Quality Brands Of Hot Tubs

[hoopy]

I am in the market now for a hot tub/spa (these are interchangeable correct?) I have looked at Hot Springs and Marquis brands so far. My price range is no higher than $6300 and there are a few models from both the above mentioned brands that fit this price range. My questions are pretty simple. Is one of the above brands better than the other? Are there other brands I should look for in my area? I am looking for a 5 or 6 seater and I know I still need to wet-test in order to see if the lounger will work for me or not.

One other thing, when talking with salesman. Can you haggle with them for accessories, like cd player and other things like that or are hot tubs a no-haggle business? Thanks.

[thestallion]

I am in the market now for a hot tub/spa (these are interchangeable correct?) I have looked at Hot Springs and Marquis brands so far. My price range is no higher than $6300 and there are a few models from both the above mentioned brands that fit this price range. My questions are pretty simple. Is one of the above brands better than the other? Are there other brands I should look for in my area? I am looking for a 5 or 6 seater and I know I still need to wet-test in order to see if the lounger will work for me or not.

One other thing, when talking with salesman. Can you haggle with them for accessories, like cd player and other things like that or are hot tubs a no-haggle business? Thanks.

Both are highly respected and each will have their own fans. I do personally like one more than the other but both again are among the very best and at the top for all around spas. Build quality, support, service,therapy, etc. As for haggling each dealer does things differently. It is such a fine line to walk because most people say they want a straight forward no nonsense price but in the end MOST EVERYONE wants to deal or feel like they got something special. So just ask your dealer is this the best you can do, just be straight with them and I think most will do the same with you.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Both are highly respected and each will have their own fans. I do personally like one more than the other but both again are among the very best and at the top for all around spas. Build quality, support, service,therapy, etc. As for haggling each dealer does things differently. It is such a fine line to walk because most people say they want a straight forward no nonsense price but in the end MOST EVERYONE wants to deal or feel like they got something special. So just ask your dealer is this the best you can do, just be straight with them and I think most will do the same with you.

If you ask many people some will choose the Hot Springs and others the Marquis but most everyone will admit that both are very good spas (I'd ignore those that say neither are any good )

[hoopy]

Thanks for the replys. I noticed that with the Hot Springs model, it used many different types of jets. So you get a different feeling or spa massage with every seat you sit in. But with the Marquis, I noticed that all the jets were the same. Does this matter? Does this make the Hot Springs spa a better choice? Thanks.

[spa-freak]

Thanks for the replys. I noticed that with the Hot Springs model, it used many different types of jets. So you get a different feeling or spa massage with every seat you sit in. But with the Marquis, I noticed that all the jets were the same. Does this matter? Does this make the Hot Springs spa a better choice? Thanks.

I cannot speak about Marquis as there were none available to me when we purchased, but I have been very happy with my HS grandee. It has various jets making each seat a bit different than the next. I find that I can only stand the same jet pounding the same muscle in the same way for so long, so I tend to move around and get variety. In this way, I can get different sensations on different muscles. For our family, we like the variety in jets and even no jets at all (we tend to use the tub 75% without jets....just the warm water and peace and quiet.) Based on your above statement, I would have to say that a variety of jets would be prefered to just one jet type. But, I also have admitted that we use our tub sans jets most of the time so jets in general are of lesser importance to our family.

Your wet test will tell you how YOU like the jets....both brands are very good--

The HS grandee is the HS large version without the lounger. First, you will have to decide if you want a lounger tub or not. From reading posts it seems that folks either love or hate the lounger. We prefer a more "open seating" design as both adults and kids seem to move around in the tub alot and don't want to be hemmed in by deep, imprisoning seat designs. We would never sit still enough to use a lounger and wouldn't get one as they take up alot of tub room Once you have made that decision, you will be able to exclude alot of tubs out of consideration.

Finally, my personal experience as a consumer is that the hot tub biz is a price haggling world. Reading posts from around the USA and Canada it is clear that people are getting different pricing deals and various extras thrown in or excluded. I found that the salespeople are fairly aggressive and will follow up with you with lower prices if you give them the chance. I also found that I could play dealers of similar lines against each other and learned that if I wasn't happy, I could bring my business elsewhere. Dont be afraid to throw a low ball bid and walk out the door (leaving them your name and number). I did this on 3 occassions and had all 3 dealers call me back to "renegotiate". Things like delivery, start up chemicals and cover are always included so dont let them act like they are giving you the deal of the century with these offerings. Items like ozonator, cover lifter, steps, stereo, etc. are things to haggle over (or freebies to get if you decide to buy with them as opposed to their competitors). You as a consumer have lots of negotiating power (not to mention your biggest negotiating tool= the $10,000 in your bank account.

have fun shopping and let us know what you decide.

[thestallion]

I cannot speak about Marquis as there were none available to me when we purchased, but I have been very happy with my HS grandee. It has various jets making each seat a bit different than the next. I find that I can only stand the same jet pounding the same muscle in the same way for so long, so I tend to move around and get variety. In this way, I can get different sensations on different muscles. For our family, we like the variety in jets and even no jets at all (we tend to use the tub 75% without jets....just the warm water and peace and quiet.) Based on your above statement, I would have to say that a variety of jets would be prefered to just one jet type. But, I also have admitted that we use our tub sans jets most of the time so jets in general are of lesser importance to our family.

Your wet test will tell you how YOU like the jets....both brands are very good--

The HS grandee is the HS large version without the lounger. First, you will have to decide if you want a lounger tub or not. From reading posts it seems that folks either love or hate the lounger. We prefer a more "open seating" design as both adults and kids seem to move around in the tub alot and don't want to be hemmed in by deep, imprisoning seat designs. We would never sit still enough to use a lounger and wouldn't get one as they take up alot of tub room Once you have made that decision, you will be able to exclude alot of tubs out of consideration.

Finally, my personal experience as a consumer is that the hot tub biz is a price haggling world. Reading posts from around the USA and Canada it is clear that people are getting different pricing deals and various extras thrown in or excluded. I found that the salespeople are fairly aggressive and will follow up with you with lower prices if you give them the chance. I also found that I could play dealers of similar lines against each other and learned that if I wasn't happy, I could bring my business elsewhere. Dont be afraid to throw a low ball bid and walk out the door (leaving them your name and number). I did this on 3 occassions and had all 3 dealers call me back to "renegotiate". Things like delivery, start up chemicals and cover are always included so dont let them act like they are giving you the deal of the century with these offerings. Items like ozonator, cover lifter, steps, stereo, etc. are things to haggle over (or freebies to get if you decide to buy with them as opposed to their competitors). You as a consumer have lots of negotiating power (not to mention your biggest negotiating tool= the $10,000 in your bank account.

have fun shopping and let us know what you decide.

Marquis does use different jets also each seat will hit a different point of your body. Marquis HK40 jets offers the highest flow in the industry for a therapy jet. Both spas are very good if you can do yourself a favor and wet test both.

[hoopy]

Thanks for all the replies. What about an option like a sound system? Would something like this be haggleable? Is getting a sound system even worth it or would it be hardly used?

[A HELPING HAND]

Thanks for all the replies. What about an option like a sound system? Would something like this be haggleable? Is getting a sound system even worth it or would it be hardly used?

Both tubs are good, you wont have a problem enjoying either, but before you let options sway you check out the local rep, do they have parts, service, and a good reputation. Often times the person selling you the spa and backing up that sale can mean more than the brand of spa and deffinetly more than the options in it. In our area one spa store has numerous complaints with better business and several criminal complaints (36 counts of fraud) against them. Check out the company!

[Roger]

Thanks for all the replies. What about an option like a sound system? Would something like this be haggleable? Is getting a sound system even worth it or would it be hardly used?

Forget the sound system...get a boom box, a good one. It will work better and last longer.

[hoopy]

Yeah, I am thinking the same thing. I checked with some local dealers today and the sound system is about a $1000 option. One local dealer told me that the Hot Springs, Marquis, and Sundance are all full foam insulated. That a good thing or not?

[Jim_The_Jim]

Yeah, I am thinking the same thing. I checked with some local dealers today and the sound system is about a $1000 option. One local dealer told me that the Hot Springs, Marquis, and Sundance are all full foam insulated. That a good thing or not?

Full foam is not a good thing. There are several flaws with it.

http://www.xxxx.com/FullFoamVSThermallySealed.html

[Canadian Kahuna]

Thought about getting sound system when i was looking at tubs. Didn't end up getting one, think about it: high humidity and electronics. Don't really mix well, been in the sound business for 15 years now, and i don't care what kind of protection your sound system has from humidity, it just won't hold up like you may be led to believe. Like someone else said, get a boom box, or look at some outdoor speakers (Bose is one of the leaders if you want quality sound that will last) or even cheaper models can be good enough, and have your system indoors, possibly with a remote (if you have system inside and facing a window if that's a viable option). This way, only the speakers are exposed to the outdoor climate, and should they go you are not replacing an entire system.

[hoopy]

I don't want to start another full foam argument here and I have read the other posts about it. But if all the top manufacturers are using it, it must work. If there was another viable option, then why are the top manufacturers not using it? It makes sense to me that they could use that in their marketing to sell more spas (i.e. look at the 2006 models, they are better than the 2005 models because they are using newer TP technology that in tests have shown to be better than full foam.) But they don't and are not doing this, which tells me that full foam is still the best way to insulate. Is my method of thinking flawed here or should I begin to listen to Jim the Jim and his TP arguments?

[Jim_The_Jim]

I don't want to start another full foam argument here and I have read the other posts about it. But if all the top manufacturers are using it, it must work. If there was another viable option, then why are the top manufacturers not using it? It makes sense to me that they could use that in their marketing to sell more spas (i.e. look at the 2006 models, they are better than the 2005 models because they are using newer TP technology that in tests have shown to be better than full foam.) But they don't and are not doing this, which tells me that full foam is still the best way to insulate. Is my method of thinking flawed here or should I begin to listen to Jim the Jim and his TP arguments?

Here it is again for you. My comments are not arguments they are statement of facts, and experience.

Have you read any of the test reports for the side by side performed by independent companies and the one by the Universities of Colorado and Arizona?

It sounds to me that you start out with the idea the full foam is good, because you are some how attached to it. If you were to open your mind up just a little, you may be able to understand what I have written. I know that many consumer readers do, because I get calls from them all the time.

Full Foam is simply a bad concept and a bad thing to do to consumers on the first day that the thermally closed design was developed. That does not mean that people who own full foam spas are stupid, nor are you, just not informed correctly. The major spa companies have a vested interest in keeping the full foam myth in play, because it makes a lot of money. Like I said it is all about money and nothing else.

There is a huge difference between what you call and understand to be a thermal pane, like Catalina, or LA and what we do or what Arctic does or what the originators of the thermal lock did.

Typically a Catalina has foam on the shell, and some wood panels that are not sealed on the out side, with no foam on the bottom or no foam insulation boards on the walls or bottom. That is not a real cold weather design, but it does surprisingly well in cold weather for what it is. There is a slight benefit from the heat off the motors.

A "Thermally Closed" spa is a totally different beast from what you think. Take a look at our site and you may be able to understand.

Just as an example. Lets say that there are two spas side by side. Both have leaks, both are the same exact spa ,except one is stuffed with dense 2-pound density foam and the other is a thermally closed with removable panels, and light open cell 0.5 pound density foam on the shell. From my work in the hot tub repair in Colorado. The full foam would cost at least $400 to $600 to fix and the thermally Closed would be around $150.00 to $200.

There is no digging of foam to find the leak in a thermally closed design. The leak jumps out and is obvious where it is leaking from because the foam is open cell. Some of them are 20 minutes of time to fix. The longest part of the repair is driving to the site.

I have records of our spas and the time and effort on the repairs for manufacturing defects and leaks. I also have a fix em all service center in Colorado.

I remember on repair in particular in CT. The owner called me and said he could see water coming out from the "hot seat" area of his Springville model. We called a service company to go out and fix it. The service guy insisted that he needed $500 up front before he would go and look at it, because he is used to difficult leak repairs in full foam.

I told him that it could not be more than $200 to fix it at his rates. After talking with him for a while and becoming comfortable with his skills, I gave him a credit card number and he went to the customers home. It took him exactly 15 minutes to fix it. The owner timed him for me, because I asked him to. It was a leak on a barbed jet fitting that was not assembled correctly. All the repair guy did was reach for the fittting, because it was obvous, and cut the tubing off and re-glue and re-clamp it. Apparently the person who assembled it did not push the tubing on far enough onto the jet fitting.

He also did not need any of the parts we sent. We design the spas so that you can reuse the existing parts as much as possible.

In the full foam spa, with closed cell foam, the foam will trail the water to locations away from the leak, towards the bottom of the spa, or whatever path it finds. This makes finding the leak the hardest part. I have seen guys who developed extreme methods for finding leaks, and they still take a long time to find the source. As you may know, you cannot fix the leak until you actually see it leaking from the point of the defect. This is hours of work. A Catalina spa is not much faster, because of the foam they use.

There is a big difference between what we do and what a typical thermal pane spa is.

I am sure the upcharge at LA or Catalina is about the same as it is with our factory for a full foam spa. They charge me a lot more for the extra work to install perimeter insulation boards all the way around because it takes time and they use a couple of people to do it. By the time we are finished with the cabinet it is over 300% more costly to produce than the full foam.

Here is an exerpt from the Tong and Rogers report from the universitys of Colorado and Arizona. This statement is what caused me to get deeply involved in furthering the thermally closed design. The air cavity must be sealed from any cold air infusion for it to work this way. That is not what Catalina or LA does nor most of the so called "thermal pane" spas. Those are only partially insulated.

"a fully insulated spa {full foam} makes no attempt to recover and use waste heat." (Tong and Rogers 1996). "...the performance of an insulating system which makes use of a thermal barrier, generated by waste heat rejected from the motors and pumps, in an enclosed air cavity around the tub is superior to a system which simply insulates the tub directly."

Thanks for asking good questions. I hope you can take the time to understand what I have written. If you are a typical full foam salesman, you will not be able to absorb this easily.

[Canadian Kahuna]

Just a little note on the full foam vs TP. I live where the environment can become very harsh and cold for most of the year (below zero celcius often in september, reaching down to -40 for several weeks at a time through December and January, actually had -40 the other day here, and often staying below freezing until well into May . . . have had a few fishing trips in May where the ice had JUST come off the lakes). Most of my friends that own a tub own Arctic Spa because they are designed for our climate. They do offer a warranty on freeze up (at least here they do, and it's in my warranty) for a period of 5 or 7 days (i'll have to check my book again) in the event of a power failure. The costs of operating an Arctic Spa in this climate is typically between $5 to $10 cheaper per month than any of the full foam spas around (again, friends and relatives i know that own the full foam spas talking about costs). These are not independant studies by firms, but to me are reliable sources, and all based on similar usage with similar sized tubs. But the more drastic difference in operating costs seems to be more noticable only during the colder months. During the warmer months, operating costs only differ by mere pennies, maybe a dollar on occasion which could be due to less usage in one tub vs. the other, so are basically equal in the summer season. Also, take a look at the geographics of where most spas are sold. I'm willing to bet that more people own a spa in areas more south of me than those who own one here, people don't think of having a spa outside in the winter as a pleasureable experience until they try it (like myself, i've always thought of hot tubs being only indoors at hotels, in a gazebo, etc until i actually looked into it). So if the majority of buyers are not from a cold, harsh climate, why make a tub geared towards them? It only makes sense that the manufacturers would build a tub that targets the area more are sold, thus full foam.

I'm not saying here TP is better, and i'm not saying FF is not good, both work, but each one works better in certain environments from everything i've seen and been told by dealers and owners of each type. I'd still stick with my Arctic even if i was in a warmer climate though, simply because i love thier jets, seats, general set up of the whole thing. The FF vs TP was only a small part of my final decision. When you pay $9,000 Cdn for a tub, the $5 per month operational cost difference between tubs is so small (pack of smokes is almost $10 here, case of beer between $35 - $60) that it's only a tiny factor in deciding on what spa to buy. So why argue so much about FF vs TP? Each has pros and cons. Yes, i prefer TP for the reasons: I can add jets easily if i want, it's a little cheaper to run in my climate, it's easy to find leaks, it is known to help keep your tub from freezing up for a little longer of a period should the GFCI be tripped or power failure (especially in this climate) but that is arguable, just to name a few. But i don't think FF are crap either, my father in law has one and it's a great spa as well. Should independant tests be done and the public is notified that one type is better than the other in the next few years (and i'm sure this will be done due to all the debate) then so be it. But for now, i'm going to enjoy the nice hot arctic spa in my back yard while it's -40 out there, having a few drinks with some friends, and maybe tomorrow i'll head over and visit my in-laws (keep a spare suit there too) and sit in the nice warm FF spa while the wife, kids, and I have some good quality family time . . . I doubt we'll debate FF vs TP, but my 2 year old could surprise us.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Just a little note on the full foam vs TP. I live where the environment can become very harsh and cold for most of the year (below zero celcius often in september, reaching down to -40 for several weeks at a time through December and January, actually had -40 the other day here, and often staying below freezing until well into May . . . have had a few fishing trips in May where the ice had JUST come off the lakes). Most of my friends that own a tub own Arctic Spa because they are designed for our climate. They do offer a warranty on freeze up (at least here they do, and it's in my warranty) for a period of 5 or 7 days (i'll have to check my book again) in the event of a power failure. The costs of operating an Arctic Spa in this climate is typically between $5 to $10 cheaper per month than any of the full foam spas around (again, friends and relatives i know that own the full foam spas talking about costs). These are not independant studies by firms, but to me are reliable sources, and all based on similar usage with similar sized tubs. But the more drastic difference in operating costs seems to be more noticable only during the colder months. During the warmer months, operating costs only differ by mere pennies, maybe a dollar on occasion which could be due to less usage in one tub vs. the other, so are basically equal in the summer season. Also, take a look at the geographics of where most spas are sold. I'm willing to bet that more people own a spa in areas more south of me than those who own one here, people don't think of having a spa outside in the winter as a pleasureable experience until they try it (like myself, i've always thought of hot tubs being only indoors at hotels, in a gazebo, etc until i actually looked into it). So if the majority of buyers are not from a cold, harsh climate, why make a tub geared towards them? It only makes sense that the manufacturers would build a tub that targets the area more are sold, thus full foam.

I'm not saying here TP is better, and i'm not saying FF is not good, both work, but each one works better in certain environments from everything i've seen and been told by dealers and owners of each type. I'd still stick with my Arctic even if i was in a warmer climate though, simply because i love thier jets, seats, general set up of the whole thing. The FF vs TP was only a small part of my final decision. When you pay $9,000 Cdn for a tub, the $5 per month operational cost difference between tubs is so small (pack of smokes is almost $10 here, case of beer between $35 - $60) that it's only a tiny factor in deciding on what spa to buy. So why argue so much about FF vs TP? Each has pros and cons. Yes, i prefer TP for the reasons: I can add jets easily if i want, it's a little cheaper to run in my climate, it's easy to find leaks, it is known to help keep your tub from freezing up for a little longer of a period should the GFCI be tripped or power failure (especially in this climate) but that is arguable, just to name a few. But i don't think FF are crap either, my father in law has one and it's a great spa as well. Should independant tests be done and the public is notified that one type is better than the other in the next few years (and i'm sure this will be done due to all the debate) then so be it. But for now, i'm going to enjoy the nice hot arctic spa in my back yard while it's -40 out there, having a few drinks with some friends, and maybe tomorrow i'll head over and visit my in-laws (keep a spare suit there too) and sit in the nice warm FF spa while the wife, kids, and I have some good quality family time . . . I doubt we'll debate FF vs TP, but my 2 year old could surprise us.

Just a note for the readers; -40 Celcius which equals = -40 F also. That is friggin cold!! At -25 F (-31.6 C) I stop going out side, even then I breath inside my parka. The air is so cold it hurts to breath it.

The other factors are the size and horsepower of the jet pumps, surface area of the water, type of cover, and if the spa has air injection or turbo air.

Our Canada bound spas in the east and mid get a special extra layer of thermal foil, making for a total of five layers of air chambers.

In Colorado, the difference is between $30 and $100 per month in Dec through Feb, depending on the brand, hours of use and how severe the cold is. CS are notorious for high energy consumption.

[Roger]

The costs of operating an Arctic Spa in this climate is typically between $5 to $10 cheaper per month than any of the full foam spas around (again, friends and relatives i know that own the full foam spas talking about costs). These are not independant studies by firms, but to me are reliable sources, and all based on similar usage with similar sized tubs. But the more drastic difference in operating costs seems to be more noticable only during the colder months. During the warmer months, operating costs only differ by mere pennies, maybe a dollar on occasion which could be due to less usage in one tub vs. the other, so are basically equal in the summer season.

THis is a total 100 percent crock of hog wash. A Hot Spring Tub with the same thickness cover as the Arctic will be less to operate. And I hate Hot Spring. Arctics own independent test showed this.

Here in Northern Minnesota an Arctic cost the same if not a bit more than some of the other brands. We all buy cover upgrades as that is a very important part.

Please do not base your decision on the words of a couple who are telling you the TP style of insulation is better (as if there justifying there purchase or what they sell). Proponants of FF will tell you to base your decision on comfort with the dealer and on your backside. Propononts of TP will tell you it's cheaper to operate and fix a TP tub. And this is simply not true. Both styles of insulation have there pluses and minuses and should not be your deciding factor.

[hoopy]

Thanks for the replies. I agree that FF vs. TP should not be a deciding factor when choosing a hot tub. Let me ask this then, with a 220 line installed and running to the hot tub, what is the risk of it tripping and shutting down power to the hot tub? This to me sounds like a big concern as I don't want to be checking the GFCI every hour to see if it's still on. Is this a major concern? How do most of you handle this?

[Canadian Kahuna]

THis is a total 100 percent crock of hog wash. A Hot Spring Tub with the same thickness cover as the Arctic will be less to operate. And I hate Hot Spring. Arctics own independent test showed this.

Here in Northern Minnesota an Arctic cost the same if not a bit more than some of the other brands. We all buy cover upgrades as that is a very important part.

Please do not base your decision on the words of a couple who are telling you the TP style of insulation is better (as if there justifying there purchase or what they sell). Proponants of FF will tell you to base your decision on comfort with the dealer and on your backside. Propononts of TP will tell you it's cheaper to operate and fix a TP tub. And this is simply not true. Both styles of insulation have there pluses and minuses and should not be your deciding factor.

Roger, I never said TP is better, as a matter of fact, you could have quoted that i said exactly what you did, each has it's pros and cons. And i also said that the operating costs were what was reported by personal friends and family of each type of spa. You also failed to notice that i said my father in-law owns a FF tub that we also use often, and i stated that we enjoyed that as well. What i was trying to get across mostly was why argue so much over FF vs TP, it makes such a small factor in the final buying decision. Northern Minnesota huh? I'm not far off from ya then . . . been there a lot . . . do any deer hunting? Clocked one a few years back with my car just outside Grand Marais . . . too damn many of them, please hunt them, lol.

[thestallion]

Thanks for the replies. I agree that FF vs. TP should not be a deciding factor when choosing a hot tub. Let me ask this then, with a 220 line installed and running to the hot tub, what is the risk of it tripping and shutting down power to the hot tub? This to me sounds like a big concern as I don't want to be checking the GFCI every hour to see if it's still on. Is this a major concern? How do most of you handle this?

If your wiring is done right and your tub has no problems than it should be of no issue at all.....It trips only when there is a problem and that is its job.

[Roger]

Roger, I never said TP is better, as a matter of fact, you could have quoted that i said exactly what you did, each has it's pros and cons. And i also said that the operating costs were what was reported by personal friends and family of each type of spa. You also failed to notice that i said my father in-law owns a FF tub that we also use often, and i stated that we enjoyed that as well. What i was trying to get across mostly was why argue so much over FF vs TP, it makes such a small factor in the final buying decision. Northern Minnesota huh? I'm not far off from ya then . . . been there a lot . . . do any deer hunting? Clocked one a few years back with my car just outside Grand Marais . . . too damn many of them, please hunt them, lol.

You did however say that an Arctic is 5-10 bucks a month less to operate than any other FF spa. This is simply not true. I have plenty of experience also, my neighbor owns an Arctic and it does not cost less than any of the FF in my neighborhood in fact it cost a bit more than most. This is a FF town (Duluth) and I do not think this is the best for here, just one option. All the dealers here push for a cover upgrade, this is a good thing. Personaly even though I hate to admit this because my design is a bit different, I prefer a insulation skeem similar to Jim's. He has his own notions regarding how much foam should be on the shell itself (as does Arctic) but my test's show that unless you are going to increase filtering over what you truely need to keep your water clean (which shortens the motors life expectancy) or if your going to add a pump and motor big enough to create enough heat to stop the heat loss which also adds cost, and another motor that is thrown into a hot invironment and uses more power to run than say a small circulation pump that is inexpensive, easy to replace and a power miser. The down time (when the pump motor is not generating any heat) or the majority of the day, 16-20 hrs, our goal should be to hold heat in the vessel and figure out how to prevent the water in the lines around the equipment from reaching the point just above freezing where the heater kicks in. Minimize the heat loss from the vessel, minimize heater usage, minimize pump run time and do all this affordable, good one huh. Right now here in Duluth a small circulation pump to move water 24/7 and introduce ozone 24/7 is the most economical, as long as the circ. pump is inexpensive easy to replace and the entire vessel is foamed to the cabinet and the equipment area is also insulated, not unlike some brands that I think are way overpriced that I will not mention that do not have all the factors I listed. But this skeem is also the toughest for the average homeowner Joe because he don't want to remove insulation in the spring and replace it again in the fall. So a new design needs to be created, and the Arctic design is not the answer either, though better than alot, just not the answer.

A foam insulated vessel, 3/4 or 1/2 foam if you will, an R20 or better cabinet wall no willy nilly vent holes, completely sealed with sealed dampers that only allow air in when it is called for (air blower or cooling fan) Thermostaticly controlled for summer months to keep the motor cool and duct work to dirrect air where it needs to go to do what it needs to do, supply a blower or cool a pump motor. And all this affordable surrounding a fiberglass backed acrylic shell, with componants that are readily avalable in case you need one and easy to get to in case one breaks. By the way this cabinet wall insulation should be attatched and overlapped to the removable side panels, all 4 of them. With a sealing surface top and bottom to make it virtualy air tight.

And by the way, I do not deer hunt. I spend time at the shack but I do not hunt for deer. Groose, walleye, trout and a few other things but not deer. To many drunk or hungover people in the woods with high power rifles for me. I do however love Isle Royal and the Lakers that hang around there. Got some great storys from there.

Thanks for the replies. I agree that FF vs. TP should not be a deciding factor when choosing a hot tub. Let me ask this then, with a 220 line installed and running to the hot tub, what is the risk of it tripping and shutting down power to the hot tub? This to me sounds like a big concern as I don't want to be checking the GFCI every hour to see if it's still on. Is this a major concern? How do most of you handle this?

A failed ozonator tripped mine once in 4 years, discovered it the next day in Feb. no problem. It also tripped once when we had a party, water must of overflowed or something and got the control board wet. Never did figure that one out but after a reset it worked fine.

I walk past my tub every day out the door to work and it filters when I leave and when I come home so I can hear it. I know what your thinking that's a long day and you are right. In the dead of winter I would reccomend checking your tub everyday untill your confidence is up. No matter what brand you choose.

[Jim_The_Jim]

THis is a total 100 percent crock of hog wash. A Hot Spring Tub with the same thickness cover as the Arctic will be less to operate. And I hate Hot Spring. Arctics own independent test showed this.

Here in Northern Minnesota an Arctic cost the same if not a bit more than some of the other brands. We all buy cover upgrades as that is a very important part.

Please do not base your decision on the words of a couple who are telling you the TP style of insulation is better (as if there justifying there purchase or what they sell). Proponants of FF will tell you to base your decision on comfort with the dealer and on your backside. Propononts of TP will tell you it's cheaper to operate and fix a TP tub. And this is simply not true. Both styles of insulation have there pluses and minuses and should not be your deciding factor.

Roger; A thermally closed spa with exactly the same equipment, jets, diverters, shell size, cover thickness, and so forth will be less to run on electricity than any full foam spa as they make them right now with exactly the same equipment.

A thermally closed design is just superior in all ways.

The Arctic spa won the test, and it wasn't even run like it should have been and it has more jets, more Horse Power and a much higher watt circulation mode . I could have gotten 20% less electricity consumption during the freezer test if they just put the pump on all the time, stoping the use of the electric heater. By the way running a pump continuously 24 hours will make it last longer than to keep starting it over and over on filter and heat cycles.

If you want to go over that again, I will explain it for you in detail. Both the motors and the seals do well if you leave it run.

It is the design that is superior. If you take the same mold and make one a thermally closed, and one a full foam, The full foam will always lose in energy consumption and freeze down time, because it does not take advantage of the energy in the entire spa.

It also has to be run according to what I tell my customers. If it is colder outside run the circulation pump more it saves energy and makes the pump last longer.

This is not a personal attack it is just the facts.

[Canadian Kahuna]

Looks like the debate is still going, lol. Seems that it is more a matter of personal preference. And like i said, the Arctics seem to be cheaper to run in our climate than most FF brands, now that is going only on what i've heard about operating costs from friends that own both types of tubs, there was no "controlled study" done here, and i'm sure it did not cover ALL brands of tubs out on the market, so there is obviously room for error in calculating costs. It just seemed to me that the TP did better after what i heard from friends, i'm not taking sides on either, but love my spa, regardless of FF or TP, because it was the best spa to fit my family's needs as well as my own in terms of seating comfort, jets, etc . . . another company that was FF was a close runner up, but i did not go with it because the seating and jets didn't fit what i wanted, not because it was FF.

Roger, lucky bugger, would love to go to Isle Royal sometime, desperately want to dive the America and the bow of the Congdon, but especially the Emperor (yeah, i like the deep ones, Superior is definitely superior when it comes to wrecks, just damn cold, but well worth it with the prestine condition of them all). (In T.Bay here, worked as an instructor for several years). After a chilly day diving, i really don't care if it's FF or TP, just get me in some hot water ;-)

[Roger]

Roger, lucky bugger, would love to go to Isle Royal sometime, desperately want to dive the America and the bow of the Congdon, but especially the Emperor (yeah, i like the deep ones, Superior is definitely superior when it comes to wrecks, just damn cold, but well worth it with the prestine condition of them all). (In T.Bay here, worked as an instructor for several years). After a chilly day diving, i really don't care if it's FF or TP, just get me in some hot water ;-)

Yes the debate will go on and on. Jim seems to think that if he keeps shoving his opinion down my throat that it will somehow be so. He will call if fact and say I need to learn, when he really don't have the slightest clue what I do know. Even though I have repeatedly said he seems like he knows spa's just not PR.

And quit bringing up that Arctic test you know as well as I do the results were flawed. But you could never ever admit that if all factors were equal your nemisis would of come out on top. That would simply kill you, and you know I don't like that brand either.

How about a spa that only runs twice a day Jim to filter. This is the only time other than when you are using it that it runs. It does all its filtering and heating to catch up at the same time as it filters. No going on and off as you state that is hard on electronics. But my sources say it is a wash depending on how many times it goes on and off, the wear running 24/7 is worse than the right electronics going on and off a monitored and limited time. No running continualy using power. Just twice a day and when you are using it. Interesting concept huh Jim? And it looses very little heat no matter how cold it is, so it only has to catch up a few degrees. Simple huh. Put a 5-6 tapered cover on it and oh yea loads of foam, but not to much so as it can be repaired easily in the very rare time it needs it, if it ever does. My spa Jim. 181 KWH last month. Average temp.........36 And it just keeps getting colder.

The ideas just keep flowing from me sometimes...can't help it, Kinda like Einstein!!!!......just kidding.

Our charter guy parked us right on top of the America, said something about a model T still sitting in the hold? Kinda wierd feeling. Awsome scenery. Moose walking the shoreline everywhere. 25 mile boat ride out so you better have a big boat is what our captain said his is 42 ft.

[Jim_The_Jim]

How about a spa that only runs twice a day Jim to filter. This is the only time other than when you are using it that it runs. It does all its filtering and heating to catch up at the same time as it filters. No going on and off as you state that is hard on electronics. But my sources say it is a wash depending on how many times it goes on and off, the wear running 24/7 is worse than the right electronics going on and off a monitored and limited time. No running continualy using power. Just twice a day and when you are using it. Interesting concept huh Jim? And it looses very little heat no matter how cold it is, so it only has to catch up a few degrees. Simple huh. Put a 5-6 tapered cover on it and oh yea loads of foam, but not to much so as it can be repaired easily in the very rare time it needs it, if it ever does. My spa Jim. 181 KWH last month. Average temp.........36 And it just keeps getting colder.

I like your approach, but it is not practical at the present time and more expensive than need be for a production spa.

The problem with a spa that filters twice a day is that in between the filter cycles the pump comes on to heat the spa because it will lose some heat and cause the heater to come on (one hour of heater 6 KW is equal to about 8 to nine hours of pump running). That increases the pump switching, starting and the shaft seal wear.

You can lengthen the time between heater/pump starts by putting more insulation on the outer wall of the cabinet, but there is a point of diminishing return on costs both in manufacturing and in cost of operation.

The idea is to eliminate the use of chemicals as much as you can as well. If you can run the ozone longer and filter longer, you use less oxidizers, reducing the overall cost for products. The whole idea is to run the spa efficiently and have better water. Actually the whole point is to have better water filtering AND less electric consumption.

Each time a motor starts there are a few events that take place on most motors and control boxes. The strongest surge on the relays in the spa pack is when the motor starts. The strongest wear on the motor is when it starts. The more often the starts, the shorter the life of the circuit board (switches) and the motor. The shaft seal wears more if it is started 4 times a day and run for 6 hours than to run 24 hours.

A shaft seal operated in the following manner. When it is stopped it's "rubber" rests on a piece of ceramic. When it starts up it has to speed up with friction and wear until it "hydroplanes" on the ceramic disk. Once is it up to speed it is basicall riding on water pockets created by the pockets of water in the ceramic surface. Each time it stops it comes to a screaching hault on the ceramic and each time it starts it "burns rubber" until it comes up to hydroplane speeds.

Motors and circuit boards last longer if there is less starting and less arcing of the switches and points. The thermal conditions in the motor are stabilized by constant running, equalling less expansion and contraction fo the materials used in the motors.

I have a customer with super old Sonoma spa with a Haward that only runs twenty four hours a day. No time clock and the motors are fine after 14 years with one seal kit replacement. This is what we in the trade call a "home made" pack. Some of the old timers used to make spa packs from PVC pipe 2 inch heaters screwed into a threaded reducer bushing into a 2.5 inch TEE and a 2.5 inch Solid pipe. They put the switches in a plastic box attached to the 2 inch heater and the whole thing rested on top of the pump. The simplest control systems on earth. The pump is on either high or low, never off. The heater operates with a simple thermostat, pressure switch, and a high limit. These are often sitting outside the spa in a little "dog house" as we call them. This is a very old way of building spas.

Same set up on a customer with an old FPI spa and a Jacuzzi pump. Ten years with one seal replacement.

I had a customer in Boone, NC who was using the spa twice a day for on hour each time in winter. They had it set to two 4 hour cycles of filteing per day. They called me and asked me how they could reduce their electric consumption in winter at 14 hours per week of use, vs normal of less than three or four hours per week that is normal. I told them to set the pump to run 24 hours and the electric use dropped 20% in the next month which was a colder month.

The reason is simple. The heater use was completely eliminated during the time the spa was covered and not used by bathers, and there was a 100% thermal warm air barrier stopping all the heat loss out of the sides of the vessel. As long as the air temperature inside the cabinet is warmer than the spa water, there is no heat loss out of the vessel, actually the heat from the pumps is being transferred into the spa water. This makes the equipment last longer. The heater use is diminshed the starts and stops on the equipment is reduced and the costs for repairs is reduced.

Independent studies done by two universities ( Colorado and Arizona State Universities 1996) have found that using the waste heat generated by the equipment and transferring it into the spa's water is more efficient than filling the spa's cabinet with foam. Here is an excerpt from the report. "a fully insulated spa {full foam} makes no attempt to recover and use waste heat." (Tong and Rogers 1996). "...the performance of an insulating system which makes use of a thermal barrier, generated by waste heat rejected from the motors and pumps, in an enclosed air cavity around the tub is superior to a system which simply insulates the tub directly."