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Hot Tub For The High Desert?


galosher

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Hi all,

Thanks for this great forum! When I decided to buy a hot tub and found that consumer reports hasn't reviewed them, I had no idea where to turn. Now, after much research and reading through many posts, I have a bunch of newbie questions for you before I buy my first hot tub.

First off, here is my situation: I have a vacation house in the high desert (Joshua Tree, CA) that I visit about 2x/mo. Sometimes I'm there every weekend, and sometimes it's empty for 3-4 weeks at a time. I will be building a patio and pouring a concrete pad for my new hot tub. The tub will have at least one side against either a retaining wall or dirt since I have a little hill going down from the house and I want to create an in-ground "look".

Here is what I'm looking/hoping for:
-room for ~6 people
-a simple, easy cleaning/filtration system ... more questions on this in a moment ...
-energy efficiency (I have 220V available that I can run to the new tub).
-NO fancy lighting, molded recliner lounge seats, waterfalls, etc. i'm totally happy with simple bench seats and a few basic jets. the only "bells and whistles" feature i'm potentially interested in is bluetooth stereo
-ability to keep it cold in the summer
-ability to turn the tub on/off remotely (I have wifi in the house)
-LOW maintenance and a comprehensive warranty.
-attractive exterior

Can you recommend any hot tubs based on my desires above?

And can you help me understand some of these topics that remain mysterious to me:

1. I have read about the following cleaning/filtering systems: salt water, bromine, chlorine, minerals, and biguanide. There are also the ozone and ionizers, but those seem to always be coupled with bromine or chlorine. I am honestly leaning toward a salt water system, but can someone direct me to a comprehensive comparison of all of these methods? I'm still a little confused about the benefits of all of them and the relative amount of maintenance needed.
2. Since at least one side of my hot tub will be against a retaining wall or dirt, is there anything I should worry about in terms of mice and insects getting in? Should I keep a certain distance from my tub wall to the dirt and build a platform?
3. Are there any high-quality hot tubs (in terms of reliability, speed and efficiency of heating, R-value) that don't have a million fancy jets and lights and stuff?
4. Is there anything I should be looking out for in reviewing warranties? What is considered a "good" warranty for a new hot tub?
5. Are there certain hot tubs that are better suited for the high desert? We get very extreme temperatures (112 degrees F to 8 degrees F are the extremes I've experienced), very harsh sun, heavy winds, and almost no rain.
6. Lastly, is anyone familiar with any retailers near Joshua Tree/Palm Springs/Riverside? A recommendation would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance for any advice and help you can give! This is quite a learning process!

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Congrats on your decision to purchase a tub.

There is a lot of meat here- some easy to answer and some not so easy. I'll touch on a few things to try to help you out.

Regarding efficiency, most tubs on the market that are 220v are pretty efficient, and almost all will have an "Economy" mode that you can run set your tub to during the warmer months to further help you reduce overall costs, and will keep youf ability to heat the tub at its lowest output as possible. As most tubs are designed to protect against the perils of winter, having something that is okay for the desert is a fairly easy find.

Most tubs now toss in "Bells and whistles" for free. Rightly so, you should indeed ask if you can forgo the things you do not need but some spas only come with LED lighting, Waterfalls, etc. Bluetooth is becoming more and more ingrained into audio systems that today's tubs are outfitted with.

Pertaining to Wifi- Balboa Instruments is working on an app for your phone that will connect your phone to the spa's control panel/motherboard. Balboa deals in control panels & power packs and is carried by a large portion of spa manufacturers but you'll need to specifically ask what brands/models can be outfitted with this technology. Which leads me to....

Dealers. Many posters on here are or work for dealers and/or manufacturers, and most agree that while there are an upper-tier of tubs that are industry leaders, that will never trump the quality of the dealer that stands behind to product post-sale. Make sure your dealer is established and reputable, lest you get stuck with a quality product with zero post-sale support. This is directly tied to some of your queries regarding warranties and overall tub quality.

Lastly, I would never recommend having anything set directly against a spa's cabinet other than approved products (Steps, cover lifts, etc). A retaining wall is better as 1) Ground water can get into the cabin of the spa and corrode/erode/destroy the components of the spa 2) Earth/Ground water can destroy the cabinet, reducing its ability to insulate the spa, reduce its efficiency, and its overall safety 3) As you acknowledged- Any number of pests can and will try to get into the tub. Why make their job easier 4) It may void warranties 5) If there is ever service work to be done, most techs can only work on what they can access. If they cannot access a side of a spa they are unlikely to work on it. Most spas manufactured are designed to sit above the ground, self-contained, and require access around it.

I hope this helps. I am sure many other posters will add to or follow up with points I made or failed to address.

Good luck moving forward.

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Hey galosher!

We at Hot Spring are excited to see your interest in purchasing a new hot tub! Given the depth of our product line, we have a variety of products that will fit your needs, particularly temperature consistency in high heat areas. I highly encourage you to visit www.hotspring.com to experience some of these products and learn about them. Particularly our ACE salt water sanitation system which is absolutely phenomenal (www.hotspring.com/ace).

Regarding your other questions, please call us at your convenience at 800-999-4688. We will walk you through our water care recommendations, installation assistance, jet designs, and other features that set us apart. And of course, link you with a dealer in the desert!

Thanks for considering a Hot Spring! Speak with you soon. You'll be hot tubbing in no time.

Thanks,

Steve

---Hot Spring Spas---

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Solid advice Dan,

Nice Pitch Hot springs ;-) not being at the house all the time might make you want to reconsider the Hot Spring though... Ever notice most of the posts asking for help fixing spas are for Hot Springs, tiger river, and caldera??? Right now 7 of the first ten service help requests on this forms fist page are hot spring made spas... Just saying...

The Balboa system is the best out there, very few issues and the Wifi feature is cool. Find a brand using the top north american parts like Balboa, and Waterways and that's half the battle, there is a very good reason these two OEM's have been around so long, they build solid components. So many brands now have gone over to cheap Chinese parts and its a big quality issue.

There are a few brands would suit your needs, but make sure you have a good local dealer, stay away from the dump and run expos, and blowout sales...

Problem you have is this... you want simple jetting but wi-fi and stereo... weird mix, most of the tubs with simple jets and lots of bells and whistles like wi-fi and stereos are lower end, to get all the things you want you will end up in a higher end jetting (lots of the big hi flow therapy jets)

My Short List would be Twilight, they have the wifi option, the Eco Pure filtration is a good active filtration system, running costs are good... I know all the dealers here hate Master because of their spa expo events (they come into town sell a pile of spas and leave :) ), but truth is they use the top parts and have very few issues and consistently win most of the top awards. (notice the total lack of service help requests on the forums for them)

The Beachcomber or Catalina lines are decent as well.. same top parts list, but not sure if they do wi-fi

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I think that the number of service related threads for those brands is due to the fact that Watkins (Hot Springs, Caldera) sells significantly more hot tubs than other brands. You are making a false equivalency, as is typical of Master Spas employees. It's not the traveling spa show itself that gives you a bad reputation. It's the dishonesty that surrounds the show and Master Spas. The website shows pools, bbq's, furniture, etc. Go to the show and there are no pools and 2 bbqs next to a set of furniture. As a matter of fact, there is a Tuff Pool on the website, but your company does not sell Tuff Pools. When I asked your sales guy, he said the pool people pulled out at the last minute :lol:. The ads imply that multiple manufacturers are represented, which is obviously not true. I won't even get into the ridiculous lies that I heard while posing as a shopper, or that other customer's tell us.

I'm not here to pick a fight, but let's be honest. Watkins products are certainly not worse than Master Spas. Any independent service techs here wanna step up and make that claim? I doubt it. Fyi, I am in no way affiliated with Watkins and feel there are many arguments to be made for not purchasing them.

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I think that the number of service related threads for those brands is due to the fact that Watkins (Hot Springs, Caldera) sells significantly more hot tubs than other brands. You are making a false equivalency, as is typical of Master Spas employees. It's not the traveling spa show itself that gives you a bad reputation. It's the dishonesty that surrounds the show and Master Spas. The website shows pools, bbq's, furniture, etc. Go to the show and there are no pools and 2 bbqs next to a set of furniture. As a matter of fact, there is a Tuff Pool on the website, but your company does not sell Tuff Pools. When I asked your sales guy, he said the pool people pulled out at the last minute :lol:. The ads imply that multiple manufacturers are represented, which is obviously not true. I won't even get into the ridiculous lies that I heard while posing as a shopper, or that other customer's tell us.

I'm not here to pick a fight, but let's be honest. Watkins products are certainly not worse than Master Spas. Any independent service techs here wanna step up and make that claim? I doubt it. Fyi, I am in no way affiliated with Watkins and feel there are many arguments to be made for not purchasing them.

Of course the high volume of sales is a big factor. Watkins makes so many more hot tubs than secondary spa makers like Master. Its gotta be at least 5x as many when you factor in Hot Springs, Limelight, Caldera, and all the other brands. Factor in the fact they have a good reputation for quality and standing behind their product whereas Master doesn't and has to rely on the traveling circus show they use to dump product from town to town. Same thing with Jacuzzi/Sundance, they sell a lot of spas so you see a lot of posts about them. You're far better off getting a Hot Spring, Caldera, Jacuzzi, Sundance, D1, Marquis... than a Master (IMO of course).

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I'm Not a Master employee.

I was selling Four winds for years, Master does events in my area, remember i was ranting and raving about it on here??? I install the Masters they sell at the events and service them... it allowed me to mitigate the damage to my market by capturing the referral business, chemical sales etc...

I was worried cause all you guys going on about the Master brand but TBH we have delivered about 200 over the past 3 years from their traveling road show, and I wish we had more service on them... they use the Balboa packs and the Waterways pumps and jets, It's arguably the best component list you can buy... not much failure rate there and frankly other than the odd pump or heater I haven't had much go wrong, they are pretty solid tubs and frankly the Twilight series rocks... The pump pressure and a ton of the high flow jets with diverters to control water flow its an amazingly good performing tub... I think it is one of the best performing spa on the market right now. Certainly of the 10 Brands Master builds it is the top even though they claim the LSX series is to , and even the HL stuff is pretty good.

And no you are absolutely wrong about the hot springs stuff. Of the 55 manufacturers they are in the top 10 on Volume and probably account for 5%-7% of market share (at the best) yet they account for like 80% of the service requests on this and most forums.... The invensys heating and control system has had issue after issue, first it was heater relay boards and the auxiliary control panels. My hot springs dealer went bust here a long time ago and I serviced tons of them... the best thing about the Hot Springs tubs is the Marketing... especially their dominance of the online forums :)

The only thing you really ever hear bad about Master is the "traveling circus show they use to dump product from town to town" frankly anyone stupid enough buy at an event like that and then complain about service and backup is not that bright to start with...

Master has been good to deal with for issues... something goes wrong they send the part and pay the bill... don't know what else you would want...

Didn't they win the Better Business Bureau Torch award for marketplace ethics??? like the only spa company ever to win it???

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You also have to think about the nature of people. If someone has a Bobs Big Spa, with a problem, they may find a message board, but they may also have a tenancy to read a bit, and decide no one else there has a Bobs Big Spa...and move on. Yet with a Hot Springs, it's more.. HEY, lots of people here have these, I bet someone will be able to help me.

Additionally, if you do a Google search for, help repair Bobs Big Spa, how many results do you think will come up?

It's a lot more than just annual sales volume.

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Well, my hot tub from Hot Springs purchased 8/2/11 has been out of service for 7 total months now and I have a home in the high desert. When it's not leaking the control panel breaks. However, it is apparently now fixed...the guy that posts here must have had something to do with the responsiveness this week. I'd like to say my faith is restored, but I will wait until it is problem free for a year to say it is. He posted below this, I edited my comments today to reflect the fact it now may work.

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LMFAO

So your justification for all the requests for help on Broken Hot Springs spas is basically that only Hot Springs customers are smart enough to use the forums... Gulp Gulp Gulp... sorry man just getting some of that Kool Aid before its gone :)

Even if we agree that they sell 10% of all the spas in the US...which is a joke.... there are 50+ manufacturers and the top 10 likely share 30-40% of the market so the real number is likely 3-5% at best.

It still does not come even close to explaining the total wacko proportion of requests for broken spas on the forums.

All the bantering is wind... the hard numbers tell the tale.

Rwack we had the same issues here. I stopped servicing the line here because it was effecting our reputation, and we are golden in our market for back up and support.

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It's weird how one supposed independent tech who services tubs would look at a Master and think it's a well built tub and another tech, me, would look at them and see a tub that is kinda shoddily built and a huge energy hog in Northern Minnesota.

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way to wreck a newbs thread guys. he has a bunch of questions that are difficult to find ansers to and you turn it into another re-mix of the hot spring / master bashing. It's old. I considered master when shopping as they are sold by the largest pool / spa dealer in the area and we see almost none of them on CL or for sale. I wouldn't be afraid to own one but i don't.

that said, galosher, you are going to have a hard time owning a spa at you place. No because of the location or climate but because of your schedule. Spa's really require consistent maintenance of the chemicals and water. There are some methods that make life easier and could probably keep your spa going but leaving it unattended for a month is going to really hurt the life of your spa.

Things you can do to mitigate:

Salt water chlorine is as close to automated disinfection as you can get but it still will get out of whack unattended for 3-4 weeks. pH can get low easily in some systems like bromine with a floater if left unmonitored for long periods of time which will eat the heater and pumps.

I'm sure you can work out a solution but this is going to be your biggest hurdle.

Most of the major brands have a dicount line that i believe you can add in a BT stereo upgrade. These lines have more basic jets and have the bling stripped off. I'd start with sundance, hot spot (hot springs), etc but like was said above, unless you are an extreme DIY like me the dealer quality is a big deciding point.

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To True, sorry man, hard not to get caught up.

Roger yer a laugh... it uses the Balboa control and heating system and the Icynene full foam insulation system with waterways manifold plumbing, and active heat collection on the motors, we are northern Canada they seem to perform as good as it gets up here in our minus 40's ... its a well built energy efficient spa... I can only assume it must be down to experience or industry knowledge... but truth is you slag it off like all the dealers do becuase you hate them for hammering you on the expo events :-) do what I did, cut a deal to deliver and service them and recover you losses on that end.

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To hit on a question from Spa God that got overlooked: Yes- Catalina offers WiFi via Balboa. I can speak to that as a Catalina Dealer. I cannot speak to Beachcomber, though.

I think the points we can all agree upon is that any new spa purchaser should do their homework. And every sale needs to consider the quality of the dealer heavily when making their final decision.

Good luck going forward.

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I would check out Marquis Spas, one of the best constructed spas in the industry. There is a local service center in your area, and there is a factory store in Camarillo, CA, a little bit of a drive, but it may be worth the savings you will get. Most of the Marquis have a Wi-Fi option as well.

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Marquis stuff is good.

It was on my short list for a dealership, along with Master, and a few other lesser brands...

For me it Must have the holy trinity... Balboa controls and heating system, Waterways jets and fittings, and Icynene insulation... there is a very good reason these guys are expensive components and been around the longest...

Having spent 20+ years in this game I have manufactured, designed, and supplied hot tubs and swim spas, including dealing at the cheaper end including supplying Costco and the largest mass merchants in the world for almost a decade...

There is one thing I will guarantee you.. the component list is key and if they are not using the top gear in the build then you better have a good pitch, a solid marketing game, a big forum presence, and a lot of bells and whistles :-)

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