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ThermoSpa - Pumps 2-5 trip the GFCI


rmcderm313

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Hi All,

 

I've just inherited a TheroSpa Manhattan.  It's got a Balboa board/heater and 6 pumps, the circ pump and pumps 1-5 and a blower.

I can start the tub fine, the circ pump kicks on fine.  Pump 1 runs on both low and high speed fine. The blower runs fine.

When I try and start any of pumps 2-5, they begin to kick on and then trip the GFCI.  Pumps 2-5 are all one speed.  Pump 1 is 2 speed.  Pump 1 connects to a dedicated connection on the board, pumps 2 and 5 and pumps 3 and 4 connect to shared connections with 'Y' cables.  The diagram on the inside of the spa pac matches the way things are hooked up.

I guess it's possible that all 4 of these pumps are having issues but it seems unlikely.  Before I go and replace one pump, I'd like to hear some opinions on whether something else could be going on.  Is it possible that the board could be faulty? If that were the case it also seems unlikely that both of these connections went bad.  The pumps do start to spin and move water, but then the GFCI trips.

Any thoughts on what might be going on?

Thanks,

Rob

Edited by rmcderm313
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Hi All,

As a first troubleshooting step I'd like to isolate the issue to a single pump if possible to start with.  Would it be safe to swap the connections on the spa pac for pumps 1 and 2 (for example)?  Then if pump 1 continues to run without tripping the GFCI when I start it by pressing the pump 2 button, and/or if pump 2 continues to trip the GFCI when I start it by pressing the pump 1 button, I'll know the issue is directly related to pump 2 and not a wiring connection on the board. If the behavior changes based on where the pumps are connected to the board I have a different issue.

The specs for the 2 kinds of pumps in the tub are below.  I'm thinking that the only thing that matters from the standpoint of where the pump is connected to the board is the voltage.  Since both pumps are 230 volts I don't think the board will care which one is connected to the pump 1 (J1) connection and which one is connected to the pump 2 connection (J11). But I don't want to do any damage to my board and/or a pump by connecting them to a board input where I shouldn't.

Does this sound like a safe and sound troubleshooting step?

      Speed HP Volts Hz Amps Frame RPM
Pumps 2-5 06520002-2 Aqua-flo Flo-master XP2 1 2.5HP 230 60 10 48Y 3450
Pump 1 06620003-2 Aqua-flo Flo-master XP2 2 2.0HP 230 60 8.4/3.0 54Y 3450/1725

 

Thanks,

Rob

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Try disconnect J11 from the board (pumps 2 and 5) and also the wire that is connected going to RED AC bottom left on the board then try it see if breaker holds. If it trips do the same with the 3/4 pump connection at J12 along with the wire going to Red AC and see if it holds. If it holds then reattach J12 but not the red ac wire and try breaker. If it holds do the same with J11 leaving the red ac disconnected. If it holds then try reattaching the red ac one at a time trying the breaker each time. 

If you have ozone or the mister disconnect them one at a time first and try the breaker.

Let us know results

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Thanks CanadianSpaTech,

I understand all of the activities you describe, but what should I do as the test for each step?  Keeping in mind that the GFCI only trips when I start one of the pumps 2-5? I can leave everything connected and the GFCI is fine until I try and start a pump.

When J11 is disconnected should I try starting one of the pumps 3 or 4 and vice versa?  I do not have an ozone or a mister but I do have a diverter valve that controls a wave pump.  I've left the wave pump and diverter disconnected the whole time as I know the diverter is seized.

Thanks for the reply.

Rob

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3 hours ago, rmcderm313 said:

but what should I do as the test for each step?

Disconnect them all and work backwards.  Try with J11 and 12 and both RED AC wires disconnected. reset the breaker and try pushing pump 1 low and high. If it holds pump 1 is good. Next power off then reconnect J 12 but leave the associated Red AC wire disconnected. Reset power then try pump 3 (or pump 4 the RED AC wire will be for one pump the J12 will be for the other but we have to start with the main "J" connector first) So if 3 or 4 comes on next try reconnecting the Red AC wire and see if you now have both 3 and 4 working. then keep going with the same tests on J11 and it's red AC wire. If it trips at any point disconnect the last step and move forward to the next connector. We are trying to test each pump individually but it's hard with this system and having 2 pumps splitting the same J connector.

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Thanks CanadianSpaTech

Here are my actions and results:

At the start of each test I ran the following steps just to be sure nothing had stopped working:

  • Pump 1 low-high-off - all successful
  • Blower on-off - successful
  • Light on-off - successful
  • All working items turned off

 

Test 1

  • J11 connected
  • J12 disconnected
  • Pump 4 to J95 disconnected
  • Pump 5 to J46 disconnected
  • Pump 2 on - blows GFCI

 

Test 2

  • J12 connected
  • J11 disconnected
  • Pump 5 to J46 disconnected
  • Pump 4 to J95 disconnected
  • Pump 3 on - blows GFCI

 

Test 3 (just to be thorough)

  • W14 to J57 disconnected (connects J11 to 240v)
  • J12 connected
  • J11 disconnected
  • Pump 5 to J46 disconnected
  • Pump 4 to J95 disconnected
  • Pump 3 on - blows GFCI

 

Test 4 (just to be thorough)

  • W10 to J61 disconnected (connects J12 to 240v)
  • J11 connected
  • J12 disconnected
  • Pump 4 to J95 disconnected
  • Pump 5 to J46 disconnected
  • Pump 2 on - blows GFCI

 

I also tried swapping out different pumps connected to the 1 active connection, that way if pumps 2 and 3 are coincidentally bad, it won’t mislead the results,

Essentially everything I tried tripped the GFCI as soon as I started the ‘active’ pump, no matter how isolated the pump connection was.

New Info, the last test I did was targeting pump 4 and when it tripped the GFCI I saw a wisp of smoke come out of the motor.  I had never seen that before and I’m not sure which might be causing the other.  Keep in mind that I did bench test all of these pumps with 120V and the volute off, and they all turned. I should also mention (I’m new at this keep in mind) that I have not secured these pumps down.  I was waiting to see how everything worked before locking everything down.  During this episode with pump 4 it bucked pretty violently when it started before tripping the GFCI.  Is it ill-advised to leave the pumps not-screwed down to the frame?

I’m at a loss.  Any thoughts on connecting one of these ‘bad’ pumps to the pump 1 connection and seeing if it starts? Or connecting pump 1 to one of these ‘bad’ connections?

One other thing, there is a red wire going from 240v J55 to W3.  It’s not documented on the wiring diagram.  It’s shown but not mentioned what it’s for.  It’s the only connection I haven’t tried removing.

Any and all help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Rob

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13 hours ago, rmcderm313 said:

Is it ill-advised to leave the pumps not-screwed down to the frame

Should not be a problem.

Can you post a few photos of the circuit board so we can see the wiring. you might have to pull the board and look on the backside for darkened or burnt areas around the relays

 

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14 hours ago, rmcderm313 said:

Can I hook a pump directly to J11 or J12 without using the spliiter cable?

I think I would try unhooking J11 and trying each pump one at a time in J12 and then again at J11 if tripping happens on J12 see what happens. 

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40 minutes ago, CanadianSpaTech said:

I think I would try unhooking J11 and trying each pump one at a time in J12 and then again at J11 if tripping happens on J12 see what happens. 

Cool I'll try that next.  If the GFCI is still tripping would there be any harm in trying the working pump 1 on J11 or J12 to see if a known good pump trips it?  Same volts and amps.  Only difference I can see is pump 1 has  .5 less HP and is 2-speed.

Thanks,

Rob

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2 hours ago, rmcderm313 said:

would there be any harm in trying the working pump 1 on J11 or J12 to see if a known good pump trips it?  Same volts and amps.  Only difference I can see is pump 1 has  .5 less HP and is 2-speed.

Usually a single speed pump has 3 wires. The way that they are splitting it and using 4 wires I'm not sure I would want to try a 4 wire pump there.

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OK cool. Thanks for your help and persistence on this with me. I decided to take a chance as I was out of options and before I dug into removing the board.  I did this before seeing your last response, my curiosity got the better of me and I decided I didn't really have much to lose.

I tried all the suggestions and any way pumps 2-5 are hooked up they trip the GFCI.  I even hooked pump 2 to the pump 1 connector and it tripped the GFCI.  I hooked everything back up on the spa pac as the wiring diagram suggests and then moved pump 1 through all of the 2-5 connections (not directly to J11 or J12 but to the split cable as factory wired). Pump 1 ran on high speed and didn't blow the GFCI on any of the connections.

So....  Either I have 4 bad pumps or there is something in the specs of pumps 2-5 that is too much for the GFCI (I find that a bit hard to believe but I'm open). It's an older hot tub and there was some water damage so 4 bad pumps is not completely out of the question.

I think my next step is to pull out one of the 'bad' pumps and overhaul it.  New seal/bearings and clean up the shaft and impeller.  Then bench test it again and make sure it starts and runs for minute on 120V.  If that doesn't 'fix' the issue, I guess I'll buy a new pump and see if I can get that one to run.

Can anyone think of why a pump would fire up and start to spin, but then have enough of an issue to trip the GFCI? Would a pump in this condition spin on 120v? Any recommendations on a solid test approach for a pump other than just trying it?

Thanks CanadianSpaTech for your guidance thus far.  It's awesome that you offer your knowledge like this, it makes a big difference to newbie DIY guys like me.

I will update on progress.

Rob

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What amp rating is the breaker? Is the heater and pump 1 on when you try the other pumps? You are describing 4 pumps that each draw 10 amps, so 40 amps with just the pumps on. Add in 3.5 for low speed pump 1 and 24 on the heater and you have 67.5 amps. Your diagram shows 40 amp max, so your spa cannot possibly work as shown. Even if it turns off the heater and pump 1 if the jets are on, you will still trip a 40 amp breaker.

I would recommend you contact the manufacturer for wiring specs.

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Thanks RDspaguy,

My GFCI is 50 AMP.  All of my testing with these pumps has been with nothing else turned on including the heater, so it shouldn't be a case of an amp overload tripping the GFCI.  Your observation is interesting though.  I've been thinking all along that there is no way everything on this tub could be running at the same time.  I don't know a ton about electricity so I just figured I wasn't understanding something.  This tub came by way of my parents so I'm aware of it's history to an extent.  When they first bought it, it was installed on a 60 amp GFCI which is the recommendation from Thermospa.  Everything worked fine, although I can't say with 100% certainty that they ever turned everything on all at once. I suspect that they did at some point though.  Some number of years into owning it, they started to have an issue with the GFCI tripping when they turned on one of these pumps.  After several service calls they were advised to have the GFCI checked, which they did. I'm not 100% sure of the reasoning but they had the GFCI box replaced and it was a 50 amp box. I think it may have just been that the electrician had a 50 amp box available and could not get a 60 amp quickly. This problem was never resolved and they decided to just avoid the pump.  Their recollection was that it was just one of the pumps, but I can't be certain of that.

I took the 50 amp box with the tub and installed it in my house.  I'm still suspecting that each of these 10 amp pumps are bad and creating a ground fault.  I will know soon when I get the new pump.  I completely agree with you that the amp numbers don't add up on the surface.  I do find it a bit hard to believe that Thermospa would produce a model with the amp draw so far out of whack, but bad engineering decisions never cease to amaze me.  I still go back to the fact that my parents had several years of trouble free use which in my mind points to a failure of a component and away from a inadequate design in the first place.

It's worth mentioning that I have no desire to get any more than 1 more pump working.  With the existing working pump 1 and one more 10 amp pump, that will be plenty to satisfy my family's spa needs.  I can't even imagine 4 additional jet pumps being on.  It's pretty turbulent with just the one pump and the blower.  I think people would drown :)

Thanks for your response.  I will keep everyone posted as my troubleshooting continues.

Rob

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27 minutes ago, rmcderm313 said:

It's worth mentioning that I have no desire to get any more than 1 more pump working.

Perhaps but what can and will happen is that water will sit in the lines of the unused pumps and go stagnant without flow. Disinfecting chemicals will not get into those unused lines and that can be unhealthy. One step at a time. Get your new pump and do your testing but the goal is to have everything working. Go 60 amp as well. 

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New pump arrived.  I connected to the pump 2 connection, outside the tub, volute on.  I ran it for 10-12 seconds and the GFCI held. The GFCI normally trips in under 5 seconds or immediately when these were turned on.  I also ran pump 1, the circ pump and pump 2 all at the same time for 10-12 seconds.  All good. I would have done more robust tests but I didn't want to risk damaging the impeller.

Now I'll install it in the tub and see if it works the same connected to the plumbing.

@RDspaguyThis tub has been through a lot, which I will detail later when I have a bit more time.  It didn't 'flood' but there was definitely water damage to the frame and I assume that means that some of that water could have found it's way into the pumps. I'm actually hoping at this point that the pumps are the issue.  Worst case $900 to replace the remaining 3 and best case I successfully rebuild them all for much, much less.

I'll keep you posted.  Thanks again for all of the continued advice.

Rob

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Ok. That qualifies as flooded, at least in spa guy talk.

If you are handy, pull them apart and see what you see. If not, bring them to a motor shop for testing. It may be fixable with a wire brush, you never know with a ground fault. Gfci breakers can trip from almost nothing, 5 milliamps or .005 amps lost to ground. If those motors were in water even a little there could be corrosion or dirt/debris shorting it out.

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New pump installed today and it is working great so far.  Now I'll start to rebuild the one I removed to see if I can bring it back to life.  I'll post pictures when I get it all apart and see what was causing the ground fault.  Guessing a blown seal and water inside the casing.

Once again, thanks for all of the help.

Rob

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On 9/27/2020 at 12:39 PM, RDspaguy said:

Honestly, I would say the odds of 4 pumps shorting out and tripping the breaker (rare for a pump) at the same time are pretty much nil. Unless it was flooded or some such circumstance. I think there is something else going on here that we just aren't seeing yet.

@CanadianSpaTech, would you agree?

This was the condition of the tub after I tried to move it.  The frame was rotted and termite infested and fell apart.  It sat upside down for almost 2 weeks, covered with a tarp while the frame was rebuilt.  I've learned more about hot tub construction than I ever wanted to.

So, I think you would consider this flooded. Like some of the other threads I've followed on this board, this has become a quest.  I'm down to 3 misbehaving pumps from a series of leaks and other malfunctions, so I think I'm seeing light.

IMG_0888.JPG

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