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Had a chance to look at this and here are the results. I turned off the breaker for 10 minutes or so and after turning back on (with the pump plugged into the 4 pin connector and the topside plugged in as usual), the pump starts, along with a clean and proper LED display on topside.  Everything great. After 10 seconds or so, the pump and LED topside shuts down. 

Then I do what you suggested....turn off breaker, unplug the pump 4 pin connector, insert multimeter leads into the red/white on the board and turn on the breaker. No voltage across either the red/white or the black/white. Topside still reads fine. After the typical 4 minute programming cycle, I hear a relay click (but obviously no pump turns on because its unplugged). Then the "DR" symbol flashes on topside which means poor flow or air or inadequate water (I think this is on because it is sensing the pump is not running).

Then I repeat the process with the topside unplugged. Same exact results...even the relay clicking after a few minutes, but no voltage at the 4 pin.

In each of these tests, there has been no voltage coming into the tub at the main connection on the circuit board. Should voltage be registered even if pump is not running?

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>>>>>  Then I do what you suggested....turn off breaker, unplug the pump 4 pin connector, insert multimeter leads into the red/white on the board and turn on the breaker. No voltage across either the red/white or the black/white. Topside still reads fine. After the typical 4 minute programming cycle, I hear a relay click (but obviously no pump turns on because its unplugged). Then the "DR" symbol flashes on topside which means poor flow or air or inadequate water (I think this is on because it is sensing the pump is not running).

 

Maybe I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say.  Sorry.  I'm just trying to find out if the pump has a problem.

You put the multimeter leads into the circuit board connector where the pump harness goes, not the pump cable itself.  The circuit board connector is probably set up so the red wire goes into the top hole, then the black, white and finally the green in the bottom.  You put your voltmeter to measure from red to white.

When the tub tries to turn the pump on, you should see 230VAC across red and white, which is the low speed.  What you want to learn is:

1)  Does the spa send voltage to the pump connector, and

2)  Does the voltage continue for more than 10 seconds.

If the voltage remains after 10 seconds, than the circuit board is probably sending power and the pump is shutting itself down, leading me to suspect a pump problem.  If the circuit board shuts off the power after 10 seconds, than the problem is probably not the pump.

The DR message is normal for not having your pump connected, it's the circuit board telling you it won't turn the heater on because there's no water in the heater can.

>>>>>> Then I repeat the process with the topside unplugged. Same exact results...even the relay clicking after a few minutes, but no voltage at the 4 pin.

Try what I just described with the topside unplugged.  All we want to do is see if the pump issue is related to the topside.  You probably need a new topside anyhow, but I'm just trying to determine if the topside is sending erratic messages to the circuit board to turn the pump off.

>>>>>  In each of these tests, there has been no voltage coming into the tub at the main connection on the circuit board. Should voltage be registered even if pump is not running?

I'm a little unclear what you're saying.  If there's no electricity coming into the tub at the main connection, then the tub won't operate.  Are you talking about the 3 (or 4) position terminal block that your wiring from your house connects to?

Dave

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Hi Dave, thanks. Sorry about the confusion about no power coming in....I had my multimeter on the wrong scale.

I get 240 volts showing from the board at the 4 pin connector (pump unplugged) with or without the topside plugged in..... it doesn't make a difference. The voltage remains after 30 seconds.  When the topside is plugged in, LED reads correctly...no broken symbols...not dim or blinking.

As an experiment I unplugged the topside and turned on the breaker and just like before, the pump starts, runs for 30 seconds...jets/bubbles, etc, and then something clicks on the circuit board and shuts off the pump (though still have power...no breaker was tripped). What do you think? Is it sounding like the pump? Would an obstruction cause this? A clogged filter (which I have about 3 years on this one)?

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Making progress! As another experiment, I took out the cartridge filter as I mentioned because it's old and maybe just too dirty (on my brothers spa, a different make, his tub will not operate if the filter is old). Guess what? It is running fine now for 30 minutes...heater is on, LED is fine!

Then I turned the jets to high and the pump shut off (but did not trip the breaker). I hear a low "exhale" of air in the heater and "HL" appeared on the LED meaning "a significant difference in temperature sensors has been detected, possible priming or flow problem". Pump came back on in about 30 seconds after I hit the pump button again and running fine on low.

Then I did the same thing again...hit pump to high and it shuts off. This time I hear the same "exhale" of air in the heater tube and the LED readout is "SN" meaning "sensors are temporarily out of balance".

What do you think? This is crazy, but could it be as simple as needing to replace my filter and repriming? It still does not explain the bizarre readout of the LED display when it was flashing, dim with broken characters, but I'm not getting that anymore.

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You said the pump turns off within 10 seconds.  Then you said the voltage remains at the circuit board connector for the pump for 30 seconds.  That indicates a problem with the pump.

The spa runs fine when low speed is activated, but not if high speed is activated.  That sounds like the high speed circuit in the pump is bad.   I've seen similar problems before, where one of the two pump circuits goes bad.

The "exhale" from the heater is because the water stops moving and boils almost instantly.  The sensors take a second to measure and tell the heater to shut off. The HL and SN messages are both related to the sensors measuring differences in water temperature in the heater can.

The dirty filters will definitely restrict flow and are a common cause of flow error messages.  As far as the LED misbehaving from dirty filters, that's a first for me, but you have to go with what you're observing.

Do you have a second pump in your spa?  Typically, Jets 1 is double speed and Jets 2 is single speed.  Often, a two speed pump is used for Jets 2, but the spa manufacturer only uses the high speed circuit.  If that's the case in your hot tub, you can swap the pumps if they are the same amperage and if they will physically fit. 

Dave

 

 

 

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Thank you. I've gone through the process one more time. After 10 seconds or so, the pump shuts down. I then remove the 4 pin pump connector and have NO power going to the connector (but have power coming into the terminal block of the board). I think this is telling me there is something going on with the board, as you mentioned in your earlier post, yes?

I may also have an issue with the high speed pump circuit as you mentioned. The pump I have is a Executive 56 by Waterway. Just a single pump, not two.

I don't know why the spa will run normal at times (as I posted earlier with the filter out, on low speed) and other times shut down after 10 seconds...but I'm guessing a bad connection /solder ring crack somewhere on the circuit board that occasionally works, then not. With this in mind...the circuit board will probably have to go out for repair or replacement...what do you recommend? As far as the pump goes, can the high speed circuit be replaced or will I need to replace the whole pump? I'm actually fine with low speed if it means I don't have to replace the pump. Thanks again, I feel pretty good about the troubleshooting and all of your help.

Bob

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Okay, just to be clear: on the pump connector on the circuit board (It's labeled J23, between two relay's labeled K1 and K6).  The top "hole" in the connector matches up with the red wire in the pump harness and the second wire lines up with the black wire.

Putting your meter leads in the top hole (red wire) and the third hole down (white wire) you are checking the voltage being sent to the low speed circuit on the pump.  Putting your meter leads in the second hole and the third hole you are checking the voltage being sent to the high speed pump circuit.

A pump has a thermal overload switch; it shuts off the pump if it gets too hot.  Probably there is a flaw in the high speed circuit that's overheating the wiring and causing the thermal overload to cut off the pump.

Now, going back to your last post:  After 10 seconds or so, the pump shuts down. I then remove the 4 pin pump connector and have NO power going to the connector.  That makes sense because the spa is overheating so the circuit board shuts it off.  You still have power going to the main terminal block because it's connected to your house.

I'm not convinced you have a circuit board issue.  I would connect the pump directly to a 115Volt  outlet to test it.  You already know the low speed works properly because you said it was running for 30 minutes.  Connect an A/C outlet directly to the pump.  You'll have to make up a cable to do that.  I'd use an old computer power cable, because they are generally plentiful and of a fairly heavy gauge.  Most 230VAC pumps I've plugged into wall outlets will run, I just wouldn't do it for any extended period of time.  You just want to see if the high speed circuit is capable of running longer than 10 seconds.

A Waterway Executive 56 is a common pump.  Match the amperage on the label to whatever you buy, you can't trust the horsepower number they give you. 

Dave

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Thanks. Yes, my test leads were in the correct holes, as you described above. Makes sense about the pump overload switch and the resultant circuit board shutting power off to the pump. Wow...a lot going on with this stuff. I'm an amateur and not sure I can do the pump wiring to a 110 outlet trick. Would I have to cut the pump pigtail off and then splice the pump wires to the computer cable wiring with a 3 prong plug on the end? Then plug into a 110 outlet to see if it runs without the pump thermal overload shutting it down? If it is just that, I may be able to give it a try.

If the pump is bad, swapping it out looks messy...not sure I can do it. May have to have a Freeflow tech do that for me....if they do that kind of thing? Even though it's a 12 year old spa, I'm not ready to throw in the towel as I just bought a new cover for it 2 months ago!

It's still a bit of a mystery as to why this all started happening a month ago. When I tried to run the pump on high, it would trip the breaker. So I unplugged the ozonator, (I was making an assumption that I was drawing too many amps) and it fixed it.... for a couple weeks anyway . I was able to run the pump on low and high as long as the ozonator was unplugged. Then after a couple weeks of non-use, I go out to use it and see the strange LED display, with no pump working, which is when I started this thread. I'm no longer tripping breakers, just the pump shutting off as we've been diagnosing. Crazy stuff.

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If you open the access door on the back of the pump motor, you'll see the terminals that the pump wiring harness connects to.  Take a picture so you can replace the wires properly, and put your test cable in there.  No need to cut and splice anything. 

You can also connect your test cable to the pump wiring harness AMP connector, you'll just need a female AMP connector to connect to your test cable.  

Whatever you do, turn off the power first, go slow, double check your connections and be safe.

If you're not comfortable swapping out the pump, I'm sure a Freeflow tech would be happy to do that for you.  It's a regular breakdown item on a hot tub.  A good tech will probably be able to figure out how the whole problem began.  I'm just answering your questions based on what you're reporting.  If I were working on your tub, I might have noticed something that you didn't even mention and figure out the issue in ten minutes.

Dave

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Thanks. O.K...makes more sense not cutting and splicing the connector....and easier. I'm going to look for a female 4pin AMP connector...maybe Radio Shack? and give that a try. Accessing the backside of the pump/access plate on my spa is difficult.

So once I'm ready to go, I plug in the pump to a wall outlet. I'm assuming the tub does not need to be powered up at that point? And I'm just checking that the pump will run longer than 10 seconds? Or if it's bad, will shut off.

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Thank you. I was explaining the symptoms to my brother who had a similar problem on his spa and his pump has an external thermal overload switch (rather than inside the pump) which ended up being the culprit...I think he has a CalSpa. It was a cheap part that was fairly easy to replace. Do you know if my Waterways pump has an internal switch, or could it be behind the access cover allowing me to test it and or replace it? In doing the pump test you described above, will that help me diagnose the switch? Or is that the first of several tests.

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Waterway does have a thermal overload.  I don't know how you'd find it or replace it, although all the electronics are in the back of the motor.

If the pump craps out after ten seconds, It would tell me the pump has a problem.  Maybe give it a minute, since you're testing it at 115volts instead of 230.  If the pump runs fine, I would look to the circuit board to be the issue.  That would be supported by checking if the circuit board continues to provide voltage or cuts it off after 10 seconds.

 

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O.K. I just looked at some youtube videos and they show where the switch is inside the pump. From my earlier testing, I remember getting voltage on the board where the pump pigtail plugs in after the pump craps out in 10 seconds, which I think is telling me the board seems to be doing its job. So for now it appears to be the pump, or pump switch, and I should be able to do your test, and research how to test the overload switch. Thanks so much Dave, I'll let you know how things play out....I won't be able to do the tests for a couple weeks (surgery) but actually look forward to doing the tests and getting to the bottom of it. I'm a sucker for this stuff....I just replaced the $6.00 copper contacts in my car's starter instead of the whole $200 starter and solved it!

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