Advice Needed with buying 3 Person HT

[gwmac]

Hi, Glad to find this forum. I am planning to buy a 3 person hot tub and I have some questions. My first question would be some recommended models. So far in my research I have found one I like called Dr Wellness X-2which seems to go for $3199 without any upgrades or delivery. Dr. Wellness seems to just be another LHI brand like Home and Garden brand.  I am looking for powerful jets so I want at least a 4HP or higher pump. I also saw the Catalina Luxury Kennedy but I can't see a price for it and I am guessing it is very expensive. Finally I found this one sold at Lowes and Home Depot Home and Garden  I want to keep my budget around $4,000 including shipping and upgrades but could go as high as 5K if needed for a good brand. 

My second question regards recommended sites to buy my new hot tub. Some are definitely better than others. I want to buy from a reputable manufacturer that will offer and honor a generous warranty. Was considering a big box like Home Depot because they offer free delivery and a cover but wondering how I would move a 600 lb hot tub from my long driveway to my backyard. Anyone ever try offering the delivery guy some money on the side to place it in your yard? 

 I was thinking of going salt water but would love to hear your thoughts about that. I have heard the new salt water systems they have now don't suffer from the corrosion and other issues from around 10 years ago. Anyone with a salt water HT I would love to hear what you think. 

Finally, under upgrade options there are several. Which are useful to have and which are just a waste of money. I'm leaning toward just the ozonator and Salt Sytem but everything else can be bought cheaper online. 

Here are all the upgrades.

1-Year Extended Warranty ($99.00)  
Nature2 Spa Water Purifier ($24.99)  
Spa Startup Chemical Kit ($84.99)  
ProZone Salt System ($399.00)  
Factory Installed Ozonator ($69.00) 
3-Pack Extra Filters ($75.00)  
CopPure Filter Upgrade ($105.00)  
Rechargeable Floating Drink Station ($49.00) 
Cover Concierge w/ bottom mount ($169.00)  
Spa Side Handrail ($129.00)  
Spa Booster Seat ($19.95)  
Shipping Safegaurd ($49.00)
Bluetooth Waterproof Audio ($299
Perimeter LED Lighting Package ($299)
 

[RDspaguy]

Who will service these spas from online sites and HD when they break down, under warranty or not? Buy from them and you likely have no warranty coverage, whatever the manufacturer offers. Dealers won't honor a warranty on a spa they did not sell, and independent service companies won't mess around with warranty bs or rates. Better be ready to fix it yourself.

HD delivers with a box truck with a lift or maybe a forklift. They will not, for any amount, move it farther than your pavement as they do not have the equipment to do so.

Ozone burns off chlorine, salt cells create it. They are counterproductive to each other. 

[gwmac]

I bought my last hot tub and online so this is my second one. It came with a 5 year warranty and it did have a few issues that needed repair. I simply contacted the manufacturer and they sent out local hot tub repair guys who came very quickly and repaired the issue. So I am not at all worried about that aspect. I rather save close to $2000 and buy online than pay the dealer commission. 

[RDspaguy]

Consider yourself lucky. In 25 years in this business I have repaired many tubs that the owner could not get serviced under warranty. The manufacturer would ship them parts sometimes, but had no service provider in St. Louis area. I provided service for Costco for a short period and many of those people had been waiting months for service.

If you have read the several other recent threads on the subject you have heard my advice. A good dealer is more important than a good deal. I hope you have good luck with your next spa as well.

[gwmac]

I still have the contact for two of the repair guys and luckily they are still in business. They work on pools and hot tubs and were very competent with my old heater and panel replacements.  I left them a message because I need my last hot tub hauled away and I also want then to assist with installing the new one. Old one is on a small deck but it is old and falling apart so I want to remove the old hot tub and tear down that deck then either lay down a small concrete patio or gravel/sand/pavers or maybe look at those EZ Hot Tub pads.  

I wonder if I post an ad for "Free Hot Hub in need of repair" if I can get someone to take it off my hands. 

[RDspaguy]

Maybe. Ask the repair guys if they want it. Many of us rehab and sell used tubs on the side.

[castletonia]

6 hours ago, gwmac said:

I bought my last hot tub and online so this is my second one. It came with a 5 year warranty and it did have a few issues that needed repair. I simply contacted the manufacturer and they sent out local hot tub repair guys who came very quickly and repaired the issue. So I am not at all worried about that aspect. I rather save close to $2000 and buy online than pay the dealer commission. 

As a dealer all I can say is best of luck.  I’ve sold hot tubs almost 20 years now.  You’re not saving $2,000 buying online.  
 

I also think your making a huge mistake thinking you need a pump that is 4HP.  HP rating is in my opinion for worst way shop.  My hot tub has a 1.5HP pump and it has in my opinion good power.  The type I can sit in front of for as long as a I want without hurting.  I’ve also sat in a Coast Spa with a legit 7HP pump and a Dynasty with a legit 5HP pump.  Both were fine but it doesn’t feel good when you’re getting abused by the jets.  YMMV.

Of the brands you listed, Catalina is the only one I would even consider.  Dr Wellness is about as low as it gets in terms of quality.  

[CanadianSpaTech]

With a 4-5K budget I would be looking at the used market. More tub for the money...JMO

[ratchett]

12 hours ago, castletonia said:

Of the brands you listed, Catalina is the only one I would even consider.  Dr Wellness is about as low as it gets in terms of quality.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't both Dr Wellness and Catalina spas both manufactured by the same LPI Inc? Or is Catalina the premiere brand for LPI? Lol

https://www.poolspanews.com/business/lpi-acquires-catalina-spas_o

[RDspaguy]

Hot spot, Tiger River, Hot Springs,  and Caldera are all by Watkins, but there is no comparison on quality or design. Cheap is cheap, however you slice it. You can't get a top quality spa for a low end price. 

[gwmac]

I have read a ton  of reviews by verified purchasers about the Dr. Wellness (go to Home Depot or Lowes for example) which is also sold as Home and garden manufactured in Tennessee by LHI and  it consistently good good reviews. I also was drawn to this brand because a friend of mine has this brand though a larger 5 seater for 7 years with no issues. He loves his. Paying more money doesn't always mean you get higher quality. If you look at the part list for these "premium" brands" like I have done they seem to have nearly identical part list as Dr. Wellness.  I don't understand why anyone would pay that huge overhead from a dealer, but that's just me. The last 3 seater Hot Tub I bought was also made in Tennessee by a company called Sun Spas  or Sun Enterprise if memory serves. It lasted me close to 11 years with only minor issues and I bought it directly from the manufacturer off their Ebay page for only $3000 delivered. It had a 4.5 HP pump, waterfall, around 32 jets, LED lighting in multiple colors and a balboa digital control with an ozonator installed. I think 11 years isn't bad and the internal parts still worked fine but the wood shell started to deteriorate. and I let it sit idle for last 2 years. 

I also disagree strongly with the poster above who thinks a 1.5 or 2HP pump is sufficient. High power pumps can easily be adjusted to a lower setting if you think it's too strong but a low power pump can't shoot out stronger currents if you want that deep massage and I prefer the highest setting most of the time.  My old hot tub had a ton of different jet settings you could choose and I am sure new ones do as well. It makes no sense to me why anyone would spend all that money and then get a Hot Tub so under powered which isn't much more powerful than my bathtub which has "jets". Sorry I want the deep massage feeling and that means a 6HP pump. 

One other posted that said an ozonator isn't needed in a salt water system that seems to be false. Salt Water with Ozonator I have seen several being sold that are salt water systems with ozonators installed. A manufacturer I called even said they work very well together.

[north_of_boston]

THREE?  person tub - it's a rather odd (not trying to be funny) seating capacity.

What if you are a couple and have another couple over?    Well that's four,   and realistically you might want a six-seater. 

The other topic = go to a dealer.   The initial payout may be more.   In the long run - you're going to need advice and support.

If you ever heard Zig Ziglar's analogy about buying a bike for his kid - well,  the same thing applies to hot tubs.    Value for the money.   And total cost of ownership.

 

[CanadianSpaTech]

1 hour ago, gwmac said:

I have read a ton  of reviews by verified purchasers about the Dr. Wellness (go to Home Depot or Lowes for example) which is also sold as Home and garden manufactured in Tennessee by LHI and  it consistently good good reviews. I also was drawn to this brand because a friend of mine has this brand though a larger 5 seater for 7 years with no issues. He loves his. Paying more money doesn't always mean you get higher quality. If you look at the part list for these "premium" brands" like I have done they seem to have nearly identical part list as Dr. Wellness.  I don't understand why anyone would pay that huge overhead from a dealer, but that's just me. The last 3 seater Hot Tub I bought was also made in Tennessee by a company called Sun Spas  or Sun Enterprise if memory serves. It lasted me close to 11 years with only minor issues and I bought it directly from the manufacturer off their Ebay page for only $3000 delivered. It had a 4.5 HP pump, waterfall, around 32 jets, LED lighting in multiple colors and a balboa digital control with an ozonator installed. I think 11 years isn't bad and the internal parts still worked fine but the wood shell started to deteriorate. and I let it sit idle for last 2 years. 

I also disagree strongly with the poster above who thinks a 1.5 or 2HP pump is sufficient. High power pumps can easily be adjusted to a lower setting if you think it's too strong but a low power pump can't shoot out stronger currents if you want that deep massage and I prefer the highest setting most of the time.  My old hot tub had a ton of different jet settings you could choose and I am sure new ones do as well. It makes no sense to me why anyone would spend all that money and then get a Hot Tub so under powered which isn't much more powerful than my bathtub which has "jets". Sorry I want the deep massage feeling and that means a 6HP pump. 

One other posted that said an ozonator isn't needed in a salt water system that seems to be false. Salt Water with Ozonator I have seen several being sold that are salt water systems with ozonators installed. A manufacturer I called even said they work very well together.

FYI that 6 bhp Chinese made LX pump that is metric and almost impossible to get seals and impellers for  in the Dr. Wellness is rated at 12 Amp = 3 hp.

 

[gwmac]

All I wanted was some recommendations for 3 person sized hot tubs. If anyone has some specific models to suggest I would still appreciate your suggestions. I will not be buying from a dealer for the reasons already outlined. 

 

Here are the ones I have researched so far and am considering. Please add any others you suggest or if you had to pick one from this list which one would it be? 

G-2 Tranquility

X-2

Jetsetter LX

Belize Classic

NS 3 Plus by Signature

American Spas 3 person

Catalina Newport I think the Newport might just be the 2020 model of the Kennedy? They seem to be almost the same

Catalina Kennedy

Integrity Bali

[castletonia]

Jet power can be subjective.  I will stand by my belief that the 1.5HP pump in my Hot Spring SX provides me enough power.  Hot Spring knows how to engineer a hot tub and it is a legit 1.5HP pump.  Having sat in over 100 hot tubs now in my life, I feel I am experienced enough to know jet power when I feel it.  I have sat in front of a 7HP pump on a Coast Spa, a 5HP on a Coast and Dynasty, as well as many smaller pumps.  The thing is, pump horsepower can be fudged to make it appear different than it is.  Unless you can provide the amp draw of the motor and what HP impeller is in the wet end, then the stated horsepower cannot be verified.

The problem with buying online is you cannot try before you buy so you have no idea what fits you and whether the jets feel comfortable.  You can cross the Jetsetter LX off your list because Hot Spring doesn't sell online and its not going to fall into your desired price range.  Again, avoid anything Dr Wellness.  Its low quality with Chinese parts.  The American Spas is a Cal Spa.  I think very little of Cal Spas but would take that in a heartbeat over Dr Wellness.  That Catalina Newport might hopefully be supported by Watson's so that's a plus.

Any other suggestions I could offer won't apply because you won't buy from a dealer so if it were me I would take my chances choose either the American Spas or Catalina Newport and hope for the best.

[gwmac]

Thanks for your input. Much appreciated. A local dealer here sells the Jetsetter so I will go take a look in person. I already know it is around 7 or 8K which is fine if I like what I see. I like jets as strong as possible almost to the point of leaving a bruise, but I hear what you are saying that you can't rely on the HP spec numbers alone but that is really all I have to go by other than reviews. I think the disconnect is that many of you guys are experts and come at it from that perspective while I may be completely satisfied by something you might consider cheap garbage. I absolutely loved my last Hot Tub which I bought factory direct and I would be happy to have one as good and all the ones I listed seem to easily fit that criteria.  I also am fine with getting my local spa repair guy to do any warranty work if needed without a dealer and I already know how to maintain water quality well. 

Correct me if I am wrong but years ago there seemed to be many  high quality spa manufacturers but most seem to have all been gobbled up recently and most are now made by just a few companies like LHI even though they kept the old name brands.  

 

 

[castletonia]

Hot Spring and Caldera are owned by Watkins Wellness.  Sundance, Jacuzzi, D1 and Thermo Spas are same ownership group.  There probably are other smaller, regional brands that merged.

if you’re going to consider brands sold at dealers, I would also suggest Marquis and Artesian.

[gwmac]

I live in a small city with only 2 dealers. One sells Bullfrog and  the other Hotspring so it would have to be choice between those two brands if I want to buy locally. Atlanta is 90 miles away and they have every brand but that defeats the point of having someone nearby for aftercare help if needed. 

I am visiting both shops tomorrow to have a look. 

[RDspaguy]

8 hours ago, CanadianSpaTech said:

High power pumps can easily be adjusted to a lower setting

Not so.

 

10 hours ago, gwmac said:

One other posted that said an ozonator isn't needed in a salt water system that seems to be false. 

What I said is that they work against each other, as ozone will burn off the chlorine that the chlorine generator creates. A little research about ozone will make that clear. Many people like ozone (I am one), and salt cells have been popular in pools for a decade or so, so both are selling points. Manufacturers do what sells. There was a time when you couldn't sell a spa that wasn't full foam, or that didn't have a stereo, or that didn't include a built-in ice bin. And asking a manufacturers rep if his product is good will always get you the same answer.

 

8 hours ago, CanadianSpaTech said:

rated at 12 Amp = 3 hp.

HP is also a selling point. Pumps have 2 ways to measure HP. The traditional method, which is a calculation based on the running power of the motor, and BHP (brake horse power) which is a calculation based on the starting power of the motor. I worked in the industry when this first went into effect (25 years ago) and the manufacturer sent us 3.5hp stickers with instructions to place them over the 2hp stickers currently on the motors. Couple this with the fact that a modern pump housing can use multiple sizes of impeller with different flow rates but rate the pump at the highest size possible and hp becomes meaningless, just a marketing ploy. Every experienced technician I know pays no attention to hp but looks at the amp draw of the motor for a true indication of the motor power and appropriate impeller size.

3 hours ago, gwmac said:

years ago there seemed to be many  high quality spa manufacturers

Yes and no. There have always been a limited number of facilities with the (expensive) equipment needed to produce spa shells (and boat hulls). These shells were built to specs for different "manufacturers" who installed the plumbing, equipment, and cabinet. This number has actually increased over time, but the companies with that equipment have begun to bring the various brands they produce shells for under one "parent" company, often by the simple method of refusing to sell the shells anymore. You can't be a spa manufacturer if you can't make or buy the shells. So the brand names are bought, and each is produced to a different quality standard to reach different price markets.

11 hours ago, gwmac said:

My old hot tub had a ton of different jet settings you could choose

Really? I would love to see that, as in 25 years of working on them for a living I have never seen a spa pump with more than 2 speeds until a couple of years ago when variable speed pumps were introduced to the spa industry, and only in high end spas as they run around $1k just for the pump.

[CanadianSpaTech]

11 hours ago, gwmac said:

 I also am fine with getting my local spa repair guy to do any warranty work if needed without a dealer

Your local guy would not likely help you with warranty work unless he is authorized by the related manufacturer

 

11 hours ago, gwmac said:

I think the disconnect is that many of you guys are experts and come at it from that perspective while I may be completely satisfied by something you might consider cheap garbage

You base your knowledge or experience on the one spa you have owned in the past and perhaps your friends spa as well. The collective here bases our advice on first hand knowledge working in the field on tens of thousands of spas made by every manufacturer out there. It is natural for us to try and steer you away from "Cheap Garbage" because we all to often see the end results of "Cheap Garbage" and want to help you make an informed decision. 

Again personally I would be looking into the used market with an 5-8K and under budget. You could get a kick ass spa that way out performs and exceeds your expectations VS any new spa in that price range. 2-5 year old spas that sold for $12 - 15000 and up often sell in your price range. JMO 

[gwmac]

Thanks for the replies they have been very helpful. Used is not an option I want to consider otherwise I would just pay to have mine fixed. I want one  with a full warranty. I also just want to treat myself since my car will shortly be paid off so I'll have an extra $750 a month to splurge.  I have the money to buy a premium brand I was just hoping to save a few bucks,  but your cases for buying from a dealer and to buy a reputable brand are strong. 

 Locally my choices are between the Hotspring Jetsetter or Jetsetter LX and the Bullfrog A5L, R5L, and X5L.  Those seem to be the only 3 person models. I will visit the Hotspring today and Bullfrog later since they are in opposite directions from my house. I know there is room for negotiation on price, so could some of you pros help me out by giving me a good estimate on a fair price I should pay? It's hard to negotiate when you don't know how much those models are being sold for elsewhere or their dealer price. I understand they need a fair profit margin but I also want to get the best price I can as everyone does. 

And to the comment I made on jet power setting. It has been over 2 years since I used my old HT but I remember it having 2 maybe 3 settings on jet flow. High ,medium and low jet flow I think but you might be right and it was only high flow and low. Then it had other options like a constant stream of water or slow intermittent bursts  and another with faster intermittent  every few seconds which was called massage mode or something similar. Hope that makes sense. 

But I have been in Hot Tubs where the jets were weak I hated that. I want the jets to be as strong as possible. My old HT had a 4.5 HP pump and it was strong and I want the new one as strong or stronger jet flow. I used the lounger position more than the seats and I loved that because it had jets for upper and lower back, your right side, legs, and feet so you are getting pummeled with 10 jets all at once. The hot hub has a total of 32 jets with one seat having  9 for back and a few for feet and the other chair with fewer jets for back. You could also easily open or close the valves to increase or decrease flow to other  seating positions with a lever or close the individual jets by turning them off.  So that is essential in my new hot tub that the lounger has a similar layout for lounger jets. 

One other question for you pros is the type of sanitation system. This article suggest Ozonators are a waste of money. Do you agree with that article and I should forgo an ozonator? I then have a choice between salt, chlorine, or bromide. I would love to try salt if that is an option but my main concern is shortening the life of the internal plumbing from corrosion. I use bromide in my last HT so I  am familiar with that. 

[RDspaguy]

Ozone has been used in municipal water treatment for nearly a century to remove chlorine and the resulting chloramines from sanitation. It will burn off chlorine, which is why I love them. I do not want to sit in a chemical bath, but still want to sanitize my water after use. Ozone allows me to add chlorine when I get out to sanitize, then removes it before I use it the next day. If you want to maintain a set residual in the water ozone will defeat you. It's usefulness depends on what you want out of it. It does not eliminate the need for chlorine (or bromine). With bromide it is an oxidizer (shock) that continually converts bromide to bromine. It will also burn off bromine to a small degree, as bromine is far less reactive than chlorine.

Salt sytems are chlorine generators. The salt does nothing for you but provide a source of chlorine. The chlorine it produces is VERY high ph and if not adjusted daily will cause excessive scale which is damaging to heaters and equipment. Also, rubber gaskets (like those behind every jet) will suffer from high ph. It is supposed to make maintenance easier, but in my opinion it does the opposite.

I personally use 24/7 ozone, mineral purifier (nature2) and chlorine after each use. I rarely need to adjust ph and always have clear, sanitized, and odorless water.

[castletonia]

Each dealer will set their price based on what the local market allows.  It will always be less than MSRP, but that is irrelevant because no one sells at MSRP.  I sell Jetsetter LX's between $10,500-$12,000 depending on options and the Jetsetter is $750 less.  That is my pricing and my pricing only.  Other dealers can be more or less and it really doesn't matter because I cannot sell outside my territory unless I'm willing to service it.  You can always negotiate but given the high demand right now I doubt any dealer would be looking to fire sale a hot tub just to make a sale.

I think ozone is beneficial and more so when installed with 24/7 filtration.  I sell ozone with chlorine, saltwater, mineral, etc.  The big think to understand is ozone doesn't replace the need for anything else, it just assists the primary sanitizer.  I currently use the inline Frog @ease system without ozone.  When I do a water change I will install an ozone and see how much it benefits my usage.  YMMV.  Generally speaking, those who are not afraid of chlorine and tend to operate on the higher side (3-5ppm) probably won't notice as large a benefit but those who operate with less (1-3ppm) or those with Nature2 or Frog will probably see more noticeable results.

Bullfrog is a quality product but I don't know their pricing at all.  My guess is the X5L will be in the $7k range, R5L in the $9k and A5L in the $11k, but those are just guesses.

[ratchett]

Hotspring fanboy chiming in (I'm not bashful, I'll admit it lol) - after waiting two decades to buy a tub, I opted to get the nicest 3-seater 110AC tub I could find (re-doing backyard of my new home in the near future, didn't want to run 220 to current location) I opted to buy a 2019 Jetsetter (driftwood cabinet with platinum shell) with the ozonator.   I use only two chemicals in my tub - Dichlor56 pellets for sanitizer after each soak, and baking soda to raise PH if necessary (I test once per month per dealer's recommendation).  The ozonator and silver mineral cartridge do the rest of the work keeping my tub clean (well, and the filters, natch).  Just like RDSpaguy, I have clean clear odorless water which lets me hop straight from the hottub into bed without the need to rinse off. 

The Motomassager on the Hotspring tubs is proprietary to that brand, jet oscillation speed and pressure can be adjusted by closing off other jets around the tub.  Some people love them, others loathe them.  You won't know until you wet-test a Hotspring Highlife tub to confirm how you feel about them.   Same with the Jet-packs on the Bullfrog - very innovative design, but the shape of the jetpacks means every seat feels a bit "wide" and more upright due to the need for the packs to slide in and out.  Some people love the versatility of swapping out packs and finding your favorite seat/pack configuration, other's dislike the jetpack design for various reasons.  You might like it or hate it, won't know until you wet test.

Personally the lounger in the Jetsetter is my favorite seat, I like to divert full pressure to the motomassager and the foot jets to get a deep massage while I stargaze at night.  My wife finds the motomassager too powerful and painful at max pressure, but I enjoy it.  Honestly, I'm impressed how much power this tub has on 110AC.

If I had 220v to the location, I would have absolutely spent the few hundred bucks more to get the Jetsetter LX over the Jetsetter, but due to my 110AC requirement, I opted to get the optional speakers instead.  All in I was just around $9k in my LCOL area for the tub delivered and installed last November.... but that was before the pandemic when things were far more stable.  I highly doubt many dealers are pushing to move product right now at a discount when there is already a 6+ month wait for new orders. 

 

[gwmac]

I just got back from all my errands and decided to visit three dealers. The Jetsetter LX was being sold at 9,400 with the regular model about 1,000 less. I liked the tub but when he told me that the salt water cells have to be replaced every 4 months and cost $100 each that threw me for a loop. I doubt if I ever paid more than $60 a year with old HT with an ozonator using Bromide and shock and PH balancer. Are these cells much cheaper online because an added cost of $300 a year is a bit much.

Next I went to the Bullfrog dealer. He quoted me A5L $10,149 R5L $8,353 and X5L $6,285. The last place was more for a swimming pool place that had Hot Tubs on the side selling the Clearwater brand. The Evergreen series runs from $7,395 to &7,995 depending on options. 

I liked the Hot Spring and Bullfrog though I wish the Jetsetter had more jets.He told me that my current GFCI box probably wouldn't work since the Hotspring required 2 connections but that the tub included a new box. 

The Bullfrog dealer only had one model of the Bullfrog on display because they were nearly sold out so I'm not sure how those 3 models compare. But it looked very comfortable and I am sure I would be satisfied with any of them. 

Overall it was a valuable trip because I also got to ask for contacts for laying the cement patio after I tear down my deck and also mentioned if they knew people to haul away my old one.

 

By the way, have you guys heard of Thermospas? I was wondering how you would rate them.

 

(EDIT) I think I found those  silver cartridges that need to be replaced every 4 months on the Jetsetter and they list for only $31. I was leaning towards the Jetsetter so that might just seal the deal. Now to the hard work of prepping my site. Thanks for the help guys. It looks like you sold me on Hotspring.