Guadian (SWT) vs SpaBalancer vs Chlorine treatment

[bassie123456]

Sorry for the many posts, however I did find some product on a dutch webshop. The product is named 'Borax'. Consists of a salt named: dinatriumtetraboraat-decahudraat which seems like dutch for: dinatrium tetraborate decahydrate. Is that the right stuff?

[MPurcell]

You would want granular boric acid. Your best bet would be a an online supplier. It is not a product commonly sold in pool stores.

boorzuurpoeder = borax powder

I can't tell if that is boric acid or sodium tetraborate. For example https://www.da.nl/product/41697/boorzuur

An alternative is to use laundry borax. In the US the most common product is called 20 Mule Team Borax. The ingredient is sodium tetraborate which is a natural mineral. To use borax which raises pH quite significantly, you also need to keep the pH in balance with acid. Since borax does not increase TA very much but acid reduces TA significantly, you would also need to increase TA back to its desired level with baking soda.

[MPurcell]

Missed your previous post. Disodium tetraborate decahydrate in English. Basically the same thing as 20 mule team borax but has water bound into the molecule.

[MPurcell]

Borates in the water are definitely optional. Borates help buffer the water chemistry so that the pH drifts less. Borates also improve the "feel" of the water for many people. However, you can usually manage pH drift by adjusting TA, and water feel is quite subjective.

[MPurcell]

I was looking for this post earlier but just now ran across it.

If you decide to use the borax product, you can use the pool calculator to figure out how much to add. Down at the bottom in the "Effects of Adding Chemicals" section select sodium tetraborate pentahydrate in the dropdown. I don't know if the molecule is different but that calculation should work close enough. One chemical name says 2 sodium 4 boron 5 water and the other says 1 sodium 4 boron 5 water.

Edit: After a little study, I think the two names refer to the same chemical formula. The anhydrous form of borax molecule is 2 sodium, 4 boron and 7 oxygen atoms. The Crystaline form of borax molecule is the same formula, but either bound with 5 water molecules (pentahydrate) or 10 water molecules (decahydrate). Apparently using sodium tetraborate pentahydrate is just a lazy way of writing it.

[bassie123456]

I read that using Borax/MA is quite a struggle (https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/123049-Boric-acid-Powder-or-Granules) so I would definitely prefer boric acid since that is less trouble. 

The product you referred to (https://www.da.nl/product/41697/boorzuur) is boorzuur which translates to boric acid (zuur=acid). So that would mean this is boric acid right and I don't need to do anything with MA? If I look for the chemical formula it says 'boorzuur' is H3BO3. Doesn't say much to me, but maybe it does to you. It is a powder though, I cannot find it in granular form. 

Appeartanly I have 2 options:

• https://baking-soda.nl/product/borax/ > This obviously needs an Acid according to your research and checking the Pool calculator. The website even states (in dutch) 'Note that this is not boric acid'. 
• https://www.da.nl/product/41697/boorzuur > This must be boric acid (but in powder form). Because it literally translates to boric-acid (boor-zuur)

So I guess the second product will work for me!

One more question. I went to some local stores, and I found muriatic acid, however the concentration is < 10% of hydrochloric acid according to the label. I found the same product online as a 30% concentration solution. I think the concentration does not matter as long as the math is good about how much hydrochloric acid I am adding, right? And should I check what the rest of the ingredients of the muratic acid is, or is that always OK? Because the label does not say anything about it, it only says a percentage of hydrochloric acid.

As for the bleach, I found a bottle with no scents added (quite hard to find) and with no thickeners or anti-splash solutions added to it. It contains < 5% natrium hypochlorite. The dichlor/bleach method refers to a 6% clorox bottle, I assume that like for the muratic acid it is fine to have less percentage of natrium hypochlorite in it, as long as the math adds up? 

 

 

[MPurcell]

H3BO3 is boric acid. The chemical structure is 1 boron atom with 3 hydroxyl radicals (OH)-

If you use the powdered boric acid, you could use a large pail of water to dissolve the powder before adding to the spa. Using very hot water will help it dissolve more rapidly. If you do use the boric acid, there is very little impact on pH or TA. If you put the powder directly into the spa, I've heard it can float on the surface for a while and is hard to stir in.

The other ingredient in muriatic acid would be water. I'm not sure, but I don't think there is anything added to stabilize the acid. So the answer is yes, it doesn't matter the concentration as long as you do the math to get the result you want. If you are cost conscious, you need to think about price per unit of hydrochloric acid. The pool calculator uses six concentrations of muriatic acid at the top in the pH section, 15.7%, 28.3%, 31.45%, 34.6%, 14.5% and 29%. At the bottom under effects of adding chemicals, it gives you two concentrations for muriatic acid, 15.7% and 31.45%. So if you use another concentration, you will have to adjust the math accordingly.

The same holds true for bleach, both in terms of math and in terms of cost. In the US, if the bleach bottle does not list the concentration, it is pretty commonly 3% or less. 5.25% used to be a fairly common concentration, as well as 6%, and nowadays 8.25% seems to be the more common. There is quite a bit of variation about what is available. Over here, the stronger concentrations are sometimes referred to as ultra bleach or super bleach or something like that. However, with the pool calculator you can actually add the percentage of chlorine directly into the computation at the top where you are computing amount to add. At the bottom of the pool calculator under effects of adding chemicals, it gives you five options, 5.25%, 6%, 8.25%, 10% and 12.5%.

 

[bassie123456]

Cool, So I will order the boric acid to add borates on my next water refill. I will make sure to dissolve the powder in hot water before adding it to the spa.

The muriatic acid here is available in 2 concentrations. Either < 10% or 30%. Af for the bleach I have only found 1 bottle without added scents and it says < 5% but I will look into a couple different stores sone to see if I can get something else. As for the math, I think I will work it out using the pool calculator. 

Btw, on the bleach bottle I bought it says 'Toxic gas will be formed when in contact with acids such as muriatic acid'. Since my pool maintenance is mostly going to consist of adding acids and bleach this text frightens me a bit.. Or does this warning only apply when the bleach is mixed directly with an acid?

Edit: one more quick question. The pool calculator says my CSI is -0.35, should I worry about that? This is when I set the following goals: FC 10, PH 7,5, TA 80, CH 150, CYA 50, SALT 1000 (default value), Borate 50. These numbers are based on the dichlor/bleach method but I read that CSI must be as close to zero as possible? I noticed that the TA has most impact on the CSI, but it seems like to get a good CSI my TA should be way higher?

[MPurcell]

Don't mix bleach directly with acid even if the concentrations are fairly weak. However, adding either directly to the tub water is not dangerous.

More about CSI here.

[bassie123456]

Alright, thanks a lot! I read the article and get that on my spa it won't hurt to have a negative value using the dichlor/bleach method. Also thanks for the advice on mixing bleach with acid, I'll take care and make sure to not mix them directly or close to each other.

I'll replace my water as soon as the Taylor test kit is delivered and from then I'll start using the dichlor/bleach method with the products I can get over here. 

Many thanks to the time you put into explaining all this to me, I really appreciate it!!

[bassie123456]

I just did 2 iterations to lower my TA using muratic acid and aeration. First time the PH came up really high (8,0 after 30 minutes of aeration), second time it raised only to 7,7. However, I am wondering if it does any harm to equipment to iterate through this proces really fast. Or is it reommended to wait a day between doing a second round of adding acid and aearating the spa? 

I have added quite some acid to the pool to lower my TA, the acid concentration is only 10% so it is not very high concentrated, but I am afraid that I do damage to my spa if I add lots of acid in short periods of time? (PS: I added like 140ml of 10% acid to my 1250 liters (330 gallon) spa)

[MPurcell]

You don't have to wait.

The acid (HCl) disassociates into hydrogen ions (H+) and chlorine ions (Cl-). The ions are then available to enter into reaction with other compounds. Since you already have free hydrogen and chlorine ions in the water before you add the muriatic acid, you don't need to worry about it.

[bassie123456]

Got it! Thanks!

[bassie123456]

Hi, I ordered trichlor on a webshop (it was sold as trichlor - trichloroisocyanuric-acid (100%))

However, now it is delivered I read the package and it says: natriumdichlorisocyanurate (100%). Is this good too? I compared the chemical formula with trichloroisocyanuric-acid and the difference is the NA (natrium). Is it harmless that this contains natrium or should I sent it back and get the trichloroisocyanuric granulate instead?

Thanks! 

[MPurcell]

Dichlorocyanuric acid is the "dichlor" that is used in pools and spas. Sodium dichoorocyanurate has a different chemical formula. I do not believe it is usually used in pools and spas.

Dichlor and Trichlor are very similar chemical formulas. Dichlor has two chlorine atoms and one hydrogen atom in the molecule, and Trichlor has three chlorine atoms in the molecule. Those are the products used in pools and spas. Neither one of them has sodium.

[bassie123456]

Ok, thanks. It's weird, I contacted a few stores but they all do sell only sodium/natriumdichlorisocyanurate.. Dichlor or Trichlor is only available in pucks but not as granular to shock the water. 

Maybe I will try to crush the chloor pucks to have it dissolve faster

[bassie123456]

What is a common dichlor product sold in the US? I checked the chemical formula for this product: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Swimmer-s-Choice-Swimming-Pool-Dichlor-Granular-Shock/45379075, and it also contains sodium in it's formula? Same goes for: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Star-Plus-Completely-Soluble-Dichlor-Granular-for-Pools-Spas-50-Pound-Bucket/257713676

Here's the MSDS for both products:

- http://www.kellysolutions.com/erenewals/documentsubmit/KellyData\OK\pesticide\MSDS\86353\7364-45-86353\7364-45-86353_Swimmers_Choice_Granular_Shock_12_13_2012_5_18_03_PM.pdf

- http://www.kellysolutions.com/erenewals/documentsubmit/KellyData\OK/Pesticide/Product Label/75217/69470-20-75217/STAR_PLUS_DICHLOR_GRANULAR_2_1_2017_2_38_33_PM.pdf

[MPurcell]

I called the local pool store to check. I was wrong about the sodium dichlor. Apparently, dichlorocyanuric acid can be pressed into tabs but in granular form, they use sodium dichlorocyanurate. So the product they sent you is exactly what I would get here for granular dichlor.

[bassie123456]

Alright, got it! Thanks a lot for double checking. 

[bassie123456]

Hi MPurcell,

I have finally received the Taylor test-kit.

First of all, at the moment my water is treated with a non-chlorine solution (SWT Guardson). It does seem to do the job OK, but I am going to switch to the dichlor/bleach method on my next drain & fill (which will be next week). Mostly because I want to be able to measure what chemicals are inside my water, and with SWT I don't know what stuff I am adding. 

However, I did some tests with the Taylor kit, the results were:

• Chlorine = 0 (makes sense since I use a non-chlorine solution :))
• PH = 7.8
• TA = 30ppm

I also tested the calcium hardness, but the description says 'The water should turn red of CH is present'. However, my water turned light purple (for sure not red), is that normal? Does this mean there is no CH present, or should I continue the drop test on the purple solution? I added like 10 drops and the color did not change so the CH must be at least 100ppm I think. It couldn't be very much higher, since I filled the tub with a pre-fill calcium filter. But since I did not know if my base solution for the test was correct, I aborted the test. 

So, what I find strange is, how can my TA be so low (30ppm) and the PH still be that high (7.8). The PH is very stable at the moment btw, it does not increase anymore from aeration. But still, since the dichlor/bleach method suggests an TA of 80ppm, I don't get why my PH isn't way lower with an TA of 30ppm. I have an ozonator, could this be causing the higher PH with lower TA? Should I increase the TA in this case with baking soda or should I leave it be this low? I don't want to lower the PH using an acid anymore, since very little muriatic acid causes large PH decrease according to a test (probably due to the low TA). 

Last thing, the water is a little bit cloudy at the moment. Maybe it's more like a mist or something. You see it especially with the leds within the tub turned on. I cleaned the filter very regularely and switched to a new filter recently. The PH should be in an OK range and I use the advised dosis of SWT sanitizer. Since I am going to refill the tub next week, I doesn't really matter that much, but just in case this happens again I am wondering what could probably be causing the cloudiness. PS: The water in the tub is 2 months old, the tub is used like 3 times a week for maybe 1 - 1,5 hour at 97,7 degrees fahrenheit (36,5 degrees celcius). The tub is 330gallons large and the filter is on for like 5-6 hours a day. I already added a clarifier (leisure-time) which is meant to clear cloudy water but it did not change anything. 

Thanks again!

[MPurcell]

Go to the Extended Test Kit Directions at TFP and read the directions for calcium hardness. I don't know if you have fading endpoint, but might try that set of directions. If your sanitizer has metals in it, that could interfere with the test. But since you are changing to chlorine soon, it's probably better to just wait. You could also test your source water.

Can't comment on the cloudy condition of your current water. If you follow the dichlor/bleach method carefully, you will always have crystal clear water.

You could also test the TA of your source water. In a chlorine tub, you can go as low as 50 ppm TA because pH tends to rise and lower TA will help keep it from rising so fast. It would be good to know the pH, TA and CH for your source water. You only have to do that once and then will have that information for future reference. If you plan to use the filter when you fill the tub, test the water that has been run through the filter.

[bassie123456]

Thanks for the test-kit directions. I am going to print that out, very helpfull  

I will do a test with filtered water on my next refill to make sure I know the TA, pH and CH of the source water. 

But a TA of 30ppm and pH 7.8 is nothing to worry about? Or is this related to CH and should I know my CH value first?

All of this doesn't really matter that much for now since I am going to drain the tub next week, so it would be a waste to put much effort in getting the perfect balance on my current fill, however I thought it wouldn't hurt to get used to the Taylor tests in advance of my next refill. 

[MPurcell]

1 minute ago, bassie123456 said:

...

All of this doesn't really matter that much for now since I am going to drain the tub next week, so it would be a waste to put much effort in getting the perfect balance on my current fill, however I thought it wouldn't hurt to get used to the Taylor tests in advance of my next refill. 

Agreed. However, with your sanitizer system, I don't know how the chemicals will affect the Taylor tests, so probably best to just wait.

[bassie123456]

Got it, thanks! Looking forward to start using the dichlor/bleach method soon!

[MPurcell]

By the way, I've been using bromine for the past six months since we've had our tub. This past Saturday I treated with Ahh-some, drained, refilled and started up again using the dichlor/bleach method. My wife has always been super sensitive to chemicals, and she wouldn't even consider using chlorine when we first got the tub, probably because of the experience of chloramines at public pools. Anyway, I have convinced her to try chlorine, because the bromine has a stronger smell, and makes her nose itch. She's been out of town for a few days, but I'll let you know how she likes it.