New To Spas - Water Chemistry Hurts My Brain!

[LydiaRobinvale]

It took forever to get someone on the phone from master spas today about my pump. The first guy actually hung up on me. They finally gave me the number to a completely separate company that performs their warranty work. I called and apparently because we have had this spa fr 2 months it doesnt cover the call and it will be $100 for them to come out. Outrageous! Spend 30 thousand dollars on a spa and charge another 100 just to come out and look at their screw up? I couldnt believe it. I have to speak with the landlord tomorrow about it but he is going to have to do it or we could be looking at a more expensive repair down the road..

As for the cover yes we keep it covered. I do not know where this stuff is coming from. ALthough there are tiny gaps in the cover folds, and some stuff does get in there but this stuff is weird. Like a large sand particle and very heavy. They sink immediately to the floor of the spa. I have not physically seen one come out of a jet... But I am concerned it does have to do wit the pump which is why I need them to come out. The noise this pump is making is not normal especially for a 2 month old spa (actually only been running for 1).

I have been trying to bleach method with the lamotte tester. It seems I have to add a lot more bleach than recommended in the pool calculator and more frequently.. Perhaps because the ozone is on. How should I apply it? With the current jets on? I want it to mix good and not gather near the sides too much. Also it seems like the addition of the bleach has risen the Ph a little. Which is fine because it was slightly low. The alkalinity is still kinda low at 64. I cant seem to get either one to rise too much. Even after adding more calcium hardener I am only at 75 on that. I added an entire bottle of the Spa Guard CH.. I have more on the way. 

I looked and I have Balboa pumps. Are these able to be cleaned in case debris gets in there? I couldnt figure it out and there is nothing in the manual about it. 

Edit: You know what? This black stuff reminds me of Aluminum Oxide sand blasting media. I did use this when I was sandblasting my landlords VW Bug a while back, but I am pretty sure this was well before the spa was delivered and it was also in the garage which is on the other side of the property. I have no idea how this stuff would have gotten into the spa, or even how it would become airborne at all due to its weight. I think tomorrow I will collect some more and compare it to the aluminum oxide I have left... The spa did sit for about a month uncovered before we had it installed. Now that I think of it, this concerns me..

[arobbert]

I wonder if the black stuff is related to the pump. Did you contact the dealer? They should come and look at the pump for free. They made a good profit on the sale. Did they install it? What does the warranty specifically cover? parts only? Or parts and Labor? This sounds dishonest to me.

Have you added any dichlor? You want to use enough to establish a base CYA level of 30. This will slow down the loss of chlorine as per the instructions here:

Have you completed a CC test? If yes what were your results? High CC could cause this.

[LydiaRobinvale]

The dealer basically want nothing to do with us. I had to contact master spas directly. I am very unhappy with the treatment we have had from master pool and spas (the dealer) and master spas themselves. VERY unprofessional. And they basically dont want to help, they just want your money. We had to contact the company that deals with warranty work and it took me forever just to get that number from master spas. And guess what? $100 to come out because the warranty only covers the call out itself for 30 DAYS. The parts and labor are still covered but i have to speak with the landlord first and get him to ok it. And what if just dont want to do any work and they say nothing is wrong? Then he will blame me. There is definitely something not right with it.

Today i hadto add another 8oz of bleach. I want to keep it at 4ppm due to my 42 cya and the alkalinity and stuff. The alkalinity is 67 andthe ph is 7.4 now. The pool valculator says 3-7ppm is normal for those numbers. I went from 3 yesterdsy to 1.65 overnight. I have an ozone as well. Is this normal for the chlorine to go down that fast? I suppose i should figure out chlorine demand then

[MPurcell]

Read this post in another thread.

[arobbert]

Post your complete chlorine test results so we can help. You really need to know what your combined chlorine is.

I have an ozone unit. Knowing what I know now I never would have added it in the first place. It's probably not even working anymore. I'm going to disconnect it and all the associated tubing. It's just mixing cold air with the water at this point.

[LydiaRobinvale]

The taylor kit hasnt arrived tet. My lamotte colorq pro 7 tests free chlorine and total chlorine. I am curious to see what the difference is in the two. I added another 8oz of bleach and the test quite a few hours later the free chlorine isnt even to 3 yet (from 1.6 starting point). I feel like i am having to use a lot. Ny total chlorine was like 1.85 which i guess is super close to the fc which is good. But again i feel like i am using a lot of bleach and never quite getting to the level i need. I know my cya is at 42 as i mentioned in my last post.. But now its weird too because it seems to be increasing my alkalinity even more. The Alkalinity is at 72 now and ph sits at 7.4 for the moment. I am super confused. The pool calculator tells me what to add to get to 4ppm for the numbers i have and it is not working. I have it set to 6% bleach on there too which is what i have. 

Not a lot of black stuff today, mostly just tree particles from what i can see. But i didnt really look that close today and i didn't vacuum. Landlord had me doing stuff on the cars and i didnt even get a chance to ask him about them sending someone out to repair the pump..

[arobbert]

How many gallons is your tub? Please tell us how you know the number of gallons.

How many people have been using the tub in the past 24 hours?

Don't worry about how much you are adding. The important thing is the end result. The loss you are indicating is not unusual based on my experience. Going from 3 to1.65 is expected over about 8 hours. If I increase to 3 ppm at night after a 1/2 hour soak it will be .5 ppm by the next evening. I cut it close but test once or twice daily. Remember the rule of thumb is to start with at least 1 ppm and add 7 ppm per person per hour. That means if you start with 1 ppm and soak for and hour you need to add enough chlorine to take it up to at least 7 ppm, add 7 ppm more for each additional person.

[LydiaRobinvale]

The size of the spa is 1620 gallons at the minimum operating level which is right about where we keep it at. That level is noted in the manual that came with the spa. No one has used the spa at all in the last 2 weeks because it's just been too hot out. Like 105 here where I live. Still very hot even in the evenings.. I will note the readings in the morning.

[arobbert]

8 oz of 6% bleach in a 1620 gal tub would raise the chlorine by 2.4 ppm I would expect that to be down to 1 within 24 hours even without use especially if you have ozone and the hot temps you have. The age of your water can effect chlorine use as well. I go through more chlorine the older the water gets. There are types of chloramines that can not be oxidized. They build up gradually over time. If your combined chlorine is .5 or less you are fine. It would not be unusual for it to be a little higher if the water is old. You can not get rid of these chloramines by shocking. The solution is a water change or partial drain and fill.

[LydiaRobinvale]

The taylor test kit came in today. I tested the pool stuff first as i had just added some bleach in the spa.. Man these test kits are WAY off. The lamotte kit told me my ph is 7.8 and the alkalinity is 165. The taylor kit tells me my ph is somewhere between 8 and 8.3 because it says it turns purple at 8.4... It was way pink but not purple.. And the taylor kit also says my alkalinity is 400?! Am i doing something wrong here? That is obscenely high

[arobbert]

Did you repeat the tests to confirm your results?

The Lomotte kit can be off if it's not calibrated correctly. I've read reviews by people that used both and most prefer the Taylor. The elctronic component adds another element of error to the system. You can order samples to test and verify the accuracy of the tests. PITA but would be interesting. You can also compare to the pool store. I would lean towards the Taylor kit.

That being said your PH is high according to both tests. You should bring it down to the 7.5 range. Your AK is also high according to both tests. Get your PH in line first. Go off the Lamotte first and then compare the Lamotte to Talyor. They may become more similar when you are in normal levels. Your AK will come down with the PH. Once your PH is in line you can address the AK.

This is a pool correct? I know you have both. Spas are a little more specific but similar.

[LydiaRobinvale]

Hojestly i cant be bothered with the pool. The landlord believes none of this is necessary. He has not drained and filled the pool since the earthquake in northridge in 1996 because it caused a crack in the pool. He also has never replaced the pool filter. Some idiot out of scores of pool guys told him what he wanted to hear (that his water ans stuf would last forever as long as he threw chlorine in it) and he believes it because it is what he wants to believe. I have tried putting tons of muriatic acid in, not more than the mac each night and it doesn't do anything. He wont let me run the pump at these times so it's kind of pointless anyway. Yesterdsy he used jb weld to put back togetger the lid to his jacuuzi pump that he has had since the 80s. Hes never cleaned that either and he has it set up so the jacuzzi dumps its water into the pool. So basically the jacuzzi is constantly getting fresh water but the pool gets his nasty soup (and he doesnt bathe as i mentioned before). At this point the pool is kind of a lost cause no matter how much i would love to be able to enjoy it.

The spa is doing well. I finally got someone to come look at the pump and they pulled a bunch of dark grey plastic pieces out of it. He said the impeller looked good but it was still loud so i am going to keep an eye on it. The only thing that is botgering me now is the crazy high phosphates i cant seem to lower. I have tried both spa perfect and spa phos free and it isn't helping at all. Still high at like 500 and no one has been in the spa (but we are going in tonight)  

[arobbert]

Glad you got things sorted out. I wouldn't worry about phosphates. It should be fine until the next refill.

Found this  on another forum:

https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/50337-Phosphate-Level

[ktfjammer]

On 7/4/2017 at 9:42 PM, LydiaRobinvale said:

Yeah i know. Thats essentially the only reason he's letting me do this. And thats exactly how we had to put it to him was that if one of the tena ts gets sick, he is liable. Hes still stuck on the nature 2 stick though so i have to try to make sense of how to use that.

As i mentioned i am using a nature 2 stick with mps. I have been made aware that i must have at least .5ppm of chlorine in there at all times.. And the instructions say to superchlorinate "as needed". What i need to know is when exactly to add chlorine, and how much, to maintain that level and when to superchlorinate. And what is the difference between using the mps and the chlorine? I have an ozone generator so that is what is recommended with the nature 2 in addition to the mps. 

I also dont know how to tell how much mps i have when chlorine gives me a false high reading on the nature 2 test strips. If i need a small amount of chlorine thats fine, i am just confused on when to "shock" and what exactly to use when shocking. Especially since the mps is also called non chlorinated shock. The bottle says to add it after every use, too.

My landlord never bathes so when he uses the spa it gets pretty gross. Last week i took a samole in and the phosphates were high. They recommended i use spa perfect so i am doing that but i wasnt sure if it was safe to use right before or after the mps. It says not to use it right after shocking but i am not sure if throwing the mps in there qualifies as that... I guess i will do some more looking around on the forum althoufh i tried to search and didnt find my questions answered.

 

 

 

I am also so new to this and it is making my head hurt.  I am trying to do the right thing with my new pool and spa.  I am kinda *** when it comes to taking care of things.  With that said, I have not clue when people are taking about MPS, FC, after every soak, and any of those other terms.  Sorry for trying to figure this out

[ktfjammer]

On 7/10/2017 at 1:12 PM, MPurcell said:

Remember, Leslies and all pool stores make money by selling you things. If you manage your water by the BBB method or TFP method, they don't make any money. Besides many employees being put on the floor with little to no training, the ones who are knowledgeable and experienced also are subject to their company and industry culture. The advice you will get at the pool store and at their web sites is certainly questionable, and many times outright wrong, misleading, and unhelpful.

Here's an example. Leslie's Alkalinity Up 5 lb tub, $14.99, Arm and Hammer baking soda 4 lb box, $2.24 at Walmart. So, expect to hear the pool store employee tell you that you can't use baking soda in your pool or tub. The ingredient in each product is... 100% sodium bicarbonate.

Sorry for me not knowing I am really new at this.  What is BBB and TFP method?  Thank you so much

[LydiaRobinvale]

Deleted I'll make a separate post about this