Bromine Level Problems

[sfb911]

Hello all,

I hope someone can help me understand what is going on here, because my local dealer seems to be of very little help in solving this problem. I recently (about 1 month ago) purchased a new Caldera hot tub, it has an ozone generator and is using the spa frog system (which the mineral cartridge and the bromine cartridge).

Since the very first week, we have been unable to maintain Bromine levels above .5. All of the water chemistry beyond Bromine tests out good and we have even added some SpaGuard Silken (recommended by dealer). Given our struggles, the dealer also had us try to add some Bromine concentrate about a week and a half ago (6 TSP for a 350 gallon spa). A few hours after doing this, we had the water tested at teh store and the Bromine level was over 5.

24 hours later, I tested again using the same tablet test (part of the BioGuard MultiTest) and the Bromine level was reading 0. I shocked using the non-chorine shock they gave me and there was no change in the Bromine.

On Friday, since it had been about a month, I changed the Frog Bromine cartidge and shocked the system (after some light use). The store tested the water yesterday and the Bromine level was .5

Their recommendation was to add more Bromine Concentrate so I added the recommended 2 Tablespoons and tested 30 minutes later with the tablet test and a strip test, both registered Bromine over 6.

I left tha spa cover open, but the system not running to let things gas off for about 4 hours and then tested again, Bromine levels on both the tablet and the strip test are 0-.5 (basically no color on either). There was 0 bather load during this time and on average, teh bather load is me, for 20-30 minutes a day and nobody else, every now and then 1-2 adults might join me (less than once a week).

I should also add that if i shock with the spa guard spa shock they gave me, the Bromine will go up to a readable level but then drop very quickly again. (Within 24 hours even with no use and covered). Additionally, I do get a fair bit of foam whenever I shock, nothing rediculous but its definetly noticable.

At this point, I'm completely confused (and more than a little bit frustrated). I had originally thought maybe the bromine level was too high and giving a false negative, but after I added the Bromine concentrate, it did spike so that seems to rule that out. (plus I'm using tablets).

Unfortunately, I don't think I'm going to get much more help from the dealer and I'm at a loss for what to do. I don't know if I should look to switch to Chlorine, stop using the spa guard products.....drain and start over....

I have to admit, what I thought was going to be a relaxing purchase that I could enjoy has turned into quite a source of frustration....so any help / suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[chem geek]

There are two possible issues here. First is that with a brand new tub you didn't decontaminate it. Spas are generally wet-tested at the factory and they don't generally blow out the piping to completely dry them out. So bacterial biofilms can form on the piping and there is often grease and other organic material in a new spa. When getting a new spa, it is best to decontaminate by using Spa System Flush or Ahh-Some and then possibly also super-chlorinate. See the Decontamination sticky. Even so, your first water change may come sooner due to release of additional materials into the spa (depending on how well the initial decontamination was done).

The second issue is that you are likely not using enough oxidizer for your bather load and it is also not clear whether you properly initially established a bromide bank. Without an initial bromide bank, then the added oxidizer will not produce enough bromine or not do so quickly enough. Most sodium bromide products say to dose with 1/2 ounce per 100 gallons. You say you have been soaking for 20-30 minutes and I presume that the spa is hot (104ºF). If so then that will usually require 5 to 8 ppm bromine to oxidizer your bather waste so you probably weren't adding enough oxidizer after your soaks. By getting behind, even adding oxidizer when you aren't soaking will have the bromine get used up quickly because there is still bather waste from your previous soaks that is not yet oxidized.

I presume you do not have an ozonator, do you? With an ozonator that is working properly, you would not need to dose with as much oxidizer after each soak and the ozonator may be able to provide a background level of bromine between soaks since it can oxidize bromide to bromine. Over time, you will need to add more sodium bromide to replenish the bromide bank or you can use bromine tabs in a floating feeder though that might be too much if your ozonator is on too frequently.

[sfb911]

Hello and thanks for the response.

I did not decontaminate - because well, my dealer told me fill her up and put this list of chemicals in, so I did what they said - obviously that was not the correct choice after looking at the sticky, but being new to this - I went with their recommendation.

I do have an ozonator and it runs 24/7 (basically its on with the system at least as far as I was told and I do constantly have a stream of bubbles coming from it), though I do not know how I would verify this - since as far as I can tell the caldera menus have no way for me to check the ozonator is running.

As far as building up the bromine bank - I was told initially all I needed was the frog system that I have (this thing here: http://www.calderaspas.com/en/accessories/water-care/frog/

The dealer did finally come back and after about 2 weeks of me going back and forth with him on the bromine level being too low (he stated 3-5 ppm and the caldera manual actually says 1-2 ppm if you're using their frog system), had me use brominating concentrate, initially 6 teaspoons for 350 gallons and then another 2 tablespoons of the concentrate about a week / week and a half later.

As far as shock, I have been using the spaguard shock (http://www.spaguard.com/Our_Products/Oxidizers/SpaGuard%C2%AE_Spa_Shock). The store told me to use 2 tablespoons once weekly under normal circumstances and if moderate / heavy use, use the same dose after that usage.

I'm getting the feeling despite their reputation (and having been in business for about 20 years selling pool / spa stuff in my neighborhood with good feedback) that these guys have led me down the wrong path with the spa maintenence?

Thanks,

sfb

[sfb911]

After re-reading my last post, I realize it was a bit too negative and while complaining about the problem is good, it doesn't solve the problem. So, I figured I should ask a constructive question or two

So, I think I understand part of the problem here is that the bromine bank either by the inline spa frog or what i've used for bromine concentrate is not enough to get my levels up high enough to properly sanitize. I assume then, that the next logical step would be to establish that bank to the point where when I shock the bromine level jumps high enough to do its job, properly go down and then maintain until the next shock, which should be after use. Assuming this is correct, a couple of questions:

Should I add more brominating concentrate until I achieve a certain level? If so, what is that level...I assume because I may not have had enough (based on dealer recommendation) I'm going to have to add a bit more than one would expect....is the proper approach here to add another dose, wait a while, test, etc until I can maintain 5-8 ppm for some period of time without shocking?

The bromine concentrate I have claims to have an oxidizer in it, so I should not shock, just add I assume?

I'd also like to know if anyone else has experience with the caldera inline spa frog system and whether its actually going to buy me anything.

I will probably end up having to drain sooner than I'd hoped and refill, but I'm hoping (and I could be wrong) I can stabalize things for a while and get through the summer (which will be relatively low use) before having to drain and fill again.

[chem geek]

If your ozonator is working properly, then if you create a bromide bank by adding sodium bromide from a product such as Leisure Time Sodium Bromide Reserve, Rendezvous Broma-Start, Natural Chemistry Sap Bromine Start, hth spa Brom-Start, SeaKlear Spa Sodium Bromide or Spa Specialties by Robarb Spa Bromine Energizer, then the ozone should be able to generate bromine for you. You might still need to add more bromine after your soak since ideally you want the ozonator to create just enough bromine to maintain it in between soaks so that you can go on vacation or otherwise not use the spa and it still be maintained for you.

The bromine concentrate is usually mostly Dichlor with some sodium bromide. They expect you to have started at least some bromide bank already or they expect that with continued use you would build up such a bromide bank and that initially you are using chlorine (Dichlor) though they don't tell you that. Bromine tabs in a floating feeder are where you get a more continual and slower dose of bromine that is closer to just bromine -- the most common tabs (BCDMH) are 50/50 bromine and chlorine so the chlorine oxidizes part of the bromide bank to produce bromine.

Since you plan on relatively low use during the summer, I'd suggest adding to the bromide bank and have your ozonator produce bromine. However, if you do soak, then add an oxidizer after your soak. How much to add is whatever it takes so that you don't run out of bromine so check the level the next day and make sure it didn't get too low. With a working ozonator, you shouldn't need to add as much as I had indicated after a soak.

As for the maintenance bromine level, 4 ppm is a decent target. The 5-8 I described was the amount of bromine equivalent you need to add or activate via an oxidizer to handle your bather waste -- it is not the target level in between soaks. And as I noted, with a functioning ozonator you shouldn't need to add that much bromine.

[mooonshine199]

Newbie!! I have EXACTLY the same problem with my new Caldera!!!! I purchased my Caldera with SpaFrog tech in August 2013, and it sounds like from the same couple of stooges. I have tried everything you did as well. I have also gotten crazy and drained my tub several times now as we do have a very heavy bather load. Myself, wife, and two small kids are in the thing daily. I've checked all the water chemistry daily for months and months. It seems when I add the "startup" Sodium Bromide, 2 oz measured, and a new bromine cartridge on the spa frog, with it dialed to 6, I get "ideal" levels of bromine for a couple days, The instructions say to then ratchet the spa-frog cartridge back a notch each day to keep it in the ideal range, but when I do that- it goes to zero....Si I ratchet it back to 6 and leave it there and still its only good for a day or two then it falls to zero. Most days I cannot see any color change on the dipstick whatsoever.

Now I've gotten "full body rash" and taken prednisone which helped, and itch like crazy. Other bathers have complained of feeling extra dry and itchy when they get out, but I'm the one that is either allergic to the bromine, or getting the worst of it...whatever it is... With the bromine levels showing close to nothing, I worry I've got a "gross" hot tub on my hands, but the water is crystal clear, 100 degrees all the time, smells fine not strong chemicals. I used to just hit a little non chlorine shock after each use, maybe 1/2-1 tblsp. But now I'm not sure if that's over doing it. Seems I couldn't get more than 3-4 weeks without needing a water change and that seems excessive... I'm less worried about the water cost, but the electricity to heat from 60-100 degrees, is starting to get expensive monthly!!! I too feel like this was supposed to be a relaxing thing, and now its a pain... Not sure what I'm doing wrong, if anything, or if I'm just allergic to Bromine.

So Today I bought the biguanide-based Leisure Time Free chemicals and I plan to drain (yet again tomorrow)...and see how that treats us. Nobody else in the family seems to have rash except me, although we do get the itchy dryness complaints. A trip to the Dermatologist is now on the list. The Hot tub is awesome aside from the fact that I can't enjoy it. :-)

So I will keep you posted on the biguanide-based system and how it works, as well as the derm results. But it negates the use of the spa-frog which is rather disappointing either way...

Did you find a solution to your problems yet? Any itching and/or rash? Let me know, thanks!

[mooonshine199]

Oh and to add, I also have the Ozonator installed and you can tell when its working because the low speed jets being on, you will see lots of small bubbles coming up from one of the water outlets. I think its the heater outlet. I have the "cd" style ozonator, the chip kind, so there's only one tube and you will either see bubbles if its working, or none if it's not. :-)

[sfb911]

Moonshine....sorry for your troubles. Honestly - I gave up on Bromine. I ditched the spa frog and switched to Chlorine shortly after I made this inquiry and quite frankly it has been the best decision I made. Its been super simple. I have had no issues since and we use the spa almost daily (1-3 bathers). I know some folks will disagree, but talk to your dealer, switch over and be done with it! I shock once a week and dose chlorine once a week and despite 'heavy' usage my spa is perfect. Just make sure when you switch (and I honestly hope you do!) that you get the correct shock.

It'll mean another drain and fill but trust me my friend, it is well worth it! You are right, the spa should be relaxing and quite frankly, bromine is a pain in the butt for little return!

Thanks,

Steve

[dlleno]

I've used a bromine spa for nearly 20 years, with ozone and brominating concentrate, with no such issues. in fact, my (old school UV style) ozone generator bit the dust I just managed without it. Note that when you start out with the granules you have a chlorine spa until the bromide bank builds up. Frankly if there is something wrong that causes the spa to eat bromine, a switch to chlorine won't solve that problem. I would concentrate on solving the problem itself first.

Certainly, you have to choose the sanitizer method that best fits your preferences. I don't find bromine to be a pain, as long as it's workings are understood, and I've never used a bromine floater.

that said, I will underscore Chem Geek's recommendation to decontaminate a new spa. Especially if it sits for several days in the summertime or at room temperature, in its drained form.

[farwellbooth]

Hello, I have a brand new (2 months now on initial water) Caldera Cantabria and running the spa frog system. My water has been crystal clear from day 1 using the inline spa frog.

You have to add the little packet(s) of residual bromine bank at the start. I never did an initial super clean out whatever and it has been fine.

I have my Spa Frog open at 4 (this is a large tub at 550 gallons however we don't have a large bather load) and this seems to keep up. If I don't add a little oxidizer (I use Leisure time renew tabs) after bathing the bromine will creep to zero. The Renew tabs are easy, all measured out and toss in the tub. You need to add oxidizer more often than weekly, at least I do with the Caldera and Spa Frog. Then I shock every Sunday with a higher dose/6 tabs of the renew tabs (now I'm using bleach, more below).

With my bromine spa frog set at 4, the cartridge would be empty at about 2 weeks. I have taken a couple of the Spa Frog cartridges apart and now running Leisure time bromine tabs inside of 1 of them with the original mineral frog running in line at the top. I've also switched the weekly shock to 3/4 cup of bleach from 6 tabs of Renew. I still use the renew tabs midweek after bathing so I don't have to mess with the bleach bottle. After shocking, the bromine goes up to 6 ish and I don't have to add any oxidizer for a few days.

Hope this helps, ping me if you want details on putting bromine tabs in spa frog cartridge. You also need to rinse your filter every couple weeks and soak in cleaner every month-ish. I throw in a splash of enzyme every week or so and this all seems to work well with the Caldara.

[CJN]

I was having the same problem with my spa. After trying many of the previous ideas and getting nowhere I finally discovered my problem. The spa frog aways ends up in a relative dead spot on the surface of the water. I tied my spa frog close to the pump outlet so it was in a constant stream bobbing up and down. Now I get enough bromine on the lowest setting where before I wasn't getting enough bromine even on the highest setting.