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Rob1984qp

CalSpa Windsor 852 - Water Issues

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Hello,

Firstly nice to meet you all and hope your all keeping safe in these troubled times.

 

I seem to be having a recurring issue with my water approximately 3-4weeks into its life span with foaming issues.

 

Each week I clean the filter, add in O-care product 170ml per bottle, check Bromine,PH,Alk and adjust as needed.

Am I missing something in my activities?

I use bromine slow dispense via my Darlly Filter dispenser - Should I be shocking the water too maybe?

Thanks

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What is O-care?

Yes you should shock after each use.

Foam is usually the result of oily products and detergents you bring in with you. Rinse bathing suits, don't wash. No lotion, makeup, hair conditioners, and such in the water. Shower before use.

There are products for foam if it is unavoidable.

 

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O-care is the same as aqua finesse from what I can gather, it prevents biofilm.

So even though I have bromine in slow dispense which is keeping the level in range I need to shock with bromine granules?

I am about to drain the tub in the next couple of days as I think its past the point of no return with the foaming, TDS is around 600 at the moment.

 

I was reading the below process from another site so looking at taking this forward. Im based in the UK so I don't understand some of the terminology such as laundry bleach (would domestos work?)

 

Here is a step by step:
1) On each fill balance the water (adjust TA and pH. Add calcium if below 125 for acrylic spas or below 200 for plaster). More info here on balancing spa TA and PH, How do I use Chlorine in my Spa (or pool)?. If you have metals in your water add a metal sequesterant.
2) On each fill add sodium bromide to the water. (Follow manufacturer's directions on dosing. You will end up with about a 30 ppm concentration of sodium bromide.)
3) Shock with your preferred oxidizer (chlorine/bleach or MPS) and turn on the ozone if you are using it. Your bromine levels should now be above 10 ppm. Wait until they drop below 10 ppm before entering spa.

4) If using a 3-step system add your floater with bromine tabs and adjust it to maintain a 4-6 ppm bromine level. If using a 2-step system add your preferred oxidizer as needed (and adjust your ozone) to maintain a 4-6 ppm bromine level.

5) Shock weekly to burn off organics that collect in the water. (If you are using ozone and your bromine levels are staying at 4-6 ppm then you can shock less often.) Wait until the bromine level drops below 10 ppm before entering spa.

6) Test bromine and pH before entering spa each time. Test all water parameters (bromine, pH, TA, Calcium Hardness) weekly.

7) Drain and refill about every 3-4 months.

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As bromine combines with organic contaminants it becomes bromide, just as it started. You must oxidize (shock) to convert it back to bromine. Adding more bromide will not shock. You need chlorine or mps, just as you do at fill. Tablets are mostly chlorine for this reason, but I do not recommend them as they feed directly into the equipment causing damage to heater and seals. I would just shock a bit after each use.

Ozone can't be adjusted. It acts as a continuous shock but will also gradually deplete your bromide reserve.

@dlleno, @Cusser, do you have anything to add?

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Hmm, all confusing to me but really appreciate your help.

 

I don't have a ozone or uv on this tub so I have to do my own oxidisation by the looks of it, it has a Darlly sc702 filter with one of the filter dispensers which I've loaded with bromine tablets, these - https://www.poolandspacentre.co.uk/products/spa-bromine-tablets-1kg-rwa.html

 

I then have this as the shock. https://www.poolandspacentre.co.uk/products/spa-bromine-granules-rwa.html

 

I cannot use trichlor as recommended by calspa or it voids my warranty so need stay away from that.

 

Could anyone possibly recommend me a UK test kit also I see the taylor ones but they are awfully expensive and only seem to be available in the states.

 

From what i gather on the process I need to upon clean out -

1 adjust ph / alk / ca

2 shock with bromine granules which has bromide within it.

3 recheck ph/alk/ca

4 check bromine levels

5 fill dispenser with bromine slow release tablets

6 oxidize with something but not sure what to use just yet. Possibly bleach as everything else seems excessively expensive

 

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2) bromine granules are not bromine, but sodium bromide which must be oxidized (shocked) into bromine. Neither bromine nor sodium bromide is a shock. You must use chlorine or non-chlorine shock (monopersulfate or mps for short) to "activate" your "reserve" (bromide).

3) shock will throw off your readings, wait several hours to test again.

5) bromine slow release tablets are mostly chlorine and serve to convert bromide to bromine slowly. Tablet feeders are bad for your equipment, as they release high concentrations of chemicals that go straight to your pump and heater before mixing with the water in the tub causing increased equipment damage. You can do what they do with frequent additions of chlorine or mps (after each use).

6) if you follow my instructions on 5) you will not need additional shocking unless it goes unused for a week or so.

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Thankyou so much for all your help. Really appreciate. I'll take this forward.

With my slow dispenser I will remove as fully now understand the impact it can have on my hardware. As I'm sat on a 5kg tub is it worth a separate floating dispenser that sits in the tub rather than directly in the filter to allow the slow release / activation of the bromide and reduce my need to oxidize?

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Looks like my water is actually coming back. The TDS is at 810-820 so i figure half life right now, im right in saying i need to be aiming to change when close to 1500.

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Floaters just end up at the skimmer and are no better than your feeder. If you insist on using one, tie it off to something. I would not use it at all.

Drain/ gfill at 1200 tds.

 

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Cheers, ive just paid for a 5kg tub of tablets so i guess only other alternative is to crush them all up and use as my oxidizer until i depleate it?

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Makes sense. I guess they will keep.

What would you recommend, chlorine or mps as oxidizer? 

 

Thanks again, I really feel I'm moving mountains with your guidance 🙂

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You don't need cya in a bromine spa. You don't need to be concerned about calcium. Your cheapest oxidizer is liquid chlorine (sodium hypochlorite, bleach).

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Doesn't chlorine produce CYA though? I just watched a video using dihlor vs cal hypo.

The guy was saying chlorine produces CYA this is the one I watched-

 

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I guess key is in the name, calcium gone?

I've just downloaded a handy little app.

 

Any recommendations for ph increase be it borax, soda ash or washing soda? Soda ash seems easiest to get hold of in UK.

PH down seems to be dry acid easiest too in UK.

 

I think I'm on to a winner!!! Thankyou ever so much for your help sir! Really appreciate the time and effort you have made to help me gain the knowledge and understanding to run my little chemistry set 🙂

 

Next objective... how to make the hot tub bring me a beer from the fridge 🙂

 

 

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Chlorine does not produce cya, but some forms of chlorine contain cya, dichlor being abot 45% cya, tablets also contain some cya. Cyanuric acid is sold as chlorine stabilizer, and slows chlorine burn off from uv (sunlight). It also is used to stabilize some packaged chlorine to prevent unwanted reactions and rapid depletion in packaging. Once cya exceeds about 50ppm it binds with the chlorine preventing the chlorine from binding with organic contaminants (sanitizing). So high cya is bad news for your water. 

Borates are a ph stabilizer, not a ph adjuster. Soda ash or baking soda will raise ph.

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Cal-hypo (calcium hypochlorite) is not a good idea for spas due to the frequency of shocking and the resulting high calcium levels. It also must be pre-dissolved or it can bleach out surfaces where it settles.

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Cheers, I have my eye on a Scuba II tester so hopefully will help me confirm those results. I think I'll purchase one of those calcium checkers as they are only a few pounds.

 

Cheers for all your help once more

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Just collected my bleach, ph up and down. Water is up at about 850 TDS, just awaiting one of the cleaner pucks to arrive then ill be dumping the water for deep clean and fresh startup. My scuba ii should also arrive in the next day or so along with reagents.

 

I must say thought the water feels, smells and looks much better with your very helpful advice.

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Hey, me again, you favourite UK Hot Tubber 😛

So when i drop the water from my tub on the next cycle I need a little more guidance.

I believe i need to get the Sodium Bromide around 10-15ppm to give me a "bank" (Does it give out cash lol)

The Bromine Granules i have are both DiChlor and Sodium Bromide. The sticker recommends for new setups 20mg/l which for my tub ive calculated to around 106grams but i dont know what this provides in way of bromide to the bank. Is there a way to test for Sodium Bromide PPM as a stand alone?

https://www.poolandspacentre.co.uk/products/spa-bromine-granules-rwa.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw5vz2BRAtEiwAbcVILwAm61sYcN65Fv4tWdfziXyqy4Cy7VGeayTU4P1O8JpkIaAkXViw-BoCEoQQAvD_BwE

Is it worth me purchasing just Sodium Bromide or am i better to use this as i read somewhere that its wise that i have some CYA (30ppm?) which i believe is in the DiChlor to allow me to use the Sodium Hypo i purchased.

Cheers

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Second question the Sodium Hypochloride i purchased is very strong. Ive seen people talk about 5 and 6%, the one i purchased is 14%/15%.

I understand 1 cup US is around 236ml, ive seen people say half a cup, a cup, 20ml etc...

Is it a case of take say 10ml and see what reaction there is to the bromine levels after 20mins?

450gal / 1703L

 

Cheers as always.

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Bromine does not need or is affected by cya.

Sodium bromide cannot be tested as it is not an oxidizer in that form and can only be tested once converted into bromine, which is done with oxidation (shocking). Dichlor is an oxidizer so is there with the sodium bromide to oxidize it into bromine. If you buy it separately you will need to oxidize separately.

Best to try a little at a time to figure out your needs.

Here is a great article from Taylor (test kit manufacturer) on the subject.

https://taylortechnologies.com/en/page/123/whats-best-for-a-spa-chlorine-or-bromine

  • Thanks 1

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Another great bit of guidance sir. Thankyou.

 

Especially loved the comment "It has been reported that the average person produces about one pint of sweat during a 15-minute soak in a spa." Yummy lol

  • Haha 1

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