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Weird Water Chemistry Issues


mbsaeger

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Hi - long time follower of this forum, but finally posting due to mind-numbing water chemistry issues with nowhere else to turn. Hoping to gain some clarity here.  I purchased my spa back in September, and have had water chemistry issues ever since. Originally was using the Frog@ease dichlor as my sanitizer method, but have since moved to the Frog Serene bromine method.  I end up refilling about every two months.  Within a week of filling the water is cloudy, and am completely unable to get it clear again. I've done a line flush every time I drain it too.  Although ALL recommendations (including my Spas warranty recommend a TA of 80-150, I am unable to maintain a stable PH unless the TA is 20-40, which does *not* seem right at all).

Current Chemical Levels:

Bromine: .2 (was 2.2 yesterday)

PH: 8.2 (was 8.0 yesterday before adding 4TSP of dry acid)

TA: 80 (was 100 yesterday before adding dry acid)

CH: 150

TDS: 450

 

Please let me know if I am missing info and looking forward to your recommendations.

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I am not familiar with the frog serene bromine method. Please elaborate. 

What are you using to test the water? What are your readings at fill up before you add anything? Are you on city water, well water, or softened water? What is your process to balance and sanitize your spa at start-up and routine maintenance? Do you have an ozonator in your spa? How often, how long, and how many people use it? Do you shower before use? Do you use lotions or oils on your skin? 

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Thanks for the quick reply!  The Frog serene is a Bromine floater, with an attached mineral floater. Similar to the Frog@Ease but with bromine, there Is a "Jump start" pack to establish a residual 1-2ppm of chlorine prior to adding the bromine.  I do have an ozonator, runs with the filter, 8 hours per day.  I use it probably once a day or once every other day for 30-60 mins.  Usually just me, sometimes 2 people.  No lotions or oils on skin, shower beforehand, and suits are always rinsed 4x after they're washed.  Startup procedure, I'll balance CH, add Borate (Spa Soft).  Next day I'll test and adjust Alkalinity to about 80-100, then fight with the PH for the next week, which ends up bringing the alkalinity down to 20-40, and PH will stay stable around 7.5 with minimal fluctuation.  I am on city water, but on a fresh fill my test looks like:

Bromine: 0 

PH: 7.5

Alkalinity: 54

CH: 88

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Couple things.  You have no bromine in the water.  Even when using a mineral system, you still need bromine.  Bromine level should be 5-10 ppm when used on its own but with the Frog system you can reduce it by 50%, so about 3-5 ppm.  The lack of bromine is a big reason, if not the primary reason the water is cloudy.  Alkalinity at 50-60 can be fine if the pH stays where it should be.  I personally would go lower, but YMMV.  Also, how did your CH reduce from 150 to 88?  Unless you are adding a product like Vanishing Act, I don't know any other chemical that can reduce CH which makes me question the accuracy of your test kit.

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1 hour ago, castletonia said:

Couple things.  You have no bromine in the water.  Even when using a mineral system, you still need bromine.  Bromine level should be 5-10 ppm when used on its own but with the Frog system you can reduce it by 50%, so about 3-5 ppm.  The lack of bromine is a big reason, if not the primary reason the water is cloudy.  Alkalinity at 50-60 can be fine if the pH stays where it should be.  I personally would go lower, but YMMV.  Also, how did your CH reduce from 150 to 88?  Unless you are adding a product like Vanishing Act, I don't know any other chemical that can reduce CH which makes me question the accuracy of your test kit.

He has a combo bromine and mineral floater. The last reading he posted are fresh water at fill up before he adds anything.

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Start fresh. Test and adjust alkalinity to 100ppm. Wait at least 4 hours. Test and adjust ph to 7.5. Wait 4 hours. Test to verify alk and ph have stabilized. Alk 80-100, ph 7.4-7.6.

Add borate (ph stabilizer, locks in ph and alk) if you choose. I personally do not use borate as it makes it difficult to change balance when I need to.

Add sodium bromide and install floater. Maintain bromine 2ppm minimum. Bromine is acidic so will lower your ph and alkalinity. Aeration raises ph, so if your air injector controls are open all the time you will see rising ph. Test and adjust weekly. Shock weekly using dichlor or mps per package instructions. Dichlor is ph neutral, mps is high alkalinity.

You must have a reliable test kit. Test strips are very accurate until you open the bottle on a humid day or near the spa steam or in the rain or reach in the bottle with a wet finger or etc..., then they are junk. Get a test kit.

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Thanks for the recommendations guys.  Regarding the test kit, I'm currently using a LaMotte ColorQ Pro w/Reagents to test, and it seems to be fairly accurate.  I think I am going to move away from the Frog with mineral and just go the straight bromine route to see if I can better maintain bromine levels.  Since I can't maintain PH at a higher alk level, I will have to stick keeping it around 50, which I'm totally fine with as long as its not adversely affecting anything else.   Is there any other reason that my PH would shoot up with the typical "recommended" alkalinity levels (80-100)?  When I run 80-100 alk, I can't keep my PH below 8

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The mineral purifier plays absolutely no part in this. Eliminate it and you need 5ppm bromine in your spa.

What brand of spa do you have?

Your biggest problem is adding borate before your water is balanced. You are making your job harder. Get your alkalinity right first and foremost. It is ridiculous to believe that you cannot maintain a proper ph with a proper alkalinity. Everyone else on earth can, so why not you? At 88 CH and 50ppm alk, your ideal ph is 8.1(to high for sanitizer to work). Raise alk to 100, ph ideal is 7.8 (the maximum ph for bromine to be an effective sanitizer). Raise calcium to 150 at 100 alk, ideal ph is 7.5 (ph of human eye). Your goal should be that. 150CH, 100Alk, 7.5ph. 

I would recommend you do some homework on water chemistry. You are not grasping the basics of water maintenance. A google search will bring up much more information than you need. 

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18 minutes ago, RDspaguy said:

The mineral purifier plays absolutely no part in this. Eliminate it and you need 5ppm bromine in your spa.

What brand of spa do you have?

Your biggest problem is adding borate before your water is balanced. You are making your job harder. Get your alkalinity right first and foremost. It is ridiculous to believe that you cannot maintain a proper ph with a proper alkalinity. Everyone else on earth can, so why not you? At 88 CH and 50ppm alk, your ideal ph is 8.1(to high for sanitizer to work). Raise alk to 100, ph ideal is 7.8 (the maximum ph for bromine to be an effective sanitizer). Raise calcium to 150 at 100 alk, ideal ph is 7.5 (ph of human eye). Your goal should be that. 150CH, 100Alk, 7.5ph. 

I would recommend you do some homework on water chemistry. You are not grasping the basics of water maintenance. A google search will bring up much more information than you need. 

I have a MyLife Spa, local brand made by Sunrise Spas.  My air injectors are only on when the spa is being used.   I agree that it is ridiculous that I can not maintain a proper PH with a proper alkalinity, very frustrating and it has been a constant battle since I got this in September - originally I was taking weekly samples to the pool store and they came to the same conclusion but could never explain why I could not have a Ph and alkalinity within reasonable range..  I agree about the borate treatment, originally I wasn't using that, until maybe the third refill when I thought it would maybe help my issues.  At this point I have pretty much exhausted what the internet has to offer in terms of balancing the PH and Alkalinity, which is why I've turned here.  If I raise my alkalinity to 100, then my PH shoots up to 8+, By the time I lower the PH with dry acid back to 7.5, my alkalinity is back down to 40ish...

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Fair enough. Some people come here first to let us do their research for them. I don't mind helping, but I too have a life, and expect some effort from the people asking for help.

Tomorrow I will make a couple of calls to some old co-workers and see if they have ever encountered this issue.

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20 hours ago, RDspaguy said:

Fair enough. Some people come here first to let us do their research for them. I don't mind helping, but I too have a life, and expect some effort from the people asking for help.

Tomorrow I will make a couple of calls to some old co-workers and see if they have ever encountered this issue.

Thank you, Very much appreciated.  

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Well, I drew a blank. Around here we have high alkalinity, so nobody I know has ever run into this.

So lets take a different route. Balanced water is what we are after, so lets adjust what we can.

Bring your calcium up to 200ppm

Keep alkalinty around 60 and ph 7.6. At 100 degrees, your saturation index is less than -.1, which should clear up your clouding issues.

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33 minutes ago, RDspaguy said:

Well, I drew a blank. Around here we have high alkalinity, so nobody I know has ever run into this.

So lets take a different route. Balanced water is what we are after, so lets adjust what we can.

Bring your calcium up to 200ppm

Keep alkalinty around 60 and ph 7.6. At 100 degrees, your saturation index is less than -.1, which should clear up your clouding issues.

Thank you so much, I will definitely give this a shot!  

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