because I have courage of my convictions. I think that all "professionals" on a forum where consumers are reading, need to use their real names, who they work for, so that the consumer is not taken in by some "spa tech" who is really a spa salesman.

Andy makes good points.

I am not a spa salesman Jim just questioning some of your statements that you seem to embelish on the facts. However I do see a bit more sanity in this post, you kept it short and sweet and only bashed FF and spa salesman. You need to stop grouping all salesman together. They are not all idiots I have met many proffesional hard working owners and salespeople. Yes I have met plenty of dopey ones but not everyone is an idiot.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I am not a spa salesman Jim just questioning some of your statements that you seem to embelish on the facts.

and he embelishes because HE is a salesman.

[spa Dr.]

and he embelishes because HE is a salesman.

I'm not a salesman but I play one on TV

[Trigger]

Sigh. We went through this in another forum....

Jim is a salesman plain and simple.

Jim has no degrees in any field; engineer, physics, basket weaving...nothing, nada, zip.

Jim will use the tricky phrase/logic: People with FF tubs have a vested interest in that technology/purchase and refuse (either knowingly or unknowling) to open thier minds to accept his truths. Kinda like when folks who buy a car, all of a sudden want to belive thier car is the best and start to gather evidence to support what they want to belive. I personally find these line of logic by Jim to be insulting (to say the least) and manipulative.

Unforutnatley, I know of no other person that has such a vested interest and attachment to a particulair tub than Jim. Time and time agian, he has been caught in lies, exagerations, half truths, junk science all in attempt to convince himself and others of the virture of his methods and half baked ideas.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Sigh. We went through this in another forum....

Jim is a salesman plain and simple.

Jim has no degrees in any field; engineer, physics, basket weaving...nothing, nada, zip.

Jim will use the tricky phrase/logic: People with FF tubs have a vested interest in that technology/purchase and refuse (either knowingly or unknowling) to open thier minds to accept his truths. Kinda like when folks who buy a car, all of a sudden want to belive thier car is the best and start to gather evidence to support what they want to belive. I personally find these line of logic by Jim to be insulting (to say the least) and manipulative.

Unforutnatley, I know of no other person that has such a vested interest and attachment to a particulair tub than Jim. Time and time agian, he has been caught in lies, exagerations, half truths, junk science all in attempt to convince himself and others of the virture of his methods and half baked ideas.

Yes, but Trigger is one of those fools who bought a cheap piece of plastic stuffed with foam by some slick sales pitch. You tried to save your ego before.

Did you know that the thermal closed type of insulation is the only insulation that was tested and developed by a large coporation and deemed way superior to full foam?

Did you realize that in all the indepenedent tests in which full foam was compared to a thermally closed the thermally closed was determined to be superior?

Yet you speak about things you know nothing about. You don't have a clue how things in this world really work.

Get off it. When you know what I know then you can speak.

Roger It is -1 degrees here today, and 22 above where you live. You may want to check our weather patterns once in a while. We are up at 5300 to 6400 feet in this area.

I am not a spa salesman Jim just questioning some of your statements that you seem to embelish on the facts. However I do see a bit more sanity in this post, you kept it short and sweet and only bashed FF and spa salesman. You need to stop grouping all salesman together. They are not all idiots I have met many proffesional hard working owners and salespeople. Yes I have met plenty of dopey ones but not everyone is an idiot.

Roger; It is MINUS 1 here right now and according to the weather people it is 22 degrees above where you live.

Like I have said before, you don't understand how we can do what we do, and that is your problem, not mine. You may want to listen to Andy, since is owns one of our spas.

Even our older models witout the extreme seal, have at least 10 minutes of blower before they cool down, and that is becasue we put the blower right next to the pumps.

We are just getting better at what we do. You do not understand, and I wish you would stop tellng lies about me, it is really beneath you. I have never said you were an idiot, but that you will not listen and you will not learn.

If you want to participate in the blower run test, I will gladly set it up for you to see for yourself. I put in 6 thermostats in the spa, in the cabinet at the base of the pumps, in the air line leaving the blower, at the intake to the blower and I published the results on our site as I was doing the test.

Since people with closed minds and "pet" ideas, don't want to listen and learn, that is one of the things that gives us a tremendous advantage. As far as a smart shopper is concerned the only spas to consider in cold climates are spas that were specifically designed for cold climates.