Pool Bids Negotiable?

[KFKH]

My husband and I are getting three bids for an inground pool. While we have never had a pool installed, we assume the price has some degree of negotiability, but how much? We want to be fair, but also don't want to be stupid. We are concerned that what we are looking at on paper now (we already have two bids), may grow beyond our expectations as the project unfolds due to options we haven't even considered yet (upgrades to pool lighting, finishing, for example.) We want a cushion in our financial commitment to account for this.

Also, it is difficult to compare the two bids because costs on one bid seem to be "included" or standard on the other bid.

We could really use some advice on this initial, slightly overwhelming, aspect of the process.

Thanks!

Karen

[Christopher]

My husband and I are getting three bids for an inground pool. While we have never had a pool installed, we assume the price has some degree of negotiability, but how much? We want to be fair, but also don't want to be stupid. We are concerned that what we are looking at on paper now (we already have two bids), may grow beyond our expectations as the project unfolds due to options we haven't even considered yet (upgrades to pool lighting, finishing, for example.) We want a cushion in our financial commitment to account for this.

Also, it is difficult to compare the two bids because costs on one bid seem to be "included" or standard on the other bid.

We could really use some advice on this initial, slightly overwhelming, aspect of the process.

Thanks!

Karen

[Christopher]

My wife and I just went through the same process. We had 4 people come over and give suggestions. I asked each to give me a detailed itemized quote, broken down by section (ie. such as pool, lighting, landscape, fence) and then each item under that section ie. pump type, filters, type of lights, type of pool, concrete, etc.).

This way we could be sure of everything we would/could get (a checklist), understand why we needed it and what to expect from each contractor when the job is complete. A checklist is extremely important! We had 2 of the contractors not supply the information, which let me know they most likely had something to hide and I wouldnt want them in the end anyhow.

Ironically, after finding that our expenses went from an expected 25k to around 40k, with taxes and finance charges, we decided the kids and the two of us can wait a few years.

Ask questions, get answers, document everything and understand the process. Its your money and you should invest it wisely to get exactly what you expect.

Be sure to check their quality of work by visiting a site or two as well. And keep in mind their quote generally does not include landscape, exterior lighting if desired, fencing and some concrete.

[KFKH]

Thanks, Christopher. It would definitely help if we shaped the quote rather than having the pool builders disclose the information their way. I'm going to follow your excellent suggestion and ask them to reformat their quote so we can compare apples to apples.

Thanks!

Karen

My wife and I just went through the same process. We had 4 people come over and give suggestions. I asked each to give me a detailed itemized quote, broken down by section (ie. such as pool, lighting, landscape, fence) and then each item under that section ie. pump type, filters, type of lights, type of pool, concrete, etc.).

This way we could be sure of everything we would/could get (a checklist), understand why we needed it and what to expect from each contractor when the job is complete. A checklist is extremely important! We had 2 of the contractors not supply the information, which let me know they most likely had something to hide and I wouldnt want them in the end anyhow.

Ironically, after finding that our expenses went from an expected 25k to around 40k, with taxes and finance charges, we decided the kids and the two of us can wait a few years.

Ask questions, get answers, document everything and understand the process. Its your money and you should invest it wisely to get exactly what you expect.

Be sure to check their quality of work by visiting a site or two as well. And keep in mind their quote generally does not include landscape, exterior lighting if desired, fencing and some concrete.

[Looony2nz]

we also just got a few estimates and what we did was after we figured out what we liked and wanted from the first quote, we asked for the same things quoted from the companies that came out afterward so we could compare apples to apples like you said. Its definitely easier to compare that way.

We're wondering how long everything will take now since we had Hurricane Wilma come thru here. Permitting to begin with will probably take longer than usual, so who knows how long our relatively small project will take

[KFKH]

So, it sounds like you contracted with a company.....did you negotiate the original bid?

We are also in Florida and are certain Wilma will impact our plans. Oh well, things could be a lot worse, right?

Thanks!

Karen

we also just got a few estimates and what we did was after we figured out what we liked and wanted from the first quote, we asked for the same things quoted from the companies that came out afterward so we could compare apples to apples like you said. Its definitely easier to compare that way.

We're wondering how long everything will take now since we had Hurricane Wilma come thru here. Permitting to begin with will probably take longer than usual, so who knows how long our relatively small project will take

[Looony2nz]

Karen,

so where in FL are you. Yes, we do have a contract. Just firming up the financing this week. We negotiated the orig. quote a little tiny bit. We are going with minimal decking (pavers) and we would even have tried to do with a little less (2 ft around the back portion of the pool instead of 3ft. - hard to explain - but anyway, the difference in price was so small, the sales rep said just keep it the way it is, "threw in" the pool cleaner (Hayward Navigator) and we settled on $500 less. We really couldn't complain because it includes the salt generator we wanted and another co. wanted 400 dollars more for.

The pool we will eventually have is 28x14, free form, 3-5 ft., nothing fancy.

We are in Boca Raton - where are you?

[KFKH]

We are in Tequesta, the last to be visited by Wilma in Palm Beach County.

Thanks so much for your info. It is really helpful. We are going with a slightly larger rectangular pool, but same as you 3-5 ft., nothing fancy--but "nothing fancy" is surprisingly pricey. Good luck with your project and I hope it isn't delayed too long.

[DKN1997]

apples to apples sounds great on paper, but in this business, you really need to shop reputable company 1st price 2nd.

Trust me when I say that you truly get what you pay for. Recommendations from friends and family are the best for choosing a pool builder. most of the good ones around here don't advertise at all, it's all referrals.

beware of the guy who is blowing out "great deals" in the sunday paper. ask about the warranty as well. not for the equipment, as most manufacturers have basically the same warranties, but on the shell (gunite) walls (vinyl) etc...

on gunite, insist on 1/2" steel rebar

on vinyl, insist on a concrete collar around steel or fiberglass walls, no individual footings.

been doing this a long time and have seen all of the shady jobs, some real nightmares.

also, run far away from any builder who will not take you to the home of an existing pool he built. Most customers have no problem doing the builder a favor by showing off their pool if they were happy with the construction process/results.

[KFKH]

Wow! Thank you for the specifics. Right now the two companies that have given me quotes are referrals from friends. My apples-to-apples dilemma is that we cannot determine on our own how to best invest our money here. For example, one company quoted a heater size of 112,000 BTU and the other quoted a 5.0 ton heat pump. Are these the same thing? One quoted an automatic aquaswitch at $2,600 and the other at $1,400. Just wish there was someone who could say, "To do this pool right, you need XXXX and it is going to cost you $$$$." And, then we could go to the pool companies and say tell us what it would cost to fill this order exactly as specified. This is a big investment and we want to be smart, not cheap. I'm babbling.....thank you for your help. It is greatly appreciated. I've made note of your suggestions.

[DKN1997]

Wow! Thank you for the specifics. Right now the two companies that have given me quotes are referrals from friends. My apples-to-apples dilemma is that we cannot determine on our own how to best invest our money here. For example, one company quoted a heater size of 112,000 BTU and the other quoted a 5.0 ton heat pump. Are these the same thing? One quoted an automatic aquaswitch at $2,600 and the other at $1,400. Just wish there was someone who could say, "To do this pool right, you need XXXX and it is going to cost you $$$$." And, then we could go to the pool companies and say tell us what it would cost to fill this order exactly as specified. This is a big investment and we want to be smart, not cheap. I'm babbling.....thank you for your help. It is greatly appreciated. I've made note of your suggestions.

anyway. 112,000 btu heater is a gas fired heater. the heat pump is electric. it operates like a central air condtioning compressor in reverse. makes heat instead of cool. depends on climate and your needs. if you need to heat up quick, gas is the way to go. if you want to get it warm and keep it that way most of the time, the heat pump is a good idea. 112,btu sound real small to me. I tend to oversize gas heaters on pools. around here, we get high wind and cold weather during the beginning and end of the season.

aquaswitch is kind of antiquated. would move right up to the Jandy Aqualink. it gives you in house controller and an optional spa side remote. The newest version has a handheld pda (pool digital assistant) that allows you to operate everything from a simple handheld remote.

also, if you get all jandy products for the equipment (pump, filter, heater) you qualify for the proedge warranty. it extends the warranty on all the jandy equipment to 3 years.

[jkapit]

We just went through the same process. We had 4 companies bid for our pool.

The line item costs and products varied widely, but in the end the total pool prices were not that far off from each other. For instance, some companies included salt generation, one a sand filter, one a DE, and another a cartridge filter. Some included 60 ft of gas line, others 100ft. Some included the pool cover, others did not. One recommended a heat pump and the rest a gas heater. Some companies included the topo-survey and others did not.

From what I can tell, there will be a number of extra cost items that may not be priced into the contract that you may need to be prepared to pay. In my case, installation of a dry sump since they hit water, extra gas line footage, extra fill dirt, extra retaining wall since the elevation of the pool was higher than I originally thought. All these costs were estimated by the pool company so I was not suprised, but are technically not in the contract for the pool.

Even though this intially seemed confusing, I was not really that concerned with the prices for each individual component since in my mind the total price of the project and reputation of the builder is all that really matters.

I went to see a few jobs, talked to a number of people who used the various companies then made a decision.

Lastly, read the contract very carefully. There were a number of things I wanted changed or added to make me feel comfortable about moving forward with the project. I am not a lawyer, but was able to work through the contract. Make sure you understand it before you sign it. I've read a number of posts that people were suprised about what was in the contract after they signed it!

Last week they excavated and this week the re-bar is going in, so-far so-good.

Good luck.

[Sunbuilt Pools]

Heat pumps and pool heaters are very different. A gas pool heater works like a stove top on full. When you want heat it fires up and heats the water quickly. Though 112,000 BTU is quite small ( I hope you are in warm area and putting in small pool). The heat pump on the other hand is more like the oven. Slow to get up to temperature but once ther maintains it at a constant temperature. The heat pump works on the theory you keep the pool at a constant temperature while the gas heater is a heat when you cant to use the pool theory. The heat pump requires no gas hook up but has a more substantial electrical demand (usually 50 AMPS). The heat pump will only work to about 45 degrees and loses efficiency as it gets colder, but the cost of running a heat pump is more economical especially with rising energy costs. The Heatpump is a much more expensive unit.

I have to agree with the last builder who commented. Some builders try to convince the buyer that pools are a commodity and that everyone is basically the same. Equipment is one part of the comparison but quality of construction is very important. Be sure to ask questions regarding drainage, decks on fill dirt, plumbing sizing and pool hydraulics. Don't try to become en engineer, but make sure your builder wants to build you the right construction for your needs which include budget, design considerations, pool use and construction demands. Like the one family, you may decide that to build what you would be happy with, you may have to wait or change your budget.

As for negatiating price, some will and some won't. I generally approach with my straight offer. Others boost their price so they can discount it. So all you can do is ask. If they are ready to drop the price by large amounts (say $5000 if you sign today) then is this really a builder you feel you can trust?

[DKN1997]

Heat pumps and pool heaters are very different. A gas pool heater works like a stove top on full. When you want heat it fires up and heats the water quickly. Though 112,000 BTU is quite small ( I hope you are in warm area and putting in small pool). The heat pump on the other hand is more like the oven. Slow to get up to temperature but once ther maintains it at a constant temperature. The heat pump works on the theory you keep the pool at a constant temperature while the gas heater is a heat when you cant to use the pool theory. The heat pump requires no gas hook up but has a more substantial electrical demand (usually 50 AMPS). The heat pump will only work to about 45 degrees and loses efficiency as it gets colder, but the cost of running a heat pump is more economical especially with rising energy costs. The Heatpump is a much more expensive unit.

I have to agree with the last builder who commented. Some builders try to convince the buyer that pools are a commodity and that everyone is basically the same. Equipment is one part of the comparison but quality of construction is very important. Be sure to ask questions regarding drainage, decks on fill dirt, plumbing sizing and pool hydraulics. Don't try to become en engineer, but make sure your builder wants to build you the right construction for your needs which include budget, design considerations, pool use and construction demands. Like the one family, you may decide that to build what you would be happy with, you may have to wait or change your budget.

As for negatiating price, some will and some won't. I generally approach with my straight offer. Others boost their price so they can discount it. So all you can do is ask. If they are ready to drop the price by large amounts (say $5000 if you sign today) then is this really a builder you feel you can trust?

agreed, anyone who gives you that horse hockey line of "...if you sign today" should be avoided.

also don't forget to ask about the service department. This might only apply if you intend on having somone service the pool (which i recommend for the first season, then you can spy on him and see how he does it)

We have taken over many projects where the pool was completed, but "the guy disappeared" there a lot of companies who want to just build pools, make the bucks, and run. If they are not willing to service the pool (even if you don't want it), then how good of a job do you think they will do?