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First Hot Tub Purchase - Advise Please?


incognito

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(So I've searched this forum and the internet in general. I have a few questions that I'm having trouble getting answers to...)

Here's the deal. I'm a "buy once, cry once" type of buyer. I don't mind spending a little more money upfront for better quality, better features, and better service.

 

Here's my questions...

1. After-the-sale service, customer support, and warranty is paramount. It's damn near more important then the tub itself. So, which manufacturers/brands are leading the way here?

2. Ozone, Ultraviolet, Salt ... Seriously. I have no idea. Any insight here would be appreciated.

 

So far, the brands I've been looking at are Arctic Spas (Lots of bad reviews), Bullfrog, and Cal Spas.

Thanks in advance.

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Had a productive day today. I used my day off work to shop around and check out some spa's...

1. Arctic Spas - First impression, not that good. They all looked like they were 10 years old, very outdated looking. This company is lacking in looks and design. Very expensive, old technology control screens, no modern LED features and no attractive stereo options. Again, everything looked old.

2. Cal Spas - First impression, again not that good. The dealer looked like a fly-by-night operation. They only had 1 Cal Spa on the floor and it was 3 years old and beat to ****. Then the salesmen tried to sell me a Clearwater Spa, which I new nothing about. I left that place quick with bad vibes.

3. Sundance Spas - Not originally on my radar but I was driving by and thought what the hell. Very impressed. First impressions were very good, Sundance looked very modern, and appeared to be built extremely well. You can tell right away that these are very high-end, quality spas. The dealer was also fantastic, very helpful and trustworthy. The 980 and 880 spas have really nice features including a nice LED control panel, and an Ultraviolet water system.

4. Bullfrog Spas - First impression was just wow! Very modern styling, quality materials, and feature packed! I didn't get a look inside the maintenance panel but I trust it's guts are just as well built as the exterior. The A8 series had a beautiful LED control panel, premium LED lighting features, and a premium ozone water system. Obviously the biggest feature was the Jetpack system. I was also impressed with the dealer. A long time staple in my community.

So, I've narrowed it down to 2 choices. The Bullfrog A8 and the Sundance Optima. Here's my pro's and con's

Bullfrog A8

PRO's - Beautiful modern exterior design - Modern LED control display w/auxiliary control pad - Detailed premium LED lighting package - Stereo System is subtle and well designed - Jetpack System is a major selling feature - Minimal plumbing due to the Jetpack system - Simplified Maintenance by design - Cloud control system - Solid dealer and manufacturer support - Quality construction inside and out (No wood or metal) Did I mention the Jetpack system?

CON's - Price of course - honestly I got nothing else. This company and model checked all the boxes for me.

Sundance Optima

PRO's - Fairly nice exterior (not as nice as the A8 IMO) - Quality construction inside and out - Modern LED control display - Ultraviolet water system - High quality jets - Sunsmart Wifi technology - JBL Stereo is subtle and well designed - Solid dealer and manufacturer support

CON's - LED lighting is entry level and pretty lame, should be better for a high-end tub - No auxiliary control pad - Wood frame construction - No jetpack system 

Right now I'm leaning towards the Bullfrog A8. Seriously pro's and con's aside, the Jetpack system is hands down one of the biggest features I've ever seen... I mean being able to switch a jetpack on the fly is YUGE! For example, if my wife (who is short and petite) wants to try the neck massager jetpack, but this jetpack is currently located in a deep seated chair, I can just swap it over to her shallow seat in seconds! Brilliant! Not to mention being able to try other jetpacks down the road, you can basically keep evolving your hot tub as you see fit... Seems like a game changer to me.

Now I just gotta see if I can beat my sales guy up a bit on price...

 

 

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Not exactly sure what Arctic Spas you were looking at but sure do not understand your comments on how old looking they are. First of all they have the choice of the 2 nicest cabinets in the industry being their furniture grade cedar as their standard cabinet and then their matching no maintenance cabinet in choice of 2 colours. As far as their LED lighting packages they have three to choose from including their ultimate lighting package that lights up all their jets and topside controls, drink holders and corner lighting on their cabinets. Stereos they have three different options all of which are run through a bluetooth amp. They have wet tunes which are good sounding pop up speakers, Aqua tremor which uses transducers mounted to fibreglass shell making your actual spa the speaker, and then Aqua tremor deluxe which includes the pop up speakers and the transducers.

They are also the only company that all their jets give you a nice rotating massage not like most other companies that use mostly directional jets that after a while feel like someone poking you in the back.

Also they have the spa boy salt water system that takes the guess work out of water management by producing chlorine when needed and monitoring your ph at the same time.With this system also comes a wifi system that you can control your spa through the app or once spa registered on their network portal you can monitor your spa from anywhere in the world.

Independent studies have also proven Arctic to be the most energy efficient spa built and with the power management program they have with their system you can literally see on the network exactly how much your spa is costing you to run per day instead of here say salespeople tell you.

So I'm afraid your assessment of Arctic is totally inaccurate in your comments.

 

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Features aside, having a local dealer with a good reputation will be the most important feature.  We have some great Jacuzzi and Hotsprings dealers in our region, so those customers tend to be very happy.  

I've worked on quite a few Sundance spas and think they're well made - I only have one Bullfrog customer.  His circuit board went soon after his warranty expired, but Bullfrog gave him a generous discount on the new parts.  His electronics were Balboa, so the fact they died soon after the warranty ended is no reflection at all on Bullfrog.  Balboa guts are in 30 or 40% of the hot tubs out there.  My point, anyhow, is that Bullfrog stood behind their product.

I always recommend my customers to stay away from wifi apps and stereo systems.  Electronics will break down first and repairs are very expensive.  Pop up speakers will break as soon as the warranty runs out.  Bluetooth is a little more sensible than DVD/CD players, at least there are no moving parts.  A hot tub is, obviously, a hot, humid environment and not well suited to stereos.  Speakers mounted in the walls are definitely better than speakers mounted in the tub tub.  Top mounted speakers are like water funnels and no matter how many gaskets they put in or how tightly mounted, water seems to always get into the speakers.

I've seen a few spas with wifi issues related to firewalls on the homeowner's router.  I don't know  your situation but it's worth discussing with your dealer in advance.  I get that wifi is useful if you want to turn the heat up in the tub when you're on the way home from work, but the concept of updating your hot tub's software is silly.  I think it's a feature in search of a need, not the other way around.   Although I'm sure it will generate a lot of business for us in the future as iPhone auto-correct changes everyone's keystrokes and their hot tubs stop working :).

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Why is updating software on hot tub silly...then you might as well say updating software in computers is silly too.

As far as firewall issues in homeowners routers that is easily handled buy running a cat 5 cable directly from homeowners router to the spa pak itself and there has never been an issue that way unless customer is having issues with his home internet itself.

Everything else now a days is going wifi or cloud including customers home security, thermostat controls, new vehicles so why not your hot tub.

As far as stereos go Arctic offers a 3 year warranty on their Aqua Tremor sound system and have had no major issue with bluetooth amps. Companies still using marine stereos with cd's are the ones you want to stay away from as most issues with these systems are people putting wet cd's in players and then wonder why they breakdown.

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>>>  Why is updating software on hot tub silly...then you might as well say updating software in computers is silly too.

Just because a hot tub is controlled by microprocessors, doesn't mean it's a computer.  A hot tub is a single function product.  You're not going to install application software to allow it to do other functions.   My Keurig coffee maker has a computer and I don't update that software either.  My garage door opener is microprocessor controlled and has wifi so I can control it from afar, but I don't regularly update the garage door operating system.

A hot tub has a button for jets, lights and temperature.  What software updates are necessary to improve the functions of those buttons?  Or maybe I should ask, what features or benefits have homeowners been asking for that hot tub software updates are needed?  To me it sounds like a feature looking for a benefit.

>>>  As far as firewall issues in homeowners routers that is easily handled buy running a cat 5 cable directly from homeowners router to the spa pak itself and there has never been an issue that way unless customer is having issues with his home internet itself.

Everything else now a days is going wifi or cloud including customers home security, thermostat controls, new vehicles so why not your hot tub.

Actually, I believe I told the OP to "discuss with your dealer in advance."   If you are selling tubs and can guarantee that the homeowner will have no problem connecting to wifi, that's a good thing and I'd say "case closed."

As far as selling wifi and telling customers to use a cable, why bother with wifi if you need a cable?  Not only that, but what does Underwriting Laboratories  say about adding a cat5 cable between a 60 AMP 240 volt tub of water and the router in your home?  Is your local electrical inspector going to pass that one?  Do you need a GFCI on the cat5 cable?  It would be a shame if a hot tub wiring issue gave you a shock when you touch your television because it's also hard wired to your cable box which is hard wired to your router.  I'd be careful suggesting to people to run unprotected cables between their home and hot tubs.

>>>  As far as stereos go Arctic offers a 3 year warranty on their Aqua Tremor sound system and have had no major issue with bluetooth amps. Companies still using marine stereos with cd's are the ones you want to stay away from as most issues with these systems are people putting wet cd's in players and then wonder why they breakdown

As I said, bluetooth is less problem prone than disc based players.  3 years for electronics is much better than many of the other spa manufacturers offer.  I'm in the repair business, not the sales business, and I've seen a lot of older tubs with non-functioning stereos, hence my concerns that stereos are a common breakdown area.  I've seen many tubs with 10 year old motors still functioning fine, but not 10 year old stereos.

How does the Aqua Tremor compare in quality and cost to a good pair of outdoor speakers connected to the homeowners indoor stereo system?

 

 

 

 

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On 2017-02-22 at 10:34 AM, Foxy said:

 

So I'm afraid your assessment of Arctic is totally inaccurate in your comments.

 

Disagree. I am an unbiased buyer. I appreciate the sales pitch but you are obviously tied to Arctic somehow, so your opinion on the matter is bias.

I however went into an actual Arctic Spa store, and the above was my first impression, not fantasy, actual fact based on what I saw. First off, zero sales staff on-hand to answer any questions, and again all the tubs on their "sales" floor were old looking, old school wood cabinets, old school basic control displays, old school textured acrylic finishes, and all the models on-hand had basic jet packages. Then I was quoted ridiculous retail pricing. This is how Arctic chose to represent their brand in my area, not my fault. And this certainly doesn't make my comments inaccurate.

Again I'll reiterate. When compared to Bullfrog and Sundance, those Arctic spas looked 10 years old. Bullfrog and Sundance both had modern touch screen control displays, modern cabinet designs/materials, and modern acrylic finishes. Looks alone, you could tell these spas were 2017 models. Arctic looked like 2007. Just sayin'

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So I checked out hottubuniversity.com. I found the article “Salt Systems on Hot Tubs” very strange. My experience with a bromine salt generator has been excellent as described in my review post:

The author presents a ridiculous rant against all salt generator systems based solely on his reading of pages from an Onzen Arctic spa technical guide. He presents no personal salt generator experience. While speaking only about the Onzen salt chlorine system he implies that bromine salt generators work the same way. From personal experience I know this to be false. I just add 40$ worth of sodium bromine and nothing else until my next water change.

So this did not bother me too much because I thought I’d just present my experiences with a bromine generator system. I tried to post it 3 times but it was rejected for publication. Unusual a university where you are not permitted to present an alternative opinion. And the website’s moniker is “Unbiased Information For The Informed Consumer”. Ya right. This website is certainly biased and presents very misleading information.

Are salt chlorine generators & salt bromine generators really so similar one can lump them together like that? Should one not have some personal experience with a salt generator system before writing what pretends to be an informative article?

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  • 2 weeks later...

No idea as to when and what store you visited but your term looking old like back from 2010 is totally false and maybe you should check out their website as they also have the nicest no maintenance cabinets and their controls are by far the most advanced and being able to monitor your spa from anywhere in. the world that has internet is a feature nobody has.Also their spa boy salt system is by far the most advanced salt system that also monitors your ph for you.....so I am sorry you are sadly mistaken and clearly a Sundance and Bullfrog fan both of which are old technology still using foam filled spas technology being used not only for insulation but also mostly for structural support.

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With a Bromine salt generator you don't need to monitor ph closely.  I check once a week generally ... but sometimes when I'm on vacation I leave it for 3 weeks.  When I come back it's always the same.  Sort of boring.  The spa boy chlorine salt system sounds much more exciting !  To need to monitor it no matter where you are in the world must make one feel very special.  Alas, bromine levels are not as sensitive to ph as chlorine - so even if ph did fluctuate a bit, which it doesn't - no big deal.

I thought that foam filled spas & perimeter insulated spas were both old technologies?  There may be pros & cons to both ... but there's nothing innovative about spraying your insulation on the tub vs spraying it on the box that holds the tub.  This is not a new thing.

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On 2/28/2017 at 10:05 PM, spacurious said:

check out hottubuniversity.com and you will find an online buyers' guide to hottub purchase.  some brutal truths out there about what you get versus the sales hype.  really opened my eyes.

 

One thing I DON'T find is an 'about' section that tells me what brands the website author sells in his store.....

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