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2005 Sundance Capri hi temp error


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Getting hi temp and spa turning off.  Replaced the temp sensor that resides in the filter well.  Still had problem.  Replaced the hi limit sensor that is in the heater and the control panel says 106 F but the water is more like 103 F.  Could the control panel be bad or the circuit board?  i noticed a high limit disk in the heater when changing out the hi limit sensor. Could that be the problem?  The hot tub is 2005 but been working just fine.  Have had to replace the flow switch once and the temp sensor many years ago.  Always had it running year round in CA.  Kept the flow motor 24/7.  

Let me know your thoughts

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UPDATE:  Just checked the spa after replacing the hi temp sensor and it is still showing HI temp error and the temp is at 110 F.  

Does this mean the heater is bad or maybe just the high limit disk?  Maybe after 15 years the heater is bad?  One other thing I noticed is that after turning off the power to look at things and turning it back on the heater makes a gurgling sound for awhile and then stops.  Then the jets turn on.  Is that normal?

Thanks

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I just checked it with a thermometer that says 107.5 and the display says 108 flashing with OH error.  So I guess the display is correct.  

i just wonder if there is a reset parameter that has to be reset after replacing the hi temp sensor.  I know there are reset procedures for this model but the youtube video on it always goes to fast for my old brain.  Anyone have them in writing?

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Sounds like a stuck heater relay to me. Actually overheating, heating before the circ pump engages causing boilout (the gurgling noise), OH error but no watchdog (----). 🤔 Yep. Stuck relay.

There are 3 relays for the heater. One is controlled by the thermostat circuit and is the switch for the heater. The other two are on the hi-limit circuit and are closed any time the temperature in the heater is below 118, or maybe 112, I don't exactly recall. Obviously, one wears out and heats up much faster than the others. I suspect that one has stuck in the closed position and now your heater is on until it reaches temp to trigger the high limit. 

Post a pic of the circuit board, then remove the mounting screws and check the back for dark spots. You shouldn't have to remove (much of) the wiring to get a look.

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So these relays are on the circuit board.  Can they be replaced by themselves or does the whole circuit board have to be replaced? 

I left the hot tub cover off last night and this morning it is at 108 with OH flashing.  The water feels like 108 too.  The bummer is that at that temp none of the jets work except when it goes through the cycle every 6 hours.

I guess for 15 years and hardly any problems I shouldn't complain.

Are those circuit boards expensive?  Will attach pic of circuit board.

Now in getting the pictures I noticed the three relays down on the bottom (pic 2) that have heavy gauge wires (240v).  I banged on those and the OH went away and the temp went down to 106 and I assume will fall down to 104.  I have a heat temp gun and before I did this aimed it at the relays.  The middle one was at 110 and the other two lower around 100.  After banging on them the middle one went down to around  104.  So I am assuming these are the heater relays as they are controlling 240v.  Can these be replaced on the board by soldering in new ones or are they not sold and you have to buy the board?

Maybe banging on them will fix the problem for awhile...one can only hope.

Your thoughts, Please!

hot tub 3.png

hot tub 2.png

hot tub 1.png

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OK to RDspaguy.  I got the spa down to 102 even though the set temp is set at 104.  The heater icon is on so I know it must be trying to heat up the water.  I used my heat gun temp measuring tool and measured the K1, 2 and 3 relays and all three of them were in the mid 85 degrees range.  Not sure if they are back to normal or not.  I measured these three before and the K2 was about 110 so maybe it was stuck at that time.  

Would love to see a write up on how this circuit board functions.  I used to work as an engineer for IBM back when relays actually were a part of computers.  Back in the 60s...yes that old!!  Amazon sells the board 

Nice price of $686!!  Yikes.  Still would like to just replace the three relays.  I have the soldering skills to do that if they are available somehow.  Maybe someone out there has a spa that was trashed for another reason and wants to sell some of the parts??

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1 hour ago, contact634 said:

here in Canada I got a whole bunch of spare parts for my 2001 sundance altamar on Kijji  scored a like new lcd control panel for $65.00  it IS a gamble through you could easily get ripped off  I've been fine so far

I have to wait and see how this thing keeps running.  I am pretty sure the relays are on the way out.  Just tapping on them changed the OH error and put things back to somewhat normal.  To bad someone isn't selling those relays.  Should not be that hard to solder in new ones.  If you hear of anyone selling one of those boards let me know.

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There is a guy on eBay that reworks the boards and sells them for $320.  May just go that route as it is half the price of a new one.  I mean I have almost spend no money on this spa over 15 yrs.  Twice I have replaced the temp sensor and that is about it other than normal filters etc..  

What do you think?  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Spa-control-Sundance-Jacuzzi-spa-circuit-board-6600-092/163649527419?hash=item261a459e7b:g:IYwAAOSwl4xecng6

 

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10 hours ago, RDspaguy said:

I think any computer repair guy will do it for $150 or less, and the relays are about $5 each.  

How can I found out what the relay part numbers are?  Are they stamped on the relays?  They should.  I worked for 25 years for IBM and my son is a computer tech who is really good at soldering and removing components.  I just will need to figure out the correct relay part numbers and order them.  I have not seen any that cheap but I am probable not looking at the right ones on that site another guy sent me. 

Zettler makes most spa relays

https://hottubpartsofamerica.com/search.php?search_query=relays.

thanks for the advice

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I think I found the relays needed.  The question is do I need to replace all three?  I wish I had a full diagram showing which relays have the highest voltage and current through them.  I will remove the board enough to see which relay has left a hot mark on the backside.  Maybe that will decide.  

This morning I used my meter and checked the out put to the heater and it was 0v.  There was 230v going into the relays but they work in a daisy chain and not sure which ones are controlled by what?  Obviously other sensors control turning these on and off.  
So I tried tapping on the relays to see if the voltage on the output would show up but nothing showed.  

My fear is to replace all three and find out it is a controlling signal that is at fault...

Thanks for your advice!!

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On 10/24/2020 at 2:47 AM, RDspaguy said:

There are 3 relays for the heater. One is controlled by the thermostat circuit and is the switch for the heater. The other two are on the hi-limit circuit and are closed any time the temperature in the heater is below 118, or maybe 112, I don't exactly recall.

The two high limit controlled relays are one on each leg, and the thermostat relay (the one that always fails, as it is the only one that will arc when the heater turns on and off) is one of the wire bridged relays. The high limit relays will both close as soon as power is turned on before the heater is ever turned on. So use your tester to find the two relays that are closed with no call for heat.

Anything that will cause your control system to turn off the heater will display an error on the topside. It could be a bad board, but it's highly unlikely.

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55 minutes ago, RDspaguy said:

The two high limit controlled relays are one on each leg, and the thermostat relay (the one that always fails, as it is the only one that will arc when the heater turns on and off) is one of the wire bridged relays. The high limit relays will both close as soon as power is turned on before the heater is ever turned on. So use your tester to find the two relays that are closed with no call for heat.

Anything that will cause your control system to turn off the heater will display an error on the topside. It could be a bad board, but it's highly unlikely.

I think on this board it is the center K2 relay.  When it was stuck I measure the heat on it at 113 and the other two down in the 80s.  I will check this out on the diagram.  Thanks for the help!!!

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23 hours ago, RDspaguy said:

The two high limit controlled relays are one on each leg, and the thermostat relay (the one that always fails, as it is the only one that will arc when the heater turns on and off) is one of the wire bridged relays. The high limit relays will both close as soon as power is turned on before the heater is ever turned on. So use your tester to find the two relays that are closed with no call for heat.

Anything that will cause your control system to turn off the heater will display an error on the topside. It could be a bad board, but it's highly unlikely.

OK I measured and K3 was closed but K1 and K2 still open.  The heater icon was on but no voltage to the heater.  I then turned off the breaker and turned it back on and the same.  The water temp shows 89 so I also turned the set temp below that.  I heard a click and thought the relay closed but still both relays remained open.  Voltage into K1 and then ties over to K2 which outputs to the other side of the heater.  Apparently K1 and K2 both need replacing.  I tapped on both to see if they got stuck but no change.  

Your thoughts

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One thing I wanted to try and actually sent a message to a company that sells the relays, is where to drill a small hole to spray contact cleaner inside the relay to see if that would possible help...then put a drop of silicone over the hole.  Nothing to lose if it does not work.  With both relays not working right makes me wonder if the board is bad.

 

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1 hour ago, RDspaguy said:

Remove the board and check the back for burns.

The relay covers are sometimes removeable. But a spray won't help in any case.

Yes I need to do that and  look to see if there are burns.  Would be cool if the covers did pop off.  If they did I could play and see if the relays are stuck or not getting voltage to activate the relay.  That is my other fear is that something on the board is not signaling the relay.  I guess a not so cheap guy would just buy a new board and replace the whole thing.  I am the guy who wants to know why things fail and is there a way to fix them.  Guess it was my upbringing not having any money and if you could not fix it you did without.  I have asked the question with the people who sell the relays.  Will see what they come back with.  I may also see if the covers do pop off.  I have a feeling they are glued but who knows without one in my hand.

Thanks again for all your advice.

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A board failure on the low voltage side is rare, and is usually the transformer, but can happen. And any condition that the board was turning it off for would trigger an error on the display. You, or an electronics repair guy, can test the coil on those relays from the back of the board at the solder points. Just lightly scrape the plastic coating to expose the solder and take an ohm reading.

I would have the repair done by a pro. You only get one chance to screw it up, then you're buying a new board.

To prevent this from ever happening again, add 2 relays (one on each heater leg) controlled by the heater circuit from the board but with a separate power feed. Then your board relays never carry more than the small fraction of an amp that the auxiliary relay coils draw, and last forever (or so). What wears out is the 30 amp independent relays you installed. You can do it with only one dpst relay, but you risk a catastrophic overheat from a stuck relay. Better to use 2.

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I see that the board P/N 6600-092 is no long available and changed to 6600-730.  Do you know what the change is?  Maybe they have fixed this problem.  I have to say that having it last 15yrs is not a problem if I do replace the board.  At 74 yrs old I am not sure 15 more yrs is a problem.  

Boards are $320 on eBay from a guy who re-conditions them.  I just need to find out if he replaces the relays when doing that.  He guarantees them and says they are fully tested since he does not like returns.

Thanks again.

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I am sure he replaces faulty relays, and that's probably it. The question is, did he replace the ones that HAVEN'T failed yet? For $320, I would hope so, since your local electronics repair guy will likely replace all the relays for half that.

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4 hours ago, RDspaguy said:

I am sure he replaces faulty relays, and that's probably it. The question is, did he replace the ones that HAVEN'T failed yet? For $320, I would hope so, since your local electronics repair guy will likely replace all the relays for half that.

Well I am that electronics guy so what you suggest is to replace all three relays.  That makes sense.  My concern is after 15yrs other parts could also be going bad.  Just that a new board, 6600-730 is $686 on Amazon.  UGH!

I think messing with the three relays is my next move.

Thanks

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