Insulation Dilema...help...please.

[Hot N Wet]

So what is really the best route to take in selecting a hot tub which is going to be used in a frigid environment for about 1/2 of the year? I've been pulled in to many directions. Someone be honest and try not to sell me.

[A HELPING HAND]

So what is really the best route to take in selecting a hot tub which is going to be used in a frigid environment for about 1/2 of the year? I've been pulled in to many directions. Someone be honest and try not to sell me.

In any part of the country, friged or not, full foam insulation is going to maintain water temp and cost less. Many people out there are using the glass window idea when selling spas suggesting dead air space is more efficient in a window and therefore more efficient in a spa. If this were true home builders would not insulate the walls of a home they would leave dead air space. We all know they dont do that our walls are packed tight with insulation and it does not matter where you live fridged or hot every house has full insulation. I suppose if you wanted to see through your hot tub glass and dead air space would be better but if you want to keep down opporating cost insulate it all the way.

[Guzz]

So what is really the best route to take in selecting a hot tub which is going to be used in a frigid environment for about 1/2 of the year? I've been pulled in to many directions. Someone be honest and try not to sell me.

You need some form of insulation, period.

[Jim_The_Jim]

You need some form of insulation, period.

All of the tests in which two methods of insulation have been tested side by side has favored the thermally sealed type of insulation over the full foam.

Full foam is not a full insulation method. It is simply a cabinet stuffed with foam and the equipment with hot water is exposed to the cold.

A warm air barrier is extreme insulation because if the air is warmer than the water there is no heat loss out of the vessel. Actually the warm air puts heat in the water, while it stops all heat losses out of the vessel, and all of the equipment.

[Hot N Wet]

All of the tests in which two methods of insulation have been tested side by side has favored the thermally sealed type of insulation over the full foam.

Full foam is not a full insulation method. It is simply a cabinet stuffed with foam and the equipment with hot water is exposed to the cold.

A warm air barrier is extreme insulation because if the air is warmer than the water there is no heat loss out of the vessel. Actually the warm air puts heat in the water, while it stops all heat losses out of the vessel, and all of the equipment.

I've looked at Coleman, Marquis, and Sundance spas. All of which have differences in insulation. The most extreme being the Coleman as it is not full foamed. I take it this is the thermally sealed tub you're speaking of. What other manufacturers utilizing the warm air barrier method and which is best?

[Guzz]

I've looked at Coleman, Marquis, and Sundance spas. All of which have differences in insulation. The most extreme being the Coleman as it is not full foamed. I take it this is the thermally sealed tub you're speaking of. What other manufacturers utilizing the warm air barrier method and which is best?

Just because one person said that it's the best does'nt mean it is. Most of the major manufacturers use full foam, do a search on the subject, this has been a hot topic to the point that nobody wants to discuss it any more. I stick to my original quote " You need some form of insulation"

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I take it this is the thermally sealed tub you're speaking of.

The only problem with that statement is the use of the word SEALED; they are not. Full foam works does a great job of insulating and some of the thermal panes work well too if constructed properly but some are real energy pigs. Check these spas out carefully.

As far as who uses what; most of the bigger spa manufacturers (Hot Springs, Sundance, D1, Marquis, Calderas, Jacuzzi, Beachcomber) use full foam. Most of the rest (Coleman, Arctic, Master, Dynasty, and all the smaller guys, home depot spas and warehouse spas etc.) use the thermal pain method (some do it well, some don't).

[Roger]

All of the tests in which two methods of insulation have been tested side by side has favored the thermally sealed type of insulation over the full foam.

Every test I have seen has been a paid for test by a manufacturer that distibutes thermal pane style tubs. The results have been flawed in one way or another.

Full foam is not a full insulation method. It is simply a cabinet stuffed with foam and the equipment with hot water is exposed to the cold.

Yes Jim you are right but it does work because several manufacturers are using it to this day because of it's effieciency. I guess a bit of cold air getting to the equipment is better than alot of cold air getting to the vessel.

A warm air barrier is extreme insulation because if the air is warmer than the water there is no heat loss out of the vessel. Actually the warm air puts heat in the water, while it stops all heat losses out of the vessel, and all of the equipment.

Here Jim you are also right but.........if you take away the heat source (the pump motor) because most people only need 4-8 hours of filtering a day which leaves 16-20 hours a day there is no heat source so you are left with simply less insulation. Unless you put a motor in that will run continualy which does 2 things, prematurely wears out a motor which is in a superheated inviroment, and uses power to run 24/7. Now if it's a small circulation pump that is energy effiecient but then it puts out very little heat, so insulation and the more the better.

I prefer a combination of the 2 styles of insulation. An amount of the vessel to hold in heat while the pump is not running (the majority of the day) and one with cabinet wall insulation to utilize pump motor heat during filtration, and also hold vessel heat that leaks through the foam to keep the equipment in a warmer than outside inviroment. Both types of insulation work and neither has a clear advantage over the other. Deciding what tub to buy should not be decided by insulation style, as long as it truely is insulated.

There are no independent companies who give evaluations on spas. They are all paid (misleading) advertising. It is something that needs to go away so that consumers are not filled with confusing nonsense.

From Jim the Jim on another thread on this same forum. So you should take his advice regarding this and not what he said regarding independent test showing the thermal pane style of insulation being superior.

[spa Dr.]

So what is really the best route to take in selecting a hot tub which is going to be used in a frigid environment for about 1/2 of the year? I've been pulled in to many directions. Someone be honest and try not to sell me.

Its been my experience that I do alot more leak repairs on "non-full foam" spas. I really can't say which one is more efficient (I can but don't want to involve myself in the ongoing argument), but the full foam seem to be a little more reliable.

hope this helps

[SmilinBare]

I have never repaired a spa.

Seems to me, though, that locating a pipe leak in a full-foam spa could be one major pain in the behind.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I have never repaired a spa.

Seems to me, though, that locating a pipe leak in a full-foam spa could be one major pain in the behind.

More difficult than non-full foam? Sure, but when you're done you say "not so bad". Well worth the tradeoff IMO and the foam helps to stabilize the plumbing so I think you're less apt to have a leak in the first place. If you're worried about leaks I'd pay more attention to buying from a company with a good track record for Quality!!

[Guzz]

More difficult than non-full foam? Sure, but when you're done you say "not so bad". Well worth the tradeoff IMO and the foam helps to stabilize the plumbing so I think you're less apt to have a leak in the first place. If you're worried about leaks I'd pay more attention to buying from a company with a good track record for Quality!!

I agree, think about an inground swimming pool, all the plumbing is buried, leaks are a rarity, because the plumbing is held firm by the earth. I speak from experience, I never had a leak in an inground pool but I've had three this year in my above ground pool, because the plumbing is hanging free, full foam reduces the chance of leaks, saves you money, saves you time, and gives you peace of mind.

[Canadian Kahuna]

Just bought a spa after 3 years of looking for one. I had the same dilemma as well for some of my deciding factor. After talking to people i personally know that own tubs, some full foam others Non, the running costs seemed to be pretty much identical with similar size tubs and usage, and i'm in Northern Ontario, where winter does get as cold as -50 (sometimes lower), and -40 can be normal for weeks at a time. Even still, the highest running cost on a well used tub in the coldest month here i heard about was $25 Cdn . . . the average during the colder months seemed to be more around $15 - $20 in both types of tubs. I ended up going with a non-full foam tub, but a good quality one, because i like the fact of how easily i can have jets added later if i want (which i think i may do . . . found my favorite seat in the tub, and it needs one more jet). My father in-law has a full foam tub, and it's great as well. So like others have said, it needs "some type of insulation". Concentrate on other things other than full vs non insulation . . . like your dealer, the seats, type of jetting, warranty, ect.

[Guzz]

I have never repaired a spa.

Seems to me, though, that locating a pipe leak in a full-foam spa could be one major pain in the behind.

Yes this may be true, but what we are saying is you are less likely to get a leak in a full foam spa, I have many customers that have had their spas for 20 years and never had a leak.

[SmilinBare]

" what we are saying is you are less likely to get a leak in a full foam spa, I have many customers that have had their spas for 20 years and never had a leak. "

I don't doubt that at all. But I wonder what the reaction would be from the poor sap whose full foam tub DID spring a leak and the service tech labored for (expensive) hours to find it.

That being said, I don't think any spa is worth beans if there isn't a solid service department to back it up. Instead of just soaking in my tub, I intend to periodically get in underneath it to inspect the plumbing and underbelly integrity of the spa.

(The full foam dealers in my neck o' the woods totally turned me off with their high pressure sales tactics. Two of them (including the owner of one shop) insulted my wife by telling her she asked too many questions. I hope that at one of their future sales seminars some marketing and sales expert tells them that's a surefire way of losing a sale.)

[mendon31]

thanks for posting such a valid question. I was really focused on the whole insulation thing for a minute. I have realized that is becuase the sale reps. make such a big deal of it, i felt i should too. But after reading all these replies I realize that it should not be top priority in my priority comparison. I'm going after jets, warranty and reputation of dealer and service instead. I'm definately going to wet test once I get it narrowed down.

[spa Dr.]

I have never repaired a spa.

Seems to me, though, that locating a pipe leak in a full-foam spa could be one major pain in the behind.

I have repaired a whole lot of spas from many different manufacturers. Any time you have to fix a leaker

its a pain, with the exception of equipment leaks, its not that bad on ff spas. people will lead you to believe that a 1 hour repair on a non-ff spa will take 10 hours on a ff spa.its simply not true. A qualified, experienced service tech ,like myself, can usually find and fix any leak fairly quick.

[spa Dr.]

All of the tests in which two methods of insulation have been tested side by side has favored the thermally sealed type of insulation over the full foam.

Full foam is not a full insulation method. It is simply a cabinet stuffed with foam and the equipment with hot water is exposed to the cold.

A warm air barrier is extreme insulation because if the air is warmer than the water there is no heat loss out of the vessel. Actually the warm air puts heat in the water, while it stops all heat losses out of the vessel, and all of the equipment.

Poor Customer Service from

Jim Arjuna, The Spa Specialist

[robin]

Just bought a spa after 3 years of looking for one. I had the same dilemma as well for some of my deciding factor. After talking to people i personally know that own tubs, some full foam others Non, the running costs seemed to be pretty much identical with similar size tubs and usage, and i'm in Northern Ontario, where winter does get as cold as -50 (sometimes lower), and -40 can be normal for weeks at a time. Even still, the highest running cost on a well used tub in the coldest month here i heard about was $25 Cdn . . . the average during the colder months seemed to be more around $15 - $20 in both types of tubs. I ended up going with a non-full foam tub, but a good quality one, because i like the fact of how easily i can have jets added later if i want (which i think i may do . . . found my favorite seat in the tub, and it needs one more jet). My father in-law has a full foam tub, and it's great as well. So like others have said, it needs "some type of insulation". Concentrate on other things other than full vs non insulation . . . like your dealer, the seats, type of jetting, warranty, ect.

so canadian kahuna which spa did you buy?

[Brulan1]

I have never repaired a spa.

Seems to me, though, that locating a pipe leak in a full-foam spa could be one major pain in the behind.

Who does insulation better than Coleman??? Sleepingbags, outdoors, coolers, ect...

I am not saying Coleman does, but the brand name has been around for over 100years and over 20 years in the spa manufacturing by MaaX. Also they inherited California Cooperage at a more affordable price but still has the wooden frame. Maax by Elite is also another excellent insulater, money saver, and very durable tub. Artic spas is good also. Also, when you have full foam there isn't enough mobility in the pipes to move and what happens is the pipe streches out and causes a bigger radius in the foam and when the cold air comes in the full foam spa it freezes the line and also not enough mobility. fixing a full foam is another story. Try them all out and whatever feels better at the time just buy and learn for yourself later when you start having problems. I recomend anything that has great track record in terms of warranty and Coleman also offers that.

[Roger]

Who does insulation better than Coleman??? Sleepingbags, outdoors, coolers, ect...

I am not saying Coleman does, but the brand name has been around for over 100years and over 20 years in the spa manufacturing by MaaX. Also they inherited California Cooperage at a more affordable price but still has the wooden frame. Maax by Elite is also another excellent insulater, money saver, and very durable tub. Artic spas is good also. Also, when you have full foam there isn't enough mobility in the pipes to move and what happens is the pipe streches out and causes a bigger radius in the foam and when the cold air comes in the full foam spa it freezes the line and also not enough mobility. fixing a full foam is another story. Try them all out and whatever feels better at the time just buy and learn for yourself later when you start having problems. I recomend anything that has great track record in terms of warranty and Coleman also offers that.

Now here's someone with a different take on it than alot of people, and I am glad our opinions are allowed to be posted so we all can consider many of the differing opinions out there to make a better decision. Even if it isn't this one.

[Brulan1]

Now here's someone with a different take on it than alot of people, and I am glad our opinions are allowed to be posted so we all can consider many of the differing opinions out there to make a better decision. Even if it isn't this one.

Roger, thermal lock is the best insullation money can buy if done properly. I sent an article on another part of this forum for you to check out. Ecosmarte section dipicts this fact for you. Check it out

[Brulan1]

Now here's someone with a different take on it than alot of people, and I am glad our opinions are allowed to be posted so we all can consider many of the differing opinions out there to make a better decision. Even if it isn't this one.

what is the best R-factor or R-value a spa can have.

[Roger]

Roger, thermal lock is the best insullation money can buy if done properly. I sent an article on another part of this forum for you to check out. Ecosmarte section dipicts this fact for you. Check it out

You are allowed your opinion on this I am not going to dispute your views. There's millions of other people not buying into your views that can do that for me.

There's never been a question whether thermal lock, thermal pane, peremiter seal, heat rentention, or any of the other mumbo jumbo sales pitch names for this insulation skeem work or not, yes they are comparable to a fully foamed or a foam/peremiter combination skeem. No one here has disputed this fact. They all seem to be about the same cost to operate, except a poorly insulated design.

Our local Colman/Maxx dealer went out of business....to bad, limited our choices. But those tubs need service, that's where I come in. Seems he couldn't convince us Northern Minnesotans there insulation skeem was better.

[Brulan1]

You are allowed your opinion on this I am not going to dispute your views. There's millions of other people not buying into your views that can do that for me.

There's never been a question whether thermal lock, thermal pane, peremiter seal, heat rentention, or any of the other mumbo jumbo sales pitch names for this insulation skeem work or not, yes they are comparable to a fully foamed or a foam/peremiter combination skeem. No one here has disputed this fact. They all seem to be about the same cost to operate, except a poorly insulated design.

Our local Colman/Maxx dealer went out of business....to bad, limited our choices. But those tubs need service, that's where I come in. Seems he couldn't convince us Northern Minnesotans there insulation skeem was better.

There is a total population of 100,000 people in northern minn. also

There is a total population of 100,000 people in northern minn. also

As opposed to 5.5 million people on long island. there is more people on long island than 22 states. Go figure