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Chemistry with a bromine salt system


darkmyst

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13 hours ago, darkmyst said:

Update: Bromine eventually started generating. It's at night now, and I just got home, but it looks like after the Gentle Spa was added to approximately 50ppm borates, and after 30 minutes of jets, the pH appears to be around 7.8. I'm not sure if I should make further efforts to lower this to closer to 7.6 or 7.4? If yes, do I secure it with additional borates by lowering to 7.0 or so and adding more? Or am I being too picky and let it rest at 7.8?  I will check it again in the morning, I only have an inside light to hold it against.

Bromine is high. Apparently when it started working, it started working really well - probably as a result of the increased effectiveness due to the lower pH. So, I'm going to let the tub sit and release bromine. Ideas to help reduce bromine would be great.

There's a bit of foam, very loose and bubbly like what you'd see in a regular tub with bubbles.  It's not a lot, but enough to be slightly annoying. This existed before the high bromine too. I don't use any soaps in the spa while cleaning it, so I'm wondering if this may be residual foam from the Ahh-Some or something, but I did make sure to drain the tub to the bottom... and my pump gets it down to about 1/4 or a 1/2 inch, so there wasn't much left in the tub water itself... I'm hoping this eventually goes away.

I turned off the bromine generator last night and tested again this morning, it’s now reading 0. I also ran out of DPD powder, so I’ll have to wait to get that. 
 

The red color of the pH indicator with the Taylor test isn’t easily identifiable so I’m going to swing by the pool store to have their equipment read it. I’ll update when I have news. 

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13 hours ago, darkmyst said:

the pH appears to be around 7.8. I'm not sure if I should make further efforts to lower this to closer to 7.6 or 7.4?

When pH climbs to 8.0 lower it to 7.8 again (not lower than 7.6!)

 

13 hours ago, darkmyst said:

There's a bit of foam

Once again I already mentions what to do. Increase your calcium hardness to around 200 ppm

 

13 hours ago, darkmyst said:

Bromine is high. Apparently when it started working, it started working really well - probably as a result of the increased effectiveness due to the lower pH.

Nothing to do with pH and for that matter I will repeat again that bromine is equally effective over a wide pH range and even 8.0 or slightly higher is fine for a bromine system in terms of sanitizing. More likely your recent purge cleaned your salt cell and allowed it to operate more efficiently. To lower your bromine uncover your tub, turn off generator, turn on circulation (if you can run it with the generator off, and let it gas off. It might take a few days. If you want to do it faster you can do a partial water change but you will probably have to rebalance your water like you did on the initial fill since you will be affetting your TA, Borate, pH, and possibly CH.

IF you are out of DPD powerder you can get an OTO test kit (yellow liquid for bromine/chlorine) since you are only interested in total bromine. Taylor makes a nice two way tester (K-1000) that has OTO and a wide range pH (using R-0014 reagent instead of the R-0004 in your K-2106) that is a nice addition for a quick daily check on BR and pH levels.  Remember that the tester has two scales on the santizer size, one for chlorine and one for bromine. Make sure you use the right scale.

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28 minutes ago, darkmyst said:

The red color of the pH indicator with the Taylor test isn’t easily identifiable so I’m going to swing by the pool store to have their equipment read it.

IF the red color does not match the scale it is probably interference from high sanitizer. The pool store equipment won't do any better and will give you a false high reading (the most popular system will read high pH when sanitizer is high at a lower threshold than the Taylor liquid reagents for pH. )

YOU CANNOT MEASURE pH WHEN SANITIZER IS HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU WILL GET A FALSE HIGH READING OR A COLOR THAT IS NOT ON YOUR COLOR BLOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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3 minutes ago, waterbear said:

IF the red color does not match the scale it is probably interference from high sanitizer. The pool store equipment won't do any better and will give you a false high reading (the most popular system will read high pH when sanitizer is high at a lower threshold than the Taylor liquid reagents for pH. )

YOU CANNOT MEASURE pH WHEN SANITIZER IS HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU WILL GET A FALSE HIGH READING OR A COLOR THAT IS NOT ON YOUR COLOR BLOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi,

 

To clarify again, I turned off the bromine generator last night and it’s reading 0 this morning and does not have a bromine smell anymore. 

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8 hours ago, darkmyst said:

To clarify again, I turned off the bromine generator last night and it’s reading 0 this morning and does not have a bromine smell anymore. 

I assume that you are using the FAS-DPD test and when you added the DPD powder it stayed clear. However, very high santizer levels can bleach out the DPD and FAS-DPD tests. Also, if there are no organics in the water or they have been oxidized you might not notice the smell of the sanitizer. When you said that the color of the pH test did not match anything on your color block that was sort of a tipoff to me that sanitizer might be very high. DId you get a momentary "flash" of pink when you added the DPD  powder? If you did then your test bleached out. What you would do in this case is add DPD powder a scoop at a time until the pink color holds. You can also use the OTO test that I mentioned previously since OTO does not bleach out but turns very dark yellow then orange, then brown when sanitizer is high. The Taylor OTO test kit I mentioned also contains a wider range pH test with less precision. It tests a range of 6.8 to 8.2 but is not graduated in .2 increments. It is useful for daily testing but for adjustments you would want to use the K-2106. Also, the OTO test is very useful if you suspect high sanitizer (when pH test give an off color into the purple range) to verify. Hope this explains things.

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On 10/24/2020 at 6:42 PM, waterbear said:

I assume that you are using the FAS-DPD test and when you added the DPD powder it stayed clear. However, very high santizer levels can bleach out the DPD and FAS-DPD tests. Also, if there are no organics in the water or they have been oxidized you might not notice the smell of the sanitizer. When you said that the color of the pH test did not match anything on your color block that was sort of a tipoff to me that sanitizer might be very high. DId you get a momentary "flash" of pink when you added the DPD  powder? If you did then your test bleached out. What you would do in this case is add DPD powder a scoop at a time until the pink color holds. You can also use the OTO test that I mentioned previously since OTO does not bleach out but turns very dark yellow then orange, then brown when sanitizer is high. The Taylor OTO test kit I mentioned also contains a wider range pH test with less precision. It tests a range of 6.8 to 8.2 but is not graduated in .2 increments. It is useful for daily testing but for adjustments you would want to use the K-2106. Also, the OTO test is very useful if you suspect high sanitizer (when pH test give an off color into the purple range) to verify. Hope this explains things.

Hi waterbear, thanks again for your help.

I've got the extra stuff on the way still, but I've let the water, bromine, etc settle down these past few days and the pH appears to have settled at 7.8. Although within range, do you have any advice on how that could be lowered to perhaps 7.6 if I wanted to lock it a bit lower to give myself more time for upward drifting? Thanks!

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On 10/24/2020 at 9:34 AM, waterbear said:

IF the red color does not match the scale it is probably interference from high sanitizer. The pool store equipment won't do any better and will give you a false high reading (the most popular system will read high pH when sanitizer is high at a lower threshold than the Taylor liquid reagents for pH. )

YOU CANNOT MEASURE pH WHEN SANITIZER IS HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU WILL GET A FALSE HIGH READING OR A COLOR THAT IS NOT ON YOUR COLOR BLOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think she means it! 😉

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1 minute ago, RDspaguy said:

I think she means it! 😉

I’ll know for absolute sure when my stuff arrives, but high bromine should be a non-issue at this point. I’ve let it sit for quite some time without generating and letting it dissipate  

The color clearly indicates 7.8 at this point as well.

So assuming the bromine is within range or lower, and I want to try to lower it to 7.6, how would it be advised that I do this?

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Acid, but why would you want to? 7.8 is fine, especially with bromine.

I would listen to @waterbear. I am a repair man, not a chemist, and not the best source for chemical advice. I would advise you to not use your bromine generator, for several reasons, and if you insist on bromine I would recommend sodium bromide and dichlor/bleach. But that's just my opinion. Waterbear knows alot more than I about chemistry. She has likely forgot more about it than I will ever know to begin with.

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23 hours ago, darkmyst said:

I've got the extra stuff on the way still, but I've let the water, bromine, etc settle down these past few days and the pH appears to have settled at 7.8. Although within range, do you have any advice on how that could be lowered to perhaps 7.6 if I wanted to lock it a bit lower to give myself more time for upward drifting?

I WILL REPEAT ONE LAST TIME:

THE LOWER YOU PUT THE pH THE FASTER IT RISES BECAUSE YOU ARE CONVERTING MORE BICARBONATE IONS INTO CARBON DIOXIDE DISSOLVED IN THE WATER.  WHEN THE CARBON DIOXIDE GASES OFF THE pH RISES. THE LOWER THE pH THE MORE CARBON DIXOIDE. THE MORE CARBON DIOXIDE THE FASTER THE OUTGASSING. THE FASTER THE OUTGASSING THE FASTER THE pH RISE! pH RISE IS  SLOWER AT A HIGHER pH THAN AT A LOWER pH. END OF STORY. DONE DEAL. GOT IT?

USING A SECONDARY BORATE BUFFER MEANS YOUR pH WANTS TO STAY AROUND 7.7-7.8 AND IF YOU MAKE IT LOWER IT WILL RISE BACK TO THE SAME 7.7-7.8 AND STABILIZE.  THIS IS THE 'HAPPY PLACE' FOR THE pH.

BROMINE IS EFFECTIVE OVER A WIDE pH RANGE. ANYTHING BELOW 8.0 IS ACCEPTABLE.

If you want to keep your pH at 7.6 go for it but be aware it will rise to 7.8 and stay until you add more acid. When you lower it it will rise back up. Good luck. I'm done.

 

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Guess you never heard of Barbers ;) Actually, I'm dual licensed in Florida and still retain current licenses for both Barbering and Cosmetology but no longer practice. Arthritis in my hands make it impossible to work all day in a salon or teach either vocation, which I have also done. Just to show no hard feelings I would gladly give you a free shave with one of my straight razors! ;)

(Fun fact, did you know that straight razors are also called 'cutthroats') ;)

 

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🤪 Yeah, I'm a little slow sometimes... much better with electromechanical than interpersonal. And I never read your profile thingy before, so was going blind on that one. I am sorry. I meant no offense.

My hair has been nearly waist length since 1987, so I don't see many barbers, or cosmetologists, or even scissors touching my hair, very often. And I stopped shaving my cheeks about a decade ago, and have a full beard now.

I guess it's ok to call the razor a cutthroat as long as you can't call the person holding it one. 

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On 10/30/2020 at 2:07 PM, RDspaguy said:

I guess it's ok to call the razor a cutthroat as long as you can't call the person holding it one. 

ROFLMAO,

have had a beard since I was 15. Now it's white and down to my belly! (Yeah, I do play Santa for Deaf and Blind kids where I currently work). Had long hair  from 1969 - 1970 until my current job about 16 years ago. I cut it for the interview and after I started working there discovered that I did not need to! Oh well. Hair was to my waist when I worked in Salons.

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