New To Spas - Water Chemistry Hurts My Brain!

[LydiaRobinvale]

Hey guys, so apologies ahead of time for the huge long post. My landlord recently purchased a large Master Spa, about 1600 gallons in size. I have never taken care of a spa before. I have done a ton of research but have had a lot of conflicting advice and generally it's been very frustrating. I honestly dont have a set routine yet because of this. He's tasked me with caring for the spa. It is a fiberglass shell and we dont have hard water. He is not fond of chemicals and actually believes that chemicals are not necessary at all, even sanitizer.. (in other words, he's kind of nutty). He feels the same about his 30,000 gallon pool and my room mate and I have been trying very hard to get that under control but that's a separate post altogether.. Anyway sine he doesn't like chemicals, he bought this spa because the dealer lied to him and told him between the UV light, Ozonator and the Eco Pure filter (which they actually neglected to even give us) he would not have to use ANY sanitizer or chemicals! They straight up lied to him, and he believed them.. Aside from the fact that that is complete baloney, he decided a Nature 2 mineral stick was the most he would do..

I have seen a lot in regards to the Nature 2 stick, a lot of conflicting information to be honest. I am using the mineral stick plus Leslies Fresh and Clear as an MPS. The folks at leslies told me I did not have to maintain a chlorine level with this stick, the MPS and my ozonator but most folks on the web seem to say that yes it is necessary. I am very confused about this. I wanted to post and see if anyone could help me with a reliable routine for this system. When do I use chlorine? Do I use the fresh and clear after every soak? How much? When and what do I use for shock? Should I always maintain a free chlorine level? How can I maintain my Ph with using MPS (it makes it lower and I have to use Ph Up)? Should I throw some 20 mule team borax in there, and how much?

I dont really want to use bleach. I also have included some photos of a couple of concerns I have (explained below). Our Calcium hardness is down a little but I ave some hardener I am getting in the mail tomorrow to raise it. The Cya is very low but the folks at leslies said it wasnt that important for a spa.. I have Dichlor that I can use for maintaining the FC level.. I wasnt too concerned about the CYA level going up with that since we plan on draining and filling after 4 months. What products should I use after a fill? I had metal protect and scale defense when we first filled this spa. The problem is when we first had it going, it was a beautiful crystal clear aqua blue tint. Normal for what I could tell. After we added the mineral stick and started using MPS, it is now a clear aqua green. Should I be concerned? Also the second photo shows an odd yellowish/brown film sitting on the outside of the object pictured (which I'm not even sure what it is). You can just see it in the photo but it's a lot easier to see in real life. Talk of spa components breaking down scares me into thinking thats what this is..

I dont know. This whole spa chemistry thing honestly makes my head spin. The thing is, I have done so much research and I feel I haven't even learned anything. When I think about it my head hurts! I just want this spa to stay nice. The landlord is insane but I am doing my best despite the circumstances. He also is paying me to do this and the pool, so I want to do it right. Plus its nice to know its safe to use when I go in! Despite not really believing in chemicals he has allowed me to purchase the chemicals and we have plenty I just am not quite sure what to do with them. Any help is greatly appreciated!

[MPurcell]

I have no experience or expertise with the products you are using.

I will express my personal opinion. Assuming the accuracy of your information, your landlord is exposing others to possible harm, and himself to potential litigation. I am not a lawyer so I can't say what your liability might be, but as an employee you would surely have some level of responsibility as well.

My recommendation is to decide on a method that is known to work and demand your employer allow you to implement it, or if not to resign. Whichever method you decide on needs to include the correct use of one of the three approved sanitizers, chlorine, bromine or biguanide.

In your research, you will find that the information on this forum and on the Trouble Free Pool forum is much more useful than other sources. You can get a lot of misleading and just plain wrong information from employees of various pool stores and corresponding online sources.

 

[LydiaRobinvale]

Yeah i know. Thats essentially the only reason he's letting me do this. And thats exactly how we had to put it to him was that if one of the tena ts gets sick, he is liable. Hes still stuck on the nature 2 stick though so i have to try to make sense of how to use that.

As i mentioned i am using a nature 2 stick with mps. I have been made aware that i must have at least .5ppm of chlorine in there at all times.. And the instructions say to superchlorinate "as needed". What i need to know is when exactly to add chlorine, and how much, to maintain that level and when to superchlorinate. And what is the difference between using the mps and the chlorine? I have an ozone generator so that is what is recommended with the nature 2 in addition to the mps. 

I also dont know how to tell how much mps i have when chlorine gives me a false high reading on the nature 2 test strips. If i need a small amount of chlorine thats fine, i am just confused on when to "shock" and what exactly to use when shocking. Especially since the mps is also called non chlorinated shock. The bottle says to add it after every use, too.

My landlord never bathes so when he uses the spa it gets pretty gross. Last week i took a samole in and the phosphates were high. They recommended i use spa perfect so i am doing that but i wasnt sure if it was safe to use right before or after the mps. It says not to use it right after shocking but i am not sure if throwing the mps in there qualifies as that... I guess i will do some more looking around on the forum althoufh i tried to search and didnt find my questions answered.

 

 

 

[arobbert]

You will have constant trouble with that system. When your water gets cloudy you will have to shock with lots of chlorine. I stopped using mineral sticks and MPS for that reason. I now use a low chlorine approach and never have problems. MPS is an oxidizer not a sanitizer like chlorine. Chlorine and bleach are the same thing BTW. If a lot of people are using the SPA you really need to be on top of it and are asking for trouble if you're not diligent. Public spas have different requirements than a home spa with one or two users. More users means more sanitizer will be needed. I recommend the Dichlor/bleach Method pinned to the top of the forum. Once you get it dialed in it's pretty easy.

[LydiaRobinvale]

Youre right. But we slent a lot of money getting a big ol tub of mps. I will stay on top of it for now until we use it up and then make the switch. He wont know. I will just tell him the stick is in there lol

Whats the deal with borates and should i have some?

[arobbert]

I bought a bunch of MPS as well and still have it. You can use it post soak a table spoon at a time until it's gone. It will reduce the amount of chlorine needed. BTW if you don't have a have drop test kit you should get one. The strips are useless especially if your trying to go low chlorine. Strips don't measure low levels very well.

I wouldn't worry about the borates. Get your sanitation process straight first (it will take at least a couple of months).

[arobbert]

I would recommend using a little chlorine/bleach on a daily basis. At least enough to maintain 1 to 2 ppm. If your going this low with the chlorine you will need to test every day. This is what I do and I don't have any problems.  

This tool is very useful. It will tell you how much chlorine and other chemicals to add:

http://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html

[danthespaman316]

Mineral sanitizers aren't made for that size of spa. The sheet that come with those things will state that they're for tubs up to around 400-500 gallons. Even then, you'd need to know the number of bodies in it on a given day to be able to add the proper amount of Oxi to activate the sanitizer. If you need/want to drop some knowledge on the landlord, show him that sheet.

As everyone else has already stated, chlorine is the only way to go for that tub. Especially when you consider that you have no control/knowledge of the amount that people who use it or what kind of crap they might be bringing into the water with them (lotions, hair products, etc.) 

Good luck to you.

[LydiaRobinvale]

Thanks for the info. I feel its too late now as i opened the spa today, had 3ppm day before yesterday of chlorine and no one got in it.. Today none and the water is greener with a very odd smell to it. Not sure what to do now. Just put a bunch of chlorine in but i reallydont know how much to put in to get to shock level as everyone i ask has a different opinion or their values are for very small spas. 

I dont think the water is cloudy, just has a weird smell and is greener than before. I feel like there is algae because the tub feels slightly slimy but i just put algicide in a few days ago. Man i really hate this  

 

[MPurcell]

See if the pool calculator will help you with quantities. Put your number of gallons in at the top row, then use the section at the bottom for "Effects of adding chemicals". For example with 1600 gallons adding 25 ounces of 8.25% bleach will raise free chlorine by 10 ppm and salt by 17 ppm.

Algicide is a (sometimes somewhat effective) preventative, and not a treatment. The only treatment for an algae bloom is chlorine. You must raise the water to shock level and maintain that level until the algae is all gone. For this, you need a good test kit which includes the FAS-DPD drop titration test for free chlorine. Shock level for chlorine if there is *no* CYA in the water is 10 ppm. If there is CYA, then shock level is higher.

 

[LydiaRobinvale]

I have a test kit on the way, the lamotte colorq pro 7. It will be here next week. I shocked last njght with 5 ounces of dichlor. I tried the pool calculator but haven't got the hang of it yet. The landlord is gone until tuesday and its too hot out for anyone to use the spa so this is my chance to shock. My cya level right now as of a couple days ago is 20. How do i adjust for cya?

[arobbert]

To use the calc:

1.Enter the number of Gal. of the spa at the top.

2. Set suggested goal levels at the bottom to troblefreepool.

3. Enter your CYA level. This will affect the suggested chlorine level.

4. Look at the suggested FC levels directly above the suggested goal levels. It will tell you the daily target and most importantly for now the shock amount. Add the recommended shock amount.

5. Test the chlorine level at least  twice a day. You will go through more chlorine initially as it eats the contaminates. It's really important to maintain the shock level until the water clears.

There are good instruction for shocking at this link:

https://www.troublefreepool.com/content/125-slam-shock-level-and-maintain-shockingl

After you're done use the recommended amount of chlorine. You can use the lower numbers if you check and maintain the chlorine level once or twice a day. The amount of chlorine needed will depend on how often the spa is used and by how many people use it.

[MPurcell]

See the Chlorine/CYA Chart. A CYA level of at least 30 is recommended, and usually nothing over 40 for a hot tub. As per the chart, CYA of 20 is too low. At CYA of 30, minimum chlorine is 2 ppm and target is 4-6 ppm. For shock, you will need 12 ppm at 30 ppm CYA. The minimum is just that. It means never ever let the chlorine fall below 2 ppm.

According to the pool calculator, in 1600 gallons of water, adding 5 oz of dichlor will raise FC by 13 ppm, raise CYA by 12 ppm, lower pH by 0.49 and raise salt by 11 ppm.

[LydiaRobinvale]

Thank you guys for all your help. I am completely new to spas so this has been hard for me. I feel like i am too late on the calcium hardness though. Pump 2 has started to make an awfully loud noise after running for about a minute. We have only had this spa a month but the calcium hardness was 50 or 60. I hope its not damaged. I tried to take a video of noise but the spa water was also loud so its hard to hear. Maybe tomorrow i will take the back panel off and look. I have already contacted master spas about this and will hopefullt hear back tomorrow. 

I added 10 Tbs of spa calcium hardener today as per the instructions for raising the ch 50ppm. I will measure again by taking a sample to leslies this week maybe wednesday and then adjusting again as needed. Maybe theres just air in there i dont know but it sounds terrible

One more thing.. What should I use when the CYA is high enough? Not dichlor anymore... I have been advised not to use bleach because of the size of the tub and because it is fiberglass. Can I use liquid chlorine? How much of that equals 1tbsp of dichlor? What about trichlor?

[MPurcell]

Low calcium hardness would not cause a pump to fail. Other water chemistry factors such as pH out of range could affect the equipment, but I'd say that after one month, the pump failing would 99.9% be due to equipment failure. (Not saying your pump has failed. Just giving general information.)

Dichlor and trichlor both contain CYA, so you do not use them once the CYA level is where you want it.

Use bleach! Whoever advised you not to use bleach because of the size of the tub is just plain wrong. Bleach and liquid chlorine are the exact same thing, basically sodium hypochlorite. Do NOT use splashless bleach or scented bleach because they have additives that you do not want to put into your spa. Bleach is typically 8.25% and liquid chlorine from a pool store is typically 12%, but otherwise they are functionally the same.

You really need to learn to use the pool calculator tool. It's a fantastic tool because otherwise you would be doing math on a sheet of paper yourself. The pool calculator will tell you exactly how much to add.

[LydiaRobinvale]

Yeah i am not sure about the folks at leslies now. I mean there is one guy there who seems to know a lot more than the rest so i guess I'll try to talk to him when i go there. Hopefully rhe test kit arrives in the next couple of days.

I will go on the pool calculator today and play with it. Thanks again for your help

[MPurcell]

Remember, Leslies and all pool stores make money by selling you things. If you manage your water by the BBB method or TFP method, they don't make any money. Besides many employees being put on the floor with little to no training, the ones who are knowledgeable and experienced also are subject to their company and industry culture. The advice you will get at the pool store and at their web sites is certainly questionable, and many times outright wrong, misleading, and unhelpful.

Here's an example. Leslie's Alkalinity Up 5 lb tub, $14.99, Arm and Hammer baking soda 4 lb box, $2.24 at Walmart. So, expect to hear the pool store employee tell you that you can't use baking soda in your pool or tub. The ingredient in each product is... 100% sodium bicarbonate.

[LydiaRobinvale]

Wow yeah i understand selling stuff. I did just get back from there and had both pool and spa water tested. Somehow my total dissolves solids on the spa in 4 days with NO ONE using it launched up from 300 to 800... What the heck? And thr phosphates went from 200 to 500. Again, no one used the spa between these two tests and they were performed by the same guy.

Im ok with the total dissolved solids as we will be drsining the spa in a couple months anyway and filling up again. But the pool is at 5000. The landlord refuses to drain the pool and doesnt believe in chemicals. We have been trying to get the alkalinity down from 250 and it was going down slowly but shot up in a week to 300. I give up on the pool. Im just dealing with the spa now the pool can rot for all i care. 

The spa is good on all other fronts now except the shock i did did not raise the cya at ALL. It is still at 20. So i dont know about that. Free and total chlorine is both at 3.  Ph is 7.6 and alkalinity is 80. Calcium hardness is only 75 after putting in 10 tbs of spa ch. So i will put more in tonight. Its due for some algicide maintenance dose as well.

[MPurcell]

You'll be so happy when your test kit arrives. Pool store testing is notoriously inaccurate. The results you give above, in my opinion, can only be explained by testing inconsistency, since nothing substantial changed in the actual water. This is why you must test yourself with a good reliable test kit in order to get good results in the long run. I don't think you can believe any of the results you have gotten from them, including the dissolved solids results.

[LydiaRobinvale]

I think I was wrong about the tester, I think it was a different guy the last time I had the spa water tested and that guy was dumber than a rock lol.. Not surprised really. I am calling master spas directly tomorrow about the pump. It takes a few minutes of pump #2 running for it to get really loud. The spa is still well under warranty and they need to bring us an eco pur anyway. 

I dont think the lamotte does TDS though. Is there a separate kit for that?

[MPurcell]

There is really no viable test for total dissolved solids. There are test strips, but I don't have any information on their accuracy. In general, test strips have proven to be pretty inaccurate. And you are not the only one who has reported extreme differences in TDS test results at the pool store, or in some cases multiple pool stores, with the same sample water. The only way to get an accurate reading of total dissolved solids is in the lab. You would use a measured amount of water, evaporate all of the water, and then weigh the residue with an accurate lab scale. You really don't need to test for dissolved solids though. If you plan to change the water out every two or three months, which you probably should do with a public spa, then dissolved solids will never get too high, unless you are putting stuff in the water that you don't need.

[arobbert]

I have an electronic tester for TDS. They make them to test reverse osmosis drinking water machines. The numbers do go up as the water gets older. I haven't found it to be very useful information. I wouldn't worry about TDS. It's probably one of the least important tests. What you really need to know is what your combined chloramine (CC) level is. This will tell you if you have contaminates in your water that aren't being cleared by your current process. You will use that test to determine when your done shocking or if you need to. If that number is up and you can't get it to acceptable levels then you will need to change the water. Chloramines are what make a pool smell like chlorine and are caused by bather waste and other disgusting things. Does your test kit include this test? It is the single most important test. The strips don't work for this.

[LydiaRobinvale]

It does free chlorine and total chloring. Cant i just subtract FC from TC?

[arobbert]

Yes that will work.

[LydiaRobinvale]

Ok cool.

Its not really a "public spa". Myself and my room mate use it, as does our new neighbor alexis and the landlord. Often its just the landlord or its 3 or 4 of us. I do think (when its not too hot as it has been the last 2 weeks) we qualify as "heavy usage". Then there is the added complication of the labdlord never bathing which quite frankly is disgusting but unfortunately we have to deal with it. The spa phos-free came today so i can work on getting the phosphates down. I think with the help of this forum and the pool calculator, which i am slowly getting the hang of, i almost have this down lol