Newbie with Gulf Coast spa (Gecko spa pack) errors

[RF_Burns]

Newbie to the forum.  I have a Gulf Coast Spa LX5000 circa 2006 purchased from a neighbour who was moving.   He had just replaced the pump and some of the jets, I replaced the final 4 jets.

Finally got a pad and electrical hooked up, cleaned it and filled it. While bringing it up to temperature it stopped heating and reported a Rh-Nf (no flow) error, yet there was water flowing.  Cycling the power would get it heating again, but then would stop again.  It seemed if I set the temperature to just a few degrees above the current temperature it would heat again and finally got it to 100F.  We were able to use it a few times but randomly I found it again had a no-flow error.  I removed the filters and also the strainer on the bottom of the tub because I noted the high speed flow was not as aggressive as I though it should be.  I still had no-flow errors after that and no increase in flow.  I also taped the shaft of the knife valve at the input to the pump case it was sucking air.  I also made sure all the jets are open.

Yesterday I found it had a P1-Er (pump 1 error).  Cycling the power, the motor did not restart and it came up with the error again.  I did some troubleshooting (I'm an electronics guy ex-farmboy mechanic type)  I had a little pie shaped BeachComber tub from '92 till 2013 that I converted from air switches to PLC control and temperature control using an industrial PID temperature controller.  I could not read any voltage to the motor, but then its not in an easy spot to get to and once I thought there was voltage there, but the motor wasn't making a sound so not the start capacitor.. maybe the thermal cut-out? I left the spa breaker off overnight. This morning the pump would operate again but cut out after about 2 minutes. The display still shows the motor as running but then reports a pump 1 error

Observations:

- The pump on high speed never seemed to have the power that my old BeachComber did, so I'm thinking there is an obstruction.  I checked for debris at the input of the pump today and found none.

- The Gecko controller monitors the motor current so I put it through the current learning mode again.  On high speed it records 10.4 Amp and 3.7 Amps on low speed... the motor is 2HP and the plate reads 8.4 Amps and 2.4 Amps... so the motor is drawing more current than it should. 

- I attached my voltmeter with clips and observed the pump voltage goto zero when the spa pack reported the Pump 1 error.

So I'm thinking there must be an issue within the pump, or a restriction between the output and the jets.  So, I think this restriction is loading the motor causing it to overload and the current detection in the spa pack shuts OFF the motor and reports the error.

So my question is, what should my next step be?  I'm thinking pulling the pump apart and checking for debris inside.  There is not much after the pump to cause an obstruction...

What say ye?

 

[RDspaguy]

Sounds like a plan. You might want to check the centrifugal switch in the motor as well, or bring it to a motor shop to have it checked. Assuming you don't find a blockage in the impeller.

@CanadianSpaTech, another gecko for you buddy.

[RDspaguy]

Also, some motors have a start capacitor and a run capacitor. Could be a bad run capacitor.

[RF_Burns]

Canadian here too (s. Ontario)

Only has a single capacitor that I can see.  Its a Flo-Master XP2e pump.

I was hoping to save the water since I just added the Natural Solution on the recommendation of a friend.  The valves are leakers though.

If I don't find anything in the pump, I'll take the motor to a local shop and have them check it.

Since its a new pump, will I need new parts to reassemble? or if there is no trash will the seals still be good...

 

 

[RDspaguy]

Should be fine.

[CanadianSpaTech]

Yes check wet end for debris, What Gecko pack is it? Are you sure the "New" pump is wired correct? I am in Milton where in S Ont. you at?

[RF_Burns]

I'm in the sticks near London, not far from the GM Camy Plant.

The label says In.XM-3 with an in.Therm heater and ink450 control panel.  I have a single Flo-Master XP2e pump

I've checked the wiring of the pump and the operating voltages and it checks out.

 

[CanadianSpaTech]

See page 31 but sounds like you tried most of it already... https://spacare.com/productimages/pdfmanuals/Gecko/Service_manual in_xm.pdf

13 hours ago, RF_Burns said:

maybe the thermal cut-out?

Could be

Again leave filters out, Check for closed gate valves and also check face of pump for debris

[RF_Burns]

Honey-do list was too long today... maybe I can get to it tomorrow.. in the rain!

 

[RF_Burns]

So I was going to dump the water this morning and pull everything apart looking for an obstruction... But first I thought I would check the motor current with my clamp on AC ammeter.   It reads ~ 7 amps on high speed.  The motor data plate reads 8.4 Amps on high speed (that would be at Max load I am assuming)

So I put the unit into a Low Level current learn mode to see if something had changed.  The in.XM still reads the high speed current as 10.8 Amps and the low speed as 3.7 Amps.

I'm more inclined to believe the meter over the Spa pack.

So I let it run and its been going for about 1.5 hours now with no issues... warmed up from 74-81F

 

[RF_Burns]

Well it ran for over 3 hours and got to 92F before it shut down saying Rh-nF (no water flow).  Pump would come back ON manually, current was the same @ 7 Amps on hi-speed. Voltage ranged between 225 and 230V.

So I'm dumping it and checking for any obstruction.  The flow on high speed doesn't seem to be up there where I think it should be.

 

[RF_Burns]

So I disassembled the pump and found the impeller to me looks way too small!  There is about 3/4" clearance at the closest point to the housing.  I'm thinking it should be much bigger...

See the photo with my screwdriver between the impeller and housing for reference.

The impeller has 2HP:2200 on it.  This is a 2HP (56 frame?, over 6" wide) says Flo-Master XP2e     XP2e-632022 on it.

Edit:

So I should have looked this up first, but this appears to be correct for a 2HP motor.  I'll keep looking for more issues.

[RF_Burns]

The sun is too bright to my borescope camera to seen down the piping, so I'll wait till the sun sets.

I did find a stainless steel band on the inlet to the in.Therm that is not attached to the case. There is one band on each end of the in.Therm which I am assuming senses the inlet and outlet temperature.  The band on the inlet side has come away from the housing and could obstruct water flow.  You can see (or I can see) marks where the end of the band scratchs the opposite end of the band, so it does move. The only way I can think of to fix it would maybe to epoxy it to the housing. I'm not sure if the epoxy would stick.

[CanadianSpaTech]

How many jets in the spa. You are comparing it to your old Beachcomber that likely had a "5 HP" pump (12 amp...4 hp - 16 amp...5 hp) and your current one at 8 amp will have a lot less flow for sure. 

Finding intermittent flow issues can be difficult but you are doing all the right things so far. 

Only things I can add are:

Look to the bottom of the filter housing for a spring loaded flapper and ensure it is opening and closing. It will stay closed when on low for filtering and heating and should flip open when it goes into high. Not likely the cause of the rh-nf error though.

There may be a one way check valve somewhere in the 2" plumbing system that has broken off and partially blocking flow (also spring loaded). If you can run your scope through the foot well pump returns or down the filter housing you might find one. ..but the spa might not have one so..... 

Next time the spa is running put your hand over the foot well pump returns and see if they are sucking evenly

[CanadianSpaTech]

In the end I think the in.therm remote heater will have to be replaced. There are no serviceable parts inside...(sensors) that I am aware of and are likely the cause of the RH-NF error. 

There is a great parts store in London https://www.poolandhottubdepot.com/gecko-in-therm-remote-heater-4kw/ 

That is local to you. If you are willing to make the drive I can help you out and save you a few $$ through my wholesaler. Send me a PM or give me a call if you do.

 

[RF_Burns]

I picked up some Marine JB Weld and epoxied the metal sensor band to the side of the in.Therm. I'll see in the morning if it sticks... JB Weld website says it adheres to PVC and "most" metals.

I could not find obstruction with the borescope camera this evening.

I counted 32 jets on this one, so you are right, our old BeachComber likely had the same size pump but less than a dozen jets.  I know the pump was replaced, but I'm not sure if 2hp was the same as the original size.  The Gecko site says the in.Therm requires a minimum flow of 18 gallons/minute.  The pump runs on High when calling for heat, but I see references to heating at low speed.  When I do a Low Level setup and it does a current learn on the motor, it seems to run at high speed during high speed current learn, and low speed when doing low speed current learn.

I wish I could determine for sure where the issue is. I don't want to spend $800 on an in.Therm only to find out it was something else! (retired now, no income!)

Thanks for you ideas!

 

 

[CanadianSpaTech]

Should heat and filter in low speed only so something is off. When you power up the spa without touching any buttons on the topside does the pump naturally start in high or low? It should start in low.

You say the pump was replaced...has it run normally since it was replaced? If the pump starts in high speed the pump might be wired wrong with the red and black wires needing to be swapped around. 

[CanadianSpaTech]

10 hours ago, RF_Burns said:

I don't want to spend $800 on an in.Therm

 

I'll fix you up if it gets to that point

[RF_Burns]

He replaced the pump and jets and cover in Jan/18.  He started getting errors again (not sure what errors) in the summer of 2018. He was told he needed another new pump, but they were moving so he didn't fix it. I assume it was working fine for the 6 months or so till he started getting errors again.  I bought it from them in August/18,  and found the knife valve at the input to the pump was partially closed, retainer clip was missing.  So I thought I found the problem, but then I was diagnosed with cancer, so chemo delayed things more than a year.  Finally just got it hooked up now.

If I cycle the breaker, I'm pretty certain it powers up at high speed.  I'm also pretty certain it does the filtering at high speed.  It looks to have an OEM Gecko power cord to the motor...

White -common     Red-high speed    black-low speed   green-ground, unless red and black are opposite on the Gecko cord.

If I start the motor manually, it starts at high speed, then second press goes to low speed, third press turns motor OFF.  If that is opposite from normal operation, then the motor speeds must be backwards.

I can try reversing the motor connections when I refill it today.  It would make more sense to heat on low speed.  I was going on the premise that it wasn't reading enough water flow.  It looks to have a temperature sensor on the input and output of the in.Therm.  I'm assuming it would want to see the output temperature slightly higher than the input.  If input and output were close to the same temperature when calling for heat, then there isn't enough flow.  The in.therm spec is minimum 18 gallons/minute, which seemed more than low speed could deliver.

Thanks again for your help!

 

[RF_Burns]

14 hours ago, CanadianSpaTech said:

Should heat and filter in low speed only so something is off. When you power up the spa without touching any buttons on the topside does the pump naturally start in high or low? It should start in low.

You say the pump was replaced...has it run normally since it was replaced? If the pump starts in high speed the pump might be wired wrong with the red and black wires needing to be swapped around. 

IT'S WORKING!  so I swapped the high and low speed wires and did a low level learn of the motor current... that seems to have fixed the issue! :)

I notice now the spinner on pump 1 spins slow on slow speed and fast on fast speed.  So I'm guessing when the pump was replaced, the Tech got the wires backwards. 

Refilled the tub and as of 9pm it was still running and heating up.

Thanks very much for your help !

 

[CanadianSpaTech]

That's great. Let me know if you need anything down the road. Enjoy!

[RF_Burns]

Well, I spoke too soon.  Went out this morning and it was running doing its filter cycle.... but it was displaying rH-nF (no flow).  The water temperature is 95F while set = 100F.  So I'm thinking it didn't make it to 100F

I'll cycle the power and see what happens.

Update, I just walked back out, the error has cleared and the temp says 99F and shows the heater ON.  I'll just let it be and see what it does.

I'm an electronics guy and one thing that drives me crazy is applying too much electronics and algorithms to a simple requirement like this... water flow.  I used to goto Las Vegas alot for conventions.  Every revolving door was motorized and computer controlled... "Please move forward..." it would stop and go.  There would be a line up of people trying to get through the revolving doors.  I would just walk through the normal door on either side... then need to stand there and wait for my hi-techy buddies to get through the stupid computerized revolving doors.  Just disconnect the computer and let the people push the revolving door!! it works!

//rant-off

 

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by RF_Burns
updates info

[RF_Burns]

So it still comes up with no-flow errors.  After cycling the power it was about 90 minutes bringing the temp up from 99 to 100F, but no errors.

Anyway, see what happens.

 

[RF_Burns]

So,  The hot tub continued to throw "No Flow" errors randomly, but if I just ignored it, it seemed to correct itself and worked till about a week ago.

Then motor quit and the pool started to cool with Rh-nH (no heat) error.  I could heat the spa pack relays click, but no voltage to the motor... fuses Ok etc.  I sent an email to Gecko who told me to measure the motor voltages, if no voltage the Spa Pack needed to be replaced.  Obviously they didn't read the whole email since I stated I already did this.

So I opened the spa pack and found there was no conductivity through the main Line 2 relay. Opened the relay and found pitted contacts which I cleaned and now the motor runs fine.  But it continues to give a "no Heat" error unless I  reduce the heat setting below the current water temperature.  When I raise the setting, the "No Heat" error returns.  I monitored the voltage across and current to the heater element and it remains at zero... so it never applies power to the heat element.  There is power at the relays, but I can't detect them operating.  The dispay never shows it calling for heat.

So either the spa pack is not telling the in-therm to heat, or the in-therm is not responding to heat request or just returning bad info. So I don't know which is bad...  I see I can buy a whole in.xm2 and in-therm kit, or maybe I can goto to a simpler system...? an in.xe or in.y series??

This is just a simple hot tub, single 2-speed pump, heater and ozone module. 

any ideas?

 

[CanadianSpaTech]

Think I have a used XM pack if you want to make the drive (Guelph Line and 401). Try it and if it works out for you...buy it...if not return it no charge. Send me a PM with your number if you are interested. Sorry I don't have the In.Therm unit to go with.