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Moto Massage Question For H/s Gurus!


r5ran

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I concur with a lot of these posts.  Hot Springs and the local dealer do not do part replacements rather they want to provide entire assemblies. In my first case, I had a leak in an end of the spa heater.  The local dealer wanted to replace the heater at a cost of $800.  I found an end cap replacement kit for $20 - did the replacement and save $780.  With regard to the moto massage hoses.  I found the same situation.  Hot Springs and the local dealer wanted to replace the moto massage assemblies and not the hoses themselves.  The moto massage assemblies come over $100 and with labor would be nearly $300-$350 dollars.  I am going to TRY to find the hoses and replace them myself.  I am wondering if there are any updates on DIY moto massage hoses??? 

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  • 3 months later...

Just did this repair and working like a charm.  $7 and a one week wait sure beats $100+ for a whole new assembly.  Have enough to replace it again if needed. Used 12x16 mm tubing and only problem is using the original clamps to hold it on.  Couple extra small zip ties on it for now.  Will be looking for something like a fuel line compression clamp in the future.  Specifically one that will hold up to the water and chemicals. 

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  • 2 months later...

Just did the mod as my HS silicon tubing has wasted away/split on my DX motomassager on my 2006 Jetsetter and works a treat. Both arms zoom up and down as they should now for £7.49 from Amazon.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08HJHDZ4H/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

seems good quality silicon tube. If it lasts a year and needs replacing again took all of 30 mins to replace, so way cheaper than £134.00 for a new MM Vertebrae assembly. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi, I am currently on a trip, and I'm not able to view a MM spine. It's been over a year since I replaced mine, but going by memory...

I remember that one (or both ) ends have a collar that slides over the outside of the hose, locking it on the end fitting? Ij that's the case, just take a large screwdriver and pry it back. I do remember the original blue tubing can get stuck on the ends from time, but again, nothing that some serious (and careful) prying won't remove. remember, the old hosing will no longer be used, so if you damage it in removal, it's not a problem.

Hope this helps, let me know if you have any success. I will be home next week and can view the actual part, if needed.

Glad to know that my MM fix has been helping other HS owners!

Randy

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Ryan, 

To steel a Quote from Apollo 13...   “You  are a steely eyed missile man!”,,  If you ever come to the UK, (Kent) there is a beer in the fridge for you!,

Been trying to get my head around this for ages, I have a Vangard with three moto-massagers.  
 

Many thanks to all the contributors

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OK, so whomever the original poster on this is, if you ever find yourself in the Baltimore area, let me know. I have a beer or five for you.

I was able to get the jets apart. The blue tubing on the inside pretty much just ripped away. I think years of the chemicals have just eaten through the rubber.

Once I pulled the one end off, I pushed the threaded end back a good inch or two. I was able to use a pair of needle nose pliers to pull the hose out through the threaded end opening.

I made it a point to keep all of the hose components. One post on here said the length of the hose you should cut is 9 inches. When I measured the length of the hose that remained on the threaded end, as well as the part that was on the jet head, plus the middle tube, the total length was 8.5 inches.

 

From Amazon I bought the smallest zip ties I could find: ($5)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07VMLH4ZS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I also bought the replacement hose: ($10)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08HJHDZ4H/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

I was able to get the hose over the threaded end and zip tie it with the plastic clip in place. I trimmed off the remainder of zip tie. Put back into collar, turn a bit to avoid the two rails, and push the hose out the other end. I then attached that end to the big head and made sure the two pegs lined up. Pushing that back in and pulling on the threaded part while also making sure it aligned in the tracks. Also made sure both ends were zip tied.

 

Did this four times. Screwed all 4 jets in. Got new manifolds from the spa dealer (mine were missing the black O-ring). Got the manifold hooked up. Filled the tub. Turned on jets...

 

One set worked, other didn't. Scratched head. Remembered about a post where someone had jets that were brand new, but the air pressure just wasn't high enough to move the jets. Turned a couple of dials on my tub... SUCCESS!

 

The local HotSprings store sells these jets for $130 after tax apiece, times 4 jets would have been $520 USD. 

 

I would add that if anyone ends up having a salt cell go bad, I highly recommend the Hot Tub Wizard. He has a cell that instead of being $900 (what dealer quoted) is $200. You can replace it yourself. The best news? He provides a cheat sheet of how to keep your tub going for decades by not having to buy the chemicals through the dealer (dealer charges me $17 for the salt, which I need every time I empty the tub. He points out where you can get it for $2).

 

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. $15 and your knowledge saved me quite a lot.

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Thanks to all, I am just glad that my fumbling ended up being a success for so many others, besides fixing my MM issues. 

I better learn to start drinking more beer!

Thanks, Randy M

 

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  • 1 year later...
On 11/11/2017 at 11:27 AM, r5ran said:

 

Hi,

You were right I did not see your request for an update until today. Sorry for my delay,  hopefully you still read this forum and get my update......

So the original "beer" tubing lasted almost 2 years. Not as long as the HS tubing perhaps, but considering the cost savings, I consider it a success. However, as I mentioned in my earlier post, when I replaced the tubing again, I reordered and used thinner tubing. This was much more pliable and worked perfectly without any modifications. However, since the O.D. of this thinner tubing was too small for the press on collars on each end, I slid a short (about 1/2" long) piece of this same tubing over each end of the tube, that effectively made it the same O.D. as the HS stuff.  This allowed the press on fittings on each end to hold perfectly. I now have replaced all 3 spines of my tub's MM and they all operate like new.  I did check this thinner tubing after about a year's time, and while it was working fine, did see some aging and brittleness in it. So this tubing probably will need to be replaced a little more often. However, since it only cost a few dollars and about 15 minutes of time for each one, it's not a big deal and well worth it.

Hope this helps........

BTW, the reason I saw this post again, is that I just discovered I was not getting any air out of my single MM lower (back) port (neck jets and all other air connections work fine). When I searched this forum for some help on my air issue, I saw this request for an update on my tubing experiment....I did write another post about my air issue, but if anyone reading this has any advice for me, it would be appreciated.

Thank you,

Randy

I followed Randy's instructions replacing the old tubing with a new silicon .5 in ID and .625 in OD. The only problem I had was slipping on a .5 in. length of tubing to match the outer diameter of the old tubing. There was no way I could just slip it on. So, what I did is cut a small piece of the tubing, opened it up like a book, and slipped it under the very tight collar. Hopefully it will hold. On testing, the motomassage worked fine. Thanks for the instructions.

 

 

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I followed Randy's instructions replacing the old tubing with a new silicon .5 in ID and .625 in OD. The only problem I had was slipping on a .5 in. length of tubing to match the outer diameter of the old tubing. There was no way I could just slip it on. So, what I did is cut a small piece of the tubing, opened it up like a book, and slipped it under the very tight collar. Hopefully it will hold. On testing, the motomassage worked fine. Thanks for the instructions. Also note that the two black dots on the motomassage must be vertical when properly installed. Also note that in my case there were two possible holes to screw the motomassage in. Only the one on the left worked--by experience.

 

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  • 5 weeks later...

Thanks a lot to all for sharing your experience!

I can confirm, that clear silicone pipe 12mm ID/16mm OD worked perfectly and brought moto-massage on my old Grandee back to life. 3.3ft pipe cost me somewhat ~$9+tax from Amazon. I've cut it to 9" long pieces, replaced broken pipes and zip-tied on the threaded ends.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Thank you for making this video. As the original poster of this procedure a few years ago on the Spa forum, I have wanted to make a video explaining this better than I could in the forums, but of course, never got around to it. Randy

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Hi, 

That's kind of a surprise, as mine usually last about 18-24 months before they start to slow down. Only thing I can think of is to try a different brand of tubing? You are using silicon beer making tubing, right? I tried to go through my receipts and was not able to locate my most recent purchase, (it's probably been 5 years now, as I ordered several feet of tubing so that much lasts forever). Perhaps your chemical mix or temp is harsher? I am not a fanatic on chem levels and such, basically use Dichlor and shock after the initial water balance and keep the temp at 100, which is very comfortable to us.

Thanks,

Randy

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Thank you for your reply. Yes, I used beer making silicon tubing. The motomassage still works but occasionally it stops going up and down and restarts if I nudge it. I keep the ph at about 7.4, use silver ion, and non-chlorine shock, temperature is 103F. I'll keep going until it stops. What is it that fails in the tubing that keeps it from going up and down? If you find the source of your tubing, please send it to me. Also, how did you compensate for the thinner tubing at the ends, did you use zip ties? Thanks.

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Off hand, I can't think of anything else....but is it possible you have the hose just a bit too long, or even too short? This could cause the spine to not want to sit perfectly level at rest, which could prohibit easy initial movement.  It does not take much to make a difference. I think I remember 9" is what I cut my hose to. If you have the old HS hose, you could compare it to make sure it is exactly the same. Just a thought. 

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15 hours ago, r5ran said:

Perhaps your chemical mix or temp is harsher?

Water chemistry absolutely plays a critical role in lifespan of motomassager jets.  OEM parts can last 10+ years with proper water chemistry

11 hours ago, exaramco said:

I keep the ph at about 7.4,

7.4 is the lowest you should maintain.  I personally boost whenever it drops below 7.5 - because the dichlor I use is acidic so it pulls the pH down with use.

 

11 hours ago, exaramco said:

What is it that fails in the tubing that keeps it from going up and down? I

The silicone rubber is aging prematurely due to improper water chemistry and corroding faster than it should

 

2 hours ago, r5ran said:

but is it possible you have the hose just a bit too long, or even too short? This could cause the spine to not want to sit perfectly level at rest, which could prohibit easy initial movement. 

No the problem most likely is that the silicone tubing is fully round. And the Hotspring Silicone tubing is special spec - two sides are shaved slightly so the silicone tubing has an "oval" shape on the exterior.  Using Silicone tubing without modifications which can cause issues with the movement of the jets.

 

 

 

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So, here is the latest. I removed the motomassage because it was faltering. I replaced the silicone tubing with the same tubing I used before, cut to the same length as the original moto tubing. Used small zip ties to secure the tubing. Reassemble, aligning the tubing properly. Now it doesn't go up and down at all. What went wrong?

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On 9/17/2013 at 12:52 PM, r5ran said:

Steve,

Thanks for your effort and this very thorough answer. You are correct that this is a unique looking hose (with the flat sections, as you mentioned) that I obviously will not acquire exactly. However, before I received your reply, I did find an online source for some silicone tubing with the same I.D., O.D. and wall thickness for a minimal cost. I should be receiving it shortly and will give it a try. Even though, after your explanation, it most likely will not work, I think the few dollar investment was worth the risk. I'll let you know my results. As the previous reader, Preserved Swine, (love that name!) stated, I am not the only one to consider this.

Also, I do not believe my chemistry is at fault here, as the hosing was torn exactly around the flare of the threaded end. The rest of the hose (and all the other M/M hosing) is in perfect shape, and reuseable, albeit about a 1/2 inch too short now. It is pretty obvious that when the plastic retainer (which is extremely tight) was slipped over this flare when it was originally constructed, it cut and/or weakened the hose at that point. It may have not been a deep enough cut for the hose to fail initially, but weakened it enough, that after flexing in operation, it failed prematurely.

Thank you,

Randy

Randy I am 100% on the same page as you. That’s exactly what’s happened to mine and the fatigue over time has just caused the rubber to fail.

 

I think it’s a design latent defect and once your warranty is up you find your self in a world of pain. 

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On 7/28/2022 at 1:22 PM, exaramco said:

So, here is the latest. I removed the motomassage because it was faltering. I replaced the silicone tubing with the same tubing I used before, cut to the same length as the original moto tubing. Used small zip ties to secure the tubing. Reassemble, aligning the tubing properly. Now it doesn't go up and down at all. What went wrong?

Hello,

Okay, trying to diagnose this just from a note can be just be a guess....

First, if it is not moving at all, it may be the small air line is torn or not on completely. The MM needs that added air boost to move at all. (BTW- that air line can be replaced with silicone beer tubing, too). If you have two MM seats, are both failing? Try removing the filters, too and see if that helps....like I said, the MM needs the maximum pressure to operate smoothly.

While I know others had said they just used a small zip tie on the ends with success (and that would be easier), I have not tried that. As I explained in my Nov 11, 2017 post, I used an additional piece of tubing slipped over the ends to increase the O.D. to the correct size.

"However, since the O.D. of this thinner tubing was too small for the press on collars on each end, I slid a short (about 1/2" long) piece of this same tubing over each end of the tube, that effectively made it the same O.D. as the HS stuff.  This allowed the press on fittings on each end to hold perfectly."

Remember, the MM spine has to be totally free of any binds with totally equal movement in both directions, there is very little margin of error or room for any resistance....hence it fails as soon as the tubing gets a little less pliable. Hope this helps.

On a different note, I just sold my home in the U.P. of Michigan where my beloved HS Vanguard resides, and it stays with the house. So I will be without a hot tub for a while, but not for long. I will be in the market for a replacement in my new residence in Florida soon. I have not kept up on the hot tub market much since I bought my Vanguard 14 years ago, so I will have to start fresh on what's out there.

My HS still runs and looks like new after 14 tough U.P. winters, so I am thinking of another HS, however, I don't know if I need a full-foam tub in Florida, and new HS tubs are expensive, even though it's hard to ignore how well it served me since 2008.

Since it was just myself most of the time, I would be prefer a smaller tub. I do want  a lounger seat this time, while a circulation pump, ozone and powerful jets are still a must. My wife demands a good size cool down seat. The pre-2009 Vanguards had a massive cool down seat, that she just loved to lie out on, that also worked well as a safe step for entry/exit and for kids to sit on. HS cut the cool down seat in half in the updated 2009.5 version and added another tiny corner seat. While that may have added another seat (that marketing loves to brag about), to us, it was a major step backwards. Since a cool down seat takes up valuable space, seems fewer manufacturers have this handy and safe feature.

Lots of choices out there, so any suggestions or advice would be welcome.

Thanks, Randy

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On 1/25/2020 at 7:07 AM, Gweebs said:

Wow. I wish I saw this earlier!  I just bought 4 jets for my 2009 Grandee. I guess they only last 10 years. Shame. $450 with tax and shipping. The tubing was stiff as was the manifolds that I also bought

that is an awful lot of money for a little tube

Watkins should make tube available. There is nothing wrong with the splines and of course a technician wants a simple repair and not a complex one 

Regarding the tech choosing a simple approach VS a complex one: if the complex route is taken you can bet it will take longer and the labor cost goes up. One way or another it costs what it costs.

 

Having wrenched on HS spas for actually 15 years now, I have never rebuilt a single Motomassage jet or even tried, as the spines DO AGE as a result of being exposed to water chemistry. Even when that chemistry is ideal, wear occurs trust me. I’ve done all kinds of custom projects to spas over the years. Most recently I retrofitted the newest Freshwater Salt system into a technically non compatible 2013 Prodigy and it’s still working fine for the customer. I brainstorm ways to improve the product all the time even though I don’t work for Watkins Wellness, formerly Watkins Manufacturing. They did try to hire me once but they wouldn’t let me bring my dog to work so I turned them down :)

 

If there is a way to make these jets more permanently functional I have not discovered it yet.

 

Lastly, other factors that WILL affect moto jet movement ability are: filter condition, diverter position, and air control valve position.

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