Buyer Needing Purchasing Help

[GBH]

I am looking at a Hot Spring Envoy or a Caldera Geneva.  They seem similar.  One difference that I found, is that the Hot Spring has two pumps (1 - 2hp "two speed" and 1 - 2.5hp "single speed) while the Caldera has two pumps (1 - 2.5hp "two speed" and 1 - 2.5hp "single speed").  Both brands are part of Watkins Welness.  I looked up the pumps and while they have different names, they are the same in terms of specs between the two companies.  The tubs have similar features.  Hot Spring has Moto Massage, and the Caldera has the Euphoria jets (So, I consider them a push).  They both have salt water systems.  Warranty is the same.  Controls are even very similar.  So, if price was similar would not going with the Caldera because it has a larger pump package make sense?

[CanadianSpaTech]

Is the amp draw on hi and low the same. Don't go by "hp" ratings they are often misleading

[RDspaguy]

As you said, they are both watkins and very similar. I would wet test your options and choose the one you like. Are they both from the same dealer? 

@castletonia, your thoughts?

[ratchett]

9 hours ago, GBH said:

  Hot Spring has Moto Massage, and the Caldera has the Euphoria jets (So, I consider them a push).

Have you wet-tested the MotoMassager and Euphoria jets yet? Or simply going off marketing descriptions?  My wife and I are huge fans of the Motomassager jet because of how far it travels up and down the spine - I like how you can control the oscillation speed simply by opening or closing other jets around the tub.

I'm a Hotspring fanboy (loving my 2019 Jetsetter). Planning to trade in for an Envoy in a few years once I finish redoing my backyard.   So naturally I vote for the Envoy.  But you really need to wet-test to see which tub you like better, and if they are different dealers be sure to research customer feedback online about each dealer to see which does a better job servicing spas after purchase. 

 

[castletonia]

As a dealer for both, if you came into my store I would tell you to buy the hot tub that was most comfortable to you.  

The Envoy has the Moto-Massage, the No-Bypass filtration, wireless touchscreen control panel and full synthetic frame.  The Geneva will have the Euphoria Jet, the Atlas Neck Collar, fixed touchscreen control panel and FiberCor insulation.  The Geneva has more jets which is why the bigger pump.  I absolutely love the Moto-Massage but I don't fit great in the Envoy lounger (If it were me, I would be choosing the Aria because it fits better).  The Envoy should be about a $1,000 more.  

If it was the same dealer and price was the same, I would still tell you to buy the hot tub that is most comfortable to you.  I could care less about the size of the pumps.  Its about comfort and actual jet feel.

[GBH]

Appreciating everyone's responses.  Sadly, that two spas are at different dealers.  The Hot Spring dealer does not have an envoy on the floor (in fact they have no tubs with water), so I can't test the moto-massage.  The Caldera fits well.  To be honest, after reading the reviews, I might need to travel to find a Hot Spring dealer with a tub on the floor I can test.  I thought I had made my choice, but with the comments about moto-massage, I think I need to find a hot Springs to test.  Saltwater system is high on the requirement listing.  Would you say that the systems are equal on both tubs?  Are there other tubs that come with a manufacturer produced Saltwater system?  I could only find Hot Springs and Caldera.  I know you can add them to most tubs, but I've been given conflicting information the the fact that it voids the warranty.  Specifically, I have three bullfrog dealers give me conflicting information.  Bullfrog was the tub leader (A7L) which we loved, but the conflicting information has ruled it out.

[castletonia]

The salt system is identical on Hot Spring and Caldera.  For the most part, Hot Spring and Caldera are the ones with saltwater.  I believe Arctic Spas does as well, but being I haven't had a local Arctic dealer in over 10 years I'm not really up on what they are doing.  With any other brand of hot tub, if you add anything that is not an option the manufacturer offers you technically void your entire warranty.

Given the amount of money you are spending I think you owe it to yourself to try and wet test the Envoy if possible.  I'm a huge fan of the Moto-Massage but its not worth it if you don't fit well in the Envoy.

[RDspaguy]

No disrespect to castletonia (whom I greatly respect) or watkins products, but I think basing your decision on whether it has a chlorine generator (salt system) is a mistake. I am not a fan of so called salt systems even in pools, and ESPECIALLY not in spas! Get the spa you like and are comfortable in. Chemical maintenance is easy, and I personally would much rather have an ozone generator than a chlorine generator. Just my 2 cents worth...

[CanadianSpaTech]

12 hours ago, RDspaguy said:

Chemical maintenance is easy, and I personally would much rather have an ozone generator than a chlorine generator. Just my 2 cents worth...

Agreed

[tagyerit]

If you want to have some fun and see if a dealer knows up from down take a Taylor kit in when you wet test.

[RDspaguy]

I bring one when I travel and test hotel pools before letting my family use them. I even threatened to call the health department on one it was so bad.

[GBH]

Got back today from testing out both the Geneva and Envoy.  Different Dealers.  Liked both.  Liked the lounge better in the Geneva, but liked the captain chair better in the Envoy.  The wife liked the Geneva and I liked the Envoy.  We debated the construction.  Geneva wooden frame...the Envoy is polymeric.  Insulation is fibercor on the Geneva and Spray foam on Envoy.  I really liked the filtration system on the Hot Spring a lot.  Both are salt water (again a big thing for us and a must have).  It was the price that caught us off guard.  We are going to compare the cash prices.  Envoy $12,300 and Geneva $14,200.  Both are to be built (so with the factories just coming back on line, it will take 6-8 Weeks).  I did not expect the difference to this large between the two.  If we finance any portion of the deal, the gap gets even bigger.  Envoy $13,600 and Geneva $16,400.  Both come with all the same items (Starter chemicals, set up, stairs, top of the line lift and cover).  When I later pushed back on the Geneva Dealer for a better price (to keep the wife happy), but they were firm.  I mentioned the Envoy pricing and they said the Geneva is a higher price tub.  I later spoke to a dealer who sells both tubs.  Asked if he could meet the price for the Envoy and was told no, but he could meet the price for the Geneva for either the Envoy or the Geneva.  Looks like the Original Envoy Price seems to be a good price.  Thoughts?  I'm in the Midwest.  We have two other Caldera dealers within 1.5 hours, so I thought about pricing them.

[CanadianSpaTech]

9 hours ago, GBH said:

it will take 6-8 Weeks

Personally I would be hesitant to take them at their word on this. 2 Local retail stores I spoke with earlier this week (different brands) said they are 12 weeks out at best from any new stock. Everything they have on the floor is sold. Going to be a tough go for them in the coming months. Surprisingly in my area (Toronto, Canada) demand is high right now and it is going to take a good amount of time for manufacturers to catch up on orders with production likely only running at half speed as they try to reopen safely. I can see supply chain could also become a big problem if they are using parts and pieces in their spas that come from outside the US, Mexico or even worse China.  The smaller mom and pop retailers might not be as high on the list as manufacturers might try to satisfy larger retail chain/volume stores first.  

Might be a good idea to expand your search to find one or the other in stock. JMO.. Good luck in your search

[castletonia]

I pay more more for the Envoy than Geneva. FWIW.   Price is very good on Envoy and the Geneva Is priced about where it should be meaning it’s not a low or high price.

The dealer you purchase from is obligated to service the hot tub under warranty.  Those other Caldera dealers prices are irrelevant.  Your dealer does not have to service the hot tub if bought elsewhere.

Can’t comment on lead times because Watkins hasn’t told us yet.  I can order Highlife Hot Spring effective Tuesday, but I can’t order anything else yet.

Even though the Envoy is a good deal, you are buying a hot tub with a lounger.  The fact you like the Geneva lounger more makes me think that is the better hot tub for you.  Otherwise I would be looking at non-lounge options like the Niagara and Grandee.

[RDspaguy]

2 hours ago, castletonia said:

The dealer you purchase from is obligated to service the hot tub under warranty.  Those other Caldera dealers prices are irrelevant.  Your dealer does not have to service the hot tub if bought elsewhere.

There you have it. Make sure the local guy will service it if you buy elsewhere. There is no profit margin in warranty service, so expect to pay for it even if he will provide service.

[GBH]

I have very much appreciated everyone's comments and advice.  It has been most helpful.  We plan to go with the local guy and the Envoy.  Now the difficult question...What colors.  We like Shale and Ice Gray, but a close runner up is Shale and Platinum.  We feel like the platinum would really show off the lights at night, but he ice gray would easier with the water spotting.  Also, the controls and pillows seem to blend in better with Ice Gray.  Are there any other compelling reasons to go with Platinum? I will say the wife and I are equally split on the two.  what are the most popular color combos?

[castletonia]

Ice Gray is a higher volume seller vs Platinum.  I personally like the look of Platinum but if it were my hot tub I would choose Ice Gray or Alpine White.  Light colors will hide water spots more than a darker color like Platinum and will also illuminate better when the lights are on.

 

[ratchett]

9 hours ago, GBH said:

I have very much appreciated everyone's comments and advice.  It has been most helpful.  We plan to go with the local guy and the Envoy.  Now the difficult question...What colors.  We like Shale and Ice Gray, but a close runner up is Shale and Platinum.  We feel like the platinum would really show off the lights at night, but he ice gray would easier with the water spotting.  Also, the controls and pillows seem to blend in better with Ice Gray.  Are there any other compelling reasons to go with Platinum? I will say the wife and I are equally split on the two.  what are the most popular color combos?

My dealer also mentioned the Ice Gray shell is most popular in their store.    But I fell in love with the platinum for my Hotspring Jetsetter, it really compliments the "spaceship spa" vibe I get from the tub.  We opted for Driftwood panels with platinum shell and have been very happy with the colors although yes, there are some details like the diverter and air control valves (and speakers) and weir gate which are not platinum colored to match the shell which does bug me slightly, but I'm still extremely happy with the tub overall.  When I trade in my Jetsetter for an Envoy I plan to keep the same color scheme (unless they release something better or more exciting, natch). 

Here's my 2019 Hotspring Jetsetter in platinum shell lit up at dusk which might help sway your opinion one way or another

[GBH]

Well, our dealer has made this difficult.  They chose to order two Envoys.  Both Shale, one with Ice Gray and one in Platinum.  So, no we will just need to wait and see them in person.  Catletonia and Rachett, you are both so kind to give me advise.  Rachett, your tub looks awesome.  In fact, it is the now the reason that we will need to wait and see them in person to make our final decision.  Thank you all.

[GBH]

Long time since my last post.  Just a quick update.  As CanadianSpaTech warned, the timing to get the spa was way off.  We ordered the tub on the first day that the California plant opened to new orders, but I guess they got slammed.  We have been notified that our tub is now completed and will shipped on Friday.  Our dealer is first on the list for delivery, so maybe in two weeks we will be sitting a new Envoy.   The color issues is still outstanding.  As I noted he has ordered two Envoys.  He reported that he has the other Envoy sold, but the buyer is willing to give us first choice of the two colors (Ice Gray vs Platinum).  He got in a full truck load of Limelife tubs a couple weeks ago and all but a few were already sold before the arrived. As I've noted previously, I have appreciated everyone's comments and advise.   I even agonized over the comments by RDspaguy about avoiding the saltwater, but in the end the wife would not give up this requirements.  We will have to see how good I get at the water chemistry.