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Master Spa Lsx 1050 Vs Sundance Maxxius


HDK

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The varmints burrowing into the foam? Marketing.

Spoken like a man who has never had a field mouse infestation. <_<

I reported my experience in the thread "Critters" on May 23, 2006. It wouldn't take much to "market" a properly sealed, rodent-proof bottom to me or to anyone in my family. Been there, done that, bought the mousetraps.

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Okey dokey.

1) Master has a ripping warrenty, as the skirt is blown vinly. Think "Little tykes" play sets here. The sides are made this way not for improved quality, but for price reduction. It's not there in reference to wood panels, that's marketing again. It's there because Master has cheap blown vinyl sides that can tear. Yes Tear and rip.

Since this thread has high entertainment value for many on this forum, I'm going to take one more crack at it and call it a day:

What is blown vinyl? I don't know and Google thinks it's a textured wallpaper. Are you claiming Master skirts are textured wallpaper? If you knew anything at all about plastic thermoforming you'd know that about the only thing "blown" are plastic bags from polymer film and my mind from reading your posts. Now, I'm not claiming to be an expert either, but Master skirts are most likely a injection or roto molded polymer. I guess there's a way to blow mold something that thin and flat and that would be just fine in my book since all that dead air space should make the panels have great insulating properties. And if you knew anything about thermodynamics, you'd know most of the heat escapes the tub out of the top anyway, and not from all these elusive "gaps" I seemed to have missed noticing at all.

Since your needle also seems to be stuck on warranty weasle words, let's take a look at Sundance's warranty shall we? "All other spa components, including but not limited to the cabinet (both wood and synthetic)...are warranted against malfunction due to defects in workmanship and materials for two years from the date of purchase." Okay, just how does a plastic panel malfunction? Just what does that mean?! Does it have to crack in half and fall off the tub? I guess this lets Sundance off the hook for cosmetic defects, because a plastic panel can have a lot of cosmetic blemishes, and probably some cracks and RIPS, and still get the job done! I'm so confused!

Don't get me wrong here - for the amount of money I spent on a Master tub, if it is half as crappy as you think it is, my name will be the first one on the class action lawsuit. I'll run those bozos out of business, then I'll dig a hole in my backyard, throw in an aquarium pump, and jump in for a good long soak!

Good Night, Good Grief, and Good Soaking

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Ok, I am the original poster and have considered the responses. I keep hearing about Dimension one spas. What makes them better than the Sundance? My wife is will to give up the large sized if someone can convince her that they have the best filtration, to me, the filtration seems the same in most of the top brands. So agaoin why is Dimension supposed to better? If I wanted the best spa, is there one that is head and shoulders above the rest? Is there a top 3 for quality?

Thanks in advance.

HDK

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Ok, I am the original poster and have considered the responses. I keep hearing about Dimension one spas. What makes them better than the Sundance? My wife is will to give up the large sized if someone can convince her that they have the best filtration, to me, the filtration seems the same in most of the top brands. So agaoin why is Dimension supposed to better? If I wanted the best spa, is there one that is head and shoulders above the rest? Is there a top 3 for quality?

Thanks in advance.

HDK

You will never get a list of three as it is too subjective. I think most people in the know would have in their list, Hot Springs, Sundance, Marquis, D-1. Master dealers and owners will throw their hat into the ring as will Coleman, Caldera, and Jacuzzi and Arctic and I am sure there are others. I will tell you this after looking at a Master up close I think only those who have an affiliation with the brand would say that their fit and finish is on par with other upper end lines. As for warranty’s most are close, Marquis is when looked at in its total, is about the best for owners protection but most of the top lines are OK. Why does Marquis stand out? Basically there are no exclusions and it’s transferable. An example is a pump seal most have exclusion for them which opens the door not to cover other things should a pump seal fail, Marquis does not have this loop hole but again most top brands are close to each others.

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Since this thread has high entertainment value for many on this forum, I'm going to take one more crack at it and call it a day:

What is blown vinyl? I don't know and Google thinks it's a textured wallpaper. Are you claiming Master skirts are textured wallpaper? If you knew anything at all about plastic thermoforming you'd know that about the only thing "blown" are plastic bags from polymer film and my mind from reading your posts. Now, I'm not claiming to be an expert either, but Master skirts are most likely a injection or roto molded polymer. I guess there's a way to blow mold something that thin and flat and that would be just fine in my book since all that dead air space should make the panels have great insulating properties. And if you knew anything about thermodynamics, you'd know most of the heat escapes the tub out of the top anyway, and not from all these elusive "gaps" I seemed to have missed noticing at all.

Since your needle also seems to be stuck on warranty weasle words, let's take a look at Sundance's warranty shall we? "All other spa components, including but not limited to the cabinet (both wood and synthetic)...are warranted against malfunction due to defects in workmanship and materials for two years from the date of purchase." Okay, just how does a plastic panel malfunction? Just what does that mean?! Does it have to crack in half and fall off the tub? I guess this lets Sundance off the hook for cosmetic defects, because a plastic panel can have a lot of cosmetic blemishes, and probably some cracks and RIPS, and still get the job done! I'm so confused!

Don't get me wrong here - for the amount of money I spent on a Master tub, if it is half as crappy as you think it is, my name will be the first one on the class action lawsuit. I'll run those bozos out of business, then I'll dig a hole in my backyard, throw in an aquarium pump, and jump in for a good long soak!

Good Night, Good Grief, and Good Soaking

Wallpaper. yes! that's exactly what I meant. :rolleyes: You know, I've tried to point out what I saw as the quality issues and discuss them. I've asked you to point out where I was mistaken, and for you to offer what information on Master's quality. Iask you honeslty to discuss the issues and you give me Wallpaper? Thanks. You're a wealth of information and pretty good at giving digs back without addressing the questions.

As this forum doesn't support links, Anyone interested in the skirt panels can ask the regular poster Terminator, (Chris) from East Texas Spas to show you photos of the Master skirts. Or OM me and I'll even give you the link. OK? Or hop on over to the what's the best hot tub foroum and search yourself. Trust me, you;ll see exactly what I am talking about.

you posted: "....And if you knew anything about thermodynamics, you'd know most of the heat escapes the tub out of the top anyway, and not from all these elusive "gaps" I seemed to have missed noticing at all.

You know, I understand just a tiny bit about thermal dynamics. A hot tub's cabinet and skirting is very improtant to what you call "dead air space" and critical to it's insulation ability.

AS far as other manufacturer's panels, it's a viny overlaid on wood. Possible "defects in workmanship and malfunction, would most likely be delamination, improper substrates, defective fastners.

As I said, I don't care. I was trying to point out the differences in quality for these two spas. You completey ignored my questions, and haven't provided any solid information. Hey, I don't care if you have problems with your tub. I don't care if you love it. I don't care if you have a class action law suit. Hoenslty. Re-read my posts BEFORE you felt this was a p!sssing match i mentioned A lot of folks like thier Master Spas, I hope you enjoy yours, but it would be naive to consider them at the same level as Sundance. That's it. That's the posters question. Once again, if I'm wrong on any of my points, I ask you to point them out and discuss them.

Good luck

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Ok, I am the original poster and have considered the responses. I keep hearing about Dimension one spas. What makes them better than the Sundance? My wife is will to give up the large sized if someone can convince her that they have the best filtration, to me, the filtration seems the same in most of the top brands. So agaoin why is Dimension supposed to better? If I wanted the best spa, is there one that is head and shoulders above the rest? Is there a top 3 for quality?

Thanks in advance.

HDK

HDk,

Sorry I took the topic off track... as far as filtration; it's an equation of moving the water through a filter medium to trap dirt and particulate matter. Comparing filtration systems amoung competeing brands can get confusing. All in all, the more sq ft a filter has can be an indication if the system is up to handleing the volume of water. Some tubs use multiple smaller filters, some tubs offer a disposable filters that last several months. On my 320 gal tub, I have a standard pleated filter (65 sq ft). At first I thought this might not be enough when listening to the what other tubs have, but I've had great luck with water quality. From listening to others and monitoring the boards and being a bit of an enthusiast of tubs, I don't think any of the major brands really have a filtration problem and all work pretty good, despite thier marketing attempts to get you to belive one is superior to the other.

As fars a Best brand? That's tought. But to a newcomer into hot tubs, jsut starting looking for a higher end tub, I'd recomend sticking to the major name brands. Off the top of my head these include, Hotpsprings, Caldera, Artic, Jaquizzi, Marquis, Sundance, Coleman to name a few.

I'd stay away from:

Internet dealers. Tubs on Ebay, small garage brands (You know, the hot tub discounter that builds them themsevles). That's not to say you can't find a good value for you money with some of these places, but it's a lot harder, and overall you much much much better off sticking with the big guys who have a network of dealers, support and years of expereince and hundreds of thousands of satisfied customers. As I've mentioned Master has a bad rep. But we beaten that to death. The Thermaspas on Tv are overblown hype, and overpriced. The Big Box retailers offer low priced tubs, and it's been debated if it's a good "VALUE" for the money, but they are not conisdered to be a high end quality tub.

I would include Dimension 1 in the list of quality tubs. I've never heard anything bad about them and folks owning them have reported being very happy.

Stay away from the flashy, all sizzle not steak tubs. These are the tubs that brag outrageous jet counts, TVs' steroes, seveal waterfalls... and all come in at an ubelivable low price. A high end tub usually runs in the 8-12 grand price range. Check out the names I mentioned, look around, wet test. Don't be fooled by too much jargon, or bell's and whistles.

Come here and talk out what you found. Don't rush into anything, take your time. have fun. Wet Test.

I hope that helps. Good luck.

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Thanks for the reply, I am going to look at the filter specs and wet test next week. I'll post back what I found. BTW the Sundance doesnot use a OZinator, is that good, bad or doesn't matter?

HDK

Sundance offers the Sunzone CD (corona discharge) system.

There's debate if Ozinators really make that much difference. I think they do, and would recomend them.

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Wasn't Sundance Spas Inc. just bought out? New owners, geesh that sounds a little scary in my opinion.

I have not heard that, maybe its true. I thought they were owned by Jacuzzi and that Jacuzzi spas may have had an ownership change, I am not sure. Something that is floating around is that Master is no longer with Textron again it may not may true just something I have heard.

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How did the wet test go????

Looking to test the Sundance tomorrow (MOnday) and we looked at the Hotspring on the weekend and we are going to try that later this week. The filtartion on the hotsping seems nice, but I believe it is going to cost a couple of thousand more than the Sundance. BTW mife wife has now decided that 8' x8' will work, so I have more options. I thing tyhe master Spa is out and it is between the Sundance and the Hot spring.

I'll let you all know how I make out.

HDK

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Looking to test the Sundance tomorrow (MOnday) and we looked at the Hotspring on the weekend and we are going to try that later this week. The filtartion on the hotsping seems nice, but I believe it is going to cost a couple of thousand more than the Sundance. BTW mife wife has now decided that 8' x8' will work, so I have more options. I thing tyhe master Spa is out and it is between the Sundance and the Hot spring.

I'll let you all know how I make out.

HDK

Thank you

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Wasn't Sundance Spas Inc. just bought out? New owners, geesh that sounds a little scary in my opinion.

Good thing it's just your opinion.

But you know what' really is scary? Master has losing it's financing via Textron, at least that's the rumors going around...

:rolleyes:

Looks like the joke is you, Soaker.

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I know you like your spa. Can you tell me why you think its superior in QUALITY? Can you reasobaly tell me from a QUALITY standpoint what mistakes I've made in my above statements? I know you liked the idea of prefilters (which actually can damage the spa by restricting flow to the pumps). I know you are concerned about rodents in you tub. These are FEATURES (that I belive you've bought into on hype).

But can you point out where Master is better in QUALITY (failurre rates, BBB reports, dealer issues, engineering?

Thanks.

*******

The point is I never said it was superior in QUALITY or that any other tub is INFERIOR. What I listed was the features I LIKED and thought they make the tub a decent VALUE. What I call features, you call market hype to disguise Master Spa's cost cutting measures. My, they ARE insidious! I take umbrage at the implication. I don't like wood framed, full foamed tubs for a variety of personal reasons; you do, it's matter of opinion and clearly we'll never agree on it.

Why do I think my tub has good quality? It's rock solid, all components are easily accessible, the pumps can blow you out of your seat, the circ pump is quiet. Yes, the skirting is plastic - but easily removeable. I have the tub set up in economy mode (heats during only during filter cycle). The tub was 103 when we got out last night at 8:30pm, and it was 99 at the start of the first filter cycle at 4:30 am. Temps were in the low 40's and breezy. That's 4 degrees in 8 hours - I'm very happy with that. The skirting is cool to the touch and I feel no heat escape. I'm on a time of use meter - that means I pay about 1.4 cents per kilowatt hour for off-peak energy and 14 cents for on peak energy. The Balboa control pack combined with the tub's heat retention capability allows me to program all the spa's heating and filtering during off-peak energy hours. The tub is set up for low-maintenance all the way around.

I don't know what else to tell you. Based on what I've seen - I don't buy any of your arguements. You seem pretty shrill in your attempt to shout me down as the only one waiving the B.S. flag on this forum. In the final analysis, I encourage people to not listen to either of us and employ their own common sense. I think most people know a good value when they see one, and too much debate on specious quality issues, i.e. which skirting is the best, etc., is just a distraction from the cold hard facts. You generally get what you pay for despite your claims of marketing smoke and mirrors. You just need to determine what you want in the first place!

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I know you like your spa. Can you tell me why you think its superior in QUALITY? Can you reasobaly tell me from a QUALITY standpoint what mistakes I've made in my above statements? I know you liked the idea of prefilters (which actually can damage the spa by restricting flow to the pumps). I know you are concerned about rodents in you tub. These are FEATURES (that I belive you've bought into on hype).

But can you point out where Master is better in QUALITY (failurre rates, BBB reports, dealer issues, engineering?

Thanks.

*******

The point is I never said it was superior in QUALITY or that any other tub is INFERIOR. What I listed was the features I LIKED and thought they make the tub a decent VALUE. What I call features, you call market hype to disguise Master Spa's cost cutting measures. My, they ARE insidious! I take umbrage at the implication. I don't like wood framed, full foamed tubs for a variety of personal reasons; you do, it's matter of opinion and clearly we'll never agree on it.

Why do I think my tub has good quality? It's rock solid, all components are easily accessible, the pumps can blow you out of your seat, the circ pump is quiet. Yes, the skirting is plastic - but easily removeable. I have the tub set up in economy mode (heats during only during filter cycle). The tub was 103 when we got out last night at 8:30pm, and it was 99 at the start of the first filter cycle at 4:30 am. Temps were in the low 40's and breezy. That's 4 degrees in 8 hours - I'm very happy with that. The skirting is cool to the touch and I feel no heat escape. I'm on a time of use meter - that means I pay about 1.4 cents per kilowatt hour for off-peak energy and 14 cents for on peak energy. The Balboa control pack combined with the tub's heat retention capability allows me to program all the spa's heating and filtering during off-peak energy hours. The tub is set up for low-maintenance all the way around.

I don't know what else to tell you. Based on what I've seen - I don't buy any of your arguements. You seem pretty shrill in your attempt to shout me down as the only one waiving the B.S. flag on this forum. In the final analysis, I encourage people to not listen to either of us and employ their own common sense. I think most people know a good value when they see one, and too much debate on specious quality issues, i.e. which skirting is the best, etc., is just a distraction from the cold hard facts. You generally get what you pay for despite your claims of marketing smoke and mirrors. You just need to determine what you want in the first place!

Good for you.

Can you compare the quality of the spa to Sundance? After all that's what we were trying to do.

I'm sorry once again (I've lost coutn how many times I said that to you now) that you think I sound shrill. I was simply trying to understand the differences between features and overall quality.

What points don't you buy? That the thin steel frame is weaker than a wood frame? That the insualating abilities of a spa are greatly impacted by the sidewall? That Master has a history of cabinet skirting problems?

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But can you point out where Master is better in QUALITY (failurre rates, BBB reports, dealer issues, engineering?

Thanks.

*******

I went into my buddys new LSX friday night and its a junk. i cannot list all the problems with it , i will not live that long. Wet test before you buy! he did not and is very sorry.

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Well my wife and I wet tested the Sundance spas last night, and she was dissapointed. She feels that the spas are to deep for her. We hope to test the Hotsprings later this week. I will report back and the findings.

HDK

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Well my wife and I wet tested the Sundance spas last night, and she was dissapointed. She feels that the spas are to deep for her. We hope to test the Hotsprings later this week. I will report back and the findings.

HDK

How deep is the sundance?? 35". it seems to be the norm. some tubs are 38" to 41" deep and some of the round tubs are lower.

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Well, we tried the Hot Springs Grandee and liked it, although my wife still thinks the "good" seats are too deep. The dealer also sells LA Spas. My wife liked the idea that she could custom order on with all the good jets in a higher seat. Are LA Spas any good?

HDK

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  • 2 weeks later...

What points don't you buy? That the thin steel frame is weaker than a wood frame? That the insualating abilities of a spa are greatly impacted by the sidewall? That Master has a history of cabinet skirting problems?

Despite my better judgement, I'm going to beat this dead horse one last time. I've had my Master spa tub for almost a month now. We've had a cold snap that has put overnight temps into the low 30's. I have yet to see a drop of over 5 degrees from the spa's temp over an eight hour period. I have the spa heater set to 102 and it cuts off at 4:30 pm. When we get in it around 7:30 pm, it's 101 like we like it. The spa is easily heating up to set temp on the filter cycle and staying there until we get in. Does this sound like a spa with poor insulating qualities? These are facts - all your statements are backed up by nothing. Master spa has a history of skirting problems? Where is this history written - or is it just tribal knowledge (aka hearsay). Please point out where the consumer complaints are located so we can all be cut in on this history. I've had some of the skirting panels off a couple times now. I don't have any problem with them. This is a fact (for me). You may not like the way they look, but for me they are doing the job and look like every other skirting panel. I would also like to see your engineering data on "thin" steel frame vs. wood frame relative strength. What is "thin" anyway? Do you have any data on the thickness of steel framed spas on the market? If you do, let's see it. You ask me for data - I have real world use and facts, that's all. I don't know anything about Sundance other than it's features and I don't argue with the fact that it is likely a good tub too. The only factor to argue over is quality and only time will tell on that. So far, I've had no quality issues with my spa at all. I have two friends who were not so lucky with their Hotsprings spa.

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You are getting a brand name spa backlash from people not willing to accept change. Steel framed structures is speced out more then wood on any large project, not because of cost but structural integrity and no warping, splitting rotting associated with raw lumber. As to the insulation. If your spa isnt full foamed then people will say you got a poorly insulated spa. If you look at a styrofoam cup with thin walls, it does a fantastic job of keeping your hands from being boiled while in your hand and also if your home has R-19 insulation in the wall cavity you will see a very low cost to heat home but alot of people here think your home must also be fully foamed :lol: I have a" low end spa" without full foam and experiance the same as you do in my heater doesen't come on much at all even when temps are in the thirties. I have a master spa dealer by me and think they offer a well constructed spa that isn't stuffed with foam. Enjoy your spa and forget these goofballs whinning.

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Despite my better judgement, I'm going to beat this dead horse one last time. I've had my Master spa tub for almost a month now. We've had a cold snap that has put overnight temps into the low 30's. I have yet to see a drop of over 5 degrees from the spa's temp over an eight hour period. I have the spa heater set to 102 and it cuts off at 4:30 pm. When we get in it around 7:30 pm, it's 101 like we like it. The spa is easily heating up to set temp on the filter cycle and staying there until we get in. Does this sound like a spa with poor insulating qualities? These are facts - all your statements are backed up by nothing. Master spa has a history of skirting problems? Where is this history written - or is it just tribal knowledge (aka hearsay). Please point out where the consumer complaints are located so we can all be cut in on this history. I've had some of the skirting panels off a couple times now. I don't have any problem with them. This is a fact (for me). You may not like the way they look, but for me they are doing the job and look like every other skirting panel. I would also like to see your engineering data on "thin" steel frame vs. wood frame relative strength. What is "thin" anyway? Do you have any data on the thickness of steel framed spas on the market? If you do, let's see it. You ask me for data - I have real world use and facts, that's all. I don't know anything about Sundance other than it's features and I don't argue with the fact that it is likely a good tub too. The only factor to argue over is quality and only time will tell on that. So far, I've had no quality issues with my spa at all. I have two friends who were not so lucky with their Hotsprings spa.

I am very glad that you are enjoying your Master spa. I'm glad that after a whole month you are still happy with it. That's strange that 2 differetn friend of yours have had quality issues with Hotsprings. Hotsprings enjoys a very good reputation. Sounds a bit like what you call "tribal" history. Anyhow, we're talking Sundance and Master, not Hotsprings.

Anyhow/

Your statement about setting filter cycles and statying at temp are very nice too. Are they "Facts" that deal with insualtion and efficienty? No.

The "tribal" history of Master's skirt issues are docutmented at "whats the best hot tub" dot com . Search in the past year for "Tykes" And yes, to the casual eye, they "look" like every other skirting panel, but upon closer inspection, you'll see the issues I've spoken about. Research how Thermal insualtion and Full foam insualtion work, and then take a second look at the panles and their problems. Ok? Please don't call me out on a challange, until you've seen what's been documented. It's annoying. I spefically invited you to contact me if you wanted a pointer. I've yet to here from you. Here: the forum my not allow it, but a clever person can find it.

http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin...145986092/24#24

IPB Image

To get back to the Steel and wood, if you recall, we were trying to seperate quality, features and marketing. The statments that "Steel is stronger than wood" and how it is *marketed* by Master to imply that therefore a steel frame is stronger than a wood frame (simply because it's some type of "steel" ) is *misleading* for reasons I've already stated. Steel streagths and torsion,bending, flex are not a simple answer (not to mention quality of the steel). The same can be said about wood. DO you understand my point? When talking quality, you mixed in "marketing"/

Yes, you have real world 30 day use. That' s a data point. Facts? No, not really. You admit you have no knowelge of Sundance, only owned yor spa for 30 days, have not gone and looked at where I have pointed you to look.

Additionly when talking about Master, it's been documented that thier road side sales are misleading, thier rebate programs that dealers are involved with are the subject of scam reports and have caused the integrity of the company to be called into question.

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