dim and broken letters on touchpad

[freeflow]

Hello. Recently I have noticed my 10 year old Freeflow spa having an issue with the touchpad and operation. The readout on the touchpad is dim and broken/partial letters...nothing works, no light, no pumps. I researched a bit and saw a post that said the spa needs to reset itself by turning off the breaker for one hour, then turning back on. Sure enough, it worked and ran fine. 2 days later I now have the same problem. Does anyone know why this is happening? Thanks. By the way, I recently replaced a bad contactor in the breaker box (240 volt) 2 months ago with no issues...don't know if that could have anything to do with it.

[Jersey Hot Tub Repair]

It could be that water has gotten into the topside; what is it's physical condition?  Is the top overlay peeling up at the edges?  Have the buttons gotten squishy with age?  Does moisture squeeze out of the sides when you press a button?

Powering down and letting it sit for an hour might allow some of the moisture that's gotten into the topside to evaporate, although that sounds like a stretch to me.  Is it possible that moisture is getting through the mounting hole for the topside, trickling down the wire and into the control box?

I'm not sure how replacing a 230VAC contactor in your breaker box would affect the hot tub.  (I never even seen a contactor in a breaker box, and in some states it's not allowed).  Do you mean you changed the breaker?  Also, Freeflow tubs is a plug-in 110 Volts, right?  So it shouldn't be on a 230V breaker.  Does whatever that 230V contactor controls, work properly?

A topside panel in a modern hot tub with electronic controls runs off of 12volts, which is supplied by a transformer in the hot tub control box.  You could check the voltage on the transformer to make sure it's correct, just to eliminate that as a problem.  Honestly though, I've seen a lot more topsides go bad than transformers.

 

[Freeflow Official]

I agree with ScubaDave, it's highly probable your topside control panel is failing and causing the issues you've described. Since you've converted your spa to operate with 230V you should also reconfirm your voltage arriving to the spa at the terminal block to either confirm or rule out any power issues.

[freeflow]

Thanks for your replies. I bought the spa new (2005) and it is a 220 volt spa (I did not convert it). The contactor is in a Connecticut Electric box (also 2005), and they don't use them anymore in the newer boxes.I did the contactor replacement several months ago and don't think that is the problem. I was fortunate enough to find a couple on Ebay. I do have full 220 volts going into the spa circuit board.

The topside panel was removed a year and a half ago and is probably not sealing well. (I sent it out for a diagnosis when I had circuit board issues).The decal has long since disappeared. I hope that is the problem as that is probably easier to replace and would save me more troubleshooting. As of now, I'm only getting a couple dashes showing with no buttons working. Can you point me in the right direction of where to buy a new topside touchpad? It is the Solstice model. Thank you...and before I buy anything, I will look at the touchpad wiring and any possible leak areas.

[Jersey Hot Tub Repair]

Do you have broken digits or 3 dashes?  Are they solid or flashing?  Depending upon your control circuits, 3 dashes could be a FLO error or it could be a watchdog error.  Sorry, I'm not familiar with Freeflow Spas so I'm not sure who makes their guts.  I believe it's a Watkins Mftring company spa brand? 

Do you see the words "Balboa," "Gecko," or "IQ2020" on your spa's electronic pac?

If it's 3 flashing dashes in a Gecko pac is a Flo error condition, usually caused by a bad circulation pump.  3 Solid dashes is a hi limit condition, and the spa disables the control panel until you reset the circuit breaker.

 

[freeflow]

Hi Dave....Not flashing and they are not digits or dashes...just "pieces" of the LCD readout, like it is shorted out or something. A can barely see a glow of some stray red lines. I'll have to look at my pics to see the control pack and get back to you.

[Jersey Hot Tub Repair]

If it's just pieces of LCD readout, it's probably a bad topside.

You're going to have to get a spaside specifically made for your controller.  If you remove the old topside, you may see a part number underneath it.  Also, the circuit board is a clue to what you need.  Make note of the number of buttons, although many topsides have extra buttons that are not used and are hidden by the overlay.  (For instance, an 8 button topside might be used on a 5 button control panel, with three of the buttons hidden and not activated)

[freeflow]

Thanks Jersey. Once I get a part #, do you where I can order one?

[Jersey Hot Tub Repair]

Try googling the part number.  Don't order it on-line.  Call the vendor so they can make sure they send you the correct part, and will take it back if it's the wrong part.  Topsides are referenced by the number of buttons, the manufacturer of the hot tub, the manufacturer of the control pack and the type of connector that goes into the circuit board.

[freeflow]

Thank you, will do.

[Freeflow Official]

Please call our Freeflow customer service department for a referral to an authorized parts or service dealer in your area. (88809761-7727 ext. 8440

[freeflow]

I opened things up and visually the topside LCD touchpad and connections look good. After shutting off the breaker, then turning the breaker back on, the tub LCD looks fine (not all broken up like before) and begins the programming. After the typical 2 minutes, the pump starts for about 10 seconds and then immediately shuts off and no topside LCD readout. I heard a relay click twice on the circuit board when it shut down. The breaker does not trip and I still have full voltage going to the board. Does this still sound like the topside touchpad? Thanks...you are helping me with this diagnosis and still prepared to buy a topside touchpad if this still could be the culprit.

[Jersey Hot Tub Repair]

Looking back several messages, you said you see "stray red lines."  You also said your LCD wasn't working.  Just to point out, LCD is black letters on a gray background.  LED is red letters on a black background.  LED is very difficult to read in sunlight.  So you may have two issues - a dying LED topside, and a second issue preventing the pump from coming on.  I would put a thick towel over my head and topside when reading the LED's, just to see if the daylight is washing out the digits.  There may be an error message that's just very difficult to read.

When the pump starts, do you see water moving, or is it just humming?  Can you check the voltage at the pump connectors?  Carefully, check the voltage between black & white, and the voltage between red & white.  Check that with the pump on and with the pump off.  (Red is probably low speed but when people start moving wires around, you never know what you're going to find).  You've already said the tub is receiving 230V.  Now we're trying to see if it's sending it to the pump.  If the wires show 230V and the pump isn't on, I would look to the pump as having issues.

From what you describe on the the clicking replay's after the pump shuts down, it could be the heater relay is trying to turn on, but then senses water moving so it quickly shuts off. 

 

 

 

[freeflow]

Thanks for the correction...it is an LED display and is back to what it was: broken, kind of random flashing, random lines. When the pump came on, yes water was moving. My voltage check was to the circuit board. I can check voltage to the pump itself later today. I think I can only check it with the pump not running because I can't get it to run (although, if I turn off the breaker and let it sit it may turn on for a very short time.

[Jersey Hot Tub Repair]

If you read voltage going to the pump but the pump's not running, that indicates a pump issue.  You can also test the pump by plugging it directly into a wall outlet.  Most 230VAC pumps will turn on if fed with 115Volts.

The only reason I'm thinking "pump" is because you say it turns off.  Pumps have circuitry that shut it down if it overheats.  If the thermal overload switch kicks in because of a motor issue, the pump will turn off.

I haven't seen pump problems affecting the topside display.

I've seen topsides that were bad and I've seen topsides that were good, but I've never seen topsides that fluctuate back and forth.  However, the topside is fed 12VDC from a transformer, did you check the voltage at the transformer?  You probably have either 115 or 230 going in, and 12V coming out.  I have seen transformers go bad, so it's worth a check.  The transformer also provides the low voltage that controls the relay's, so a bad transformer could lead to multiple issues.

If the pump is good and the transformer is good, I would start thinking about the circuit board.  We already know the topside can give good displays, so in light of the symptoms you've described, I'd be skeptical of it being your issue.  Of course, a new topside is cheaper and a lot easier to install than a new circuit board,

The fact that the spa turns on and the topside works for the first 2 minutes, than craps out, makes me wonder what happens to the voltage coming from the circuit board after the first 2 minutes.  I'd check that and try to find a logical pattern.  What is the voltage going to the pump over the time it works and when it shuts down.  And what's the voltage coming from the transformer? 

[freeflow]

Hi Jersey. Thanks. As is stands now, there is no readout on the LED, whereas before it was dim, blinking erratically and a broken gobbledegook of lines. I'm leaning to just starting with replacing the LED touchpad since it is easy for me to do...and mine is missing the logo anyway. Yesterday it did indeed turn on after being off overnight, with full readout of the LED, but as I mentioned, quickly shut off to the state I I have now which is no readout. BTW, where is the topside transformer as that is a good suggestion. The pigtail from the topside plugs into a female connector on the Balboa circuit board...not sure where the transformer is.

[Jersey Hot Tub Repair]

In the newer style balboa packs (usually has a plastic box) The transformer is mounted in the lower center of the circuit board, to the right of the heater connection and the left of the dip switches.  In the older Balboa packs (aluminum box) it could be mounted inside the box, usually with a pair of self tapping sheet metal screws.

I didn't realize you had a balboa board.  The balboa board will run without a topside connected, it will default to 102 degrees.  Unplug the topside, turn on the spa, and see if the pumps come on normally.  If they don't, your pump problem is separate from your topside problem.

Dave

[freeflow]

Hi Dave...the Balboa box is aluminum, dated 01/06. I think I see the transformer...about 2" square held on with 2 small nuts, left of the dip switches. Anyway, I disconnected the topside and turned the breaker back on and still nothing...but I do have full voltage going into the circuit board. It will be hard for me to check voltage going to the pump itself as the wires are on the backside of it...and behind a small access panel on the pump housing. Removing that may be difficult and I'de have to use a mirror to get my leads in there. I appreciate your thoughts and troubleshooting!

[Jersey Hot Tub Repair]

The older style Balboa boxes have a transformer that's not mounted to the board so it's easy to check the voltage.  It doesn't sound like you have that.

You don't have to check the pump voltage at the pump, check it at the circuit board or at the external connectors if that's what your pac has.

If the tub will not go into it's default mode with the topside disconnected, I'm going to guess you have a circuit board issue.

[freeflow]

Shoot that's what I'm afraid of. I've attached a pic of the board. I believe the pigtail of wires going to the pump are in the top middle. Is this where I should check for full voltage? And do I put the probes on the board or the pigtail side (disconnected obviously). Thanks.

[freeflow]

Sorry pic is upside down

[Jersey Hot Tub Repair]

What is the electrical tape on the wires for?  Electrical tape is not the correct way to splice high voltage wires, so I would check all my splices for make sure nothing's loose.

To test the pump voltage, push your meter's test leads into the 4 pin AMP connector that connects the pump cable to the circuit board.

[freeflow]

Thanks. The Freeflow dealer made the splice...I no longer work with him, he was a butcher.The splice is the ozonator that I have since disconnected because when the pump is turned to high, the ozonator would trip the breaker. It' s a 20 amp breaker in the subpanel and for some reason that ozonator would trip it...started doing that this last year. It seems these ozonators don't last long...this was my third.

 

I'll check the 4 pin connector...hopefully I should read full voltage? When checking do I keep the topside unplugged?

[Jersey Hot Tub Repair]

Here's what I'd do. Turn off the spa.  Plug in the topside.  Shove your test meter leads into the pump connector red & white wires.  Power up the spa.  You're looking to see the power jump to 220V when you hear the pump turn on.  You want to see what the voltage is when the pump shuts off.  If the voltage is still on but the pump turns off, your pump is having problems.  Check it at the black & white wires too, in case the pump is mis-wired.

Then, repeat the same test with the topside unplugged.

What we're trying to do is to see if the presence of the topside makes any difference to the voltage coming out of the pump connector.  That will help us determine if you have one problem (topside) or two problems (pump & topside or circuit board & topside).

 

[freeflow]

Awesome...sounds like a good diagnosis rather than throwing dollars at things blindly. I may have to wait a few days before I'm able to do the testing (leaving town) but I'll report back. Very much appreciated!